This site is interesting anymore.
If I said that to you...... a red message that we could not reply to would show up.
Sound doctrine is sure being rejected in this day and age.
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Saved by Grace Through Faith, Not by Works
- Thread starter Jim Parker
- Start date
If I said that to you...... a red message that we could not reply to would show up.
Sound doctrine is sure being rejected in this day and age.
Jim Parker
Member
I believe your understanding is flawed.
No work is "meritorious." Good works are what we were created to do. (Eph 2:10) One is not awarded "merit" for doing one's job.
Faith without works is like an airplane without wings.
Having faith includes being faithful to obey the LORD's commands.
Failure to obey the LORD's commands is prima facia evidence that, in fact, you do NOT have faith.
Jesus said several times that we will be judged based on the evidence of our good works.
John 5:28-29 (NKJV) … the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation.
Works will not save anyone.
Faith without works will not save anyone either.
Show me your faith without doing anything and I will show you my faith by what I do. (Jas 2:18)
(It's a trick challenge. You cannot show your faith without faithfully doing the works of the faithful.)
iakov the fool
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Jim Parker
Member
It most certainly is.
An example of unsound doctrine goes by "OSAS."
Once again, that's just not true.
Unbelief is disobedience as it is the same Greek word.
- Do you consider the King James to be an erroneous translation?
Seeing therefore it remaineth that some must enter therein, and they to whom it was first preached entered not in because of unbelief:
Hebrews 4:6 KJV
Since therefore it remains that some must enter it, and those to whom it was first preached did not enter because of disobedience,
Hebrews 4:6 NKJV
Unbelief is Disobedience.
Unbelief - Disobedience - Strong's G543 - apeitheia
The KJV translates Strong's G543 in the following manner: unbelief (4x), disobedient (3x).
- obstinacy, obstinate opposition to the divine will
For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief: G543
Rom 11:32
For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, G543 that he might have mercy upon all.
Eph 2:2
Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience: G543
Eph 5:6
Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience. G543
Col 3:6
For which things' sake the wrath of God cometh on the children of disobedience: G543
Heb 4:6
Seeing therefore it remaineth that some must enter therein, and they to whom it was first preached entered not in because of unbelief: G543
Heb 4:11
Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief. G543
JLB
Unbelief is disobedience as it is the same Greek word.
- Do you consider the King James to be an erroneous translation?
Seeing therefore it remaineth that some must enter therein, and they to whom it was first preached entered not in because of unbelief:
Hebrews 4:6 KJV
Since therefore it remains that some must enter it, and those to whom it was first preached did not enter because of disobedience,
Hebrews 4:6 NKJV
Unbelief is Disobedience.
Unbelief - Disobedience - Strong's G543 - apeitheia
The KJV translates Strong's G543 in the following manner: unbelief (4x), disobedient (3x).
- obstinacy, obstinate opposition to the divine will
For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief: G543
Rom 11:32
For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, G543 that he might have mercy upon all.
Eph 2:2
Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience: G543
Eph 5:6
Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience. G543
Col 3:6
For which things' sake the wrath of God cometh on the children of disobedience: G543
Heb 4:6
Seeing therefore it remaineth that some must enter therein, and they to whom it was first preached entered not in because of unbelief: G543
Heb 4:11
Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief. G543
JLB
Jim Parker
Member
Yep.Unbelief is disobedience as it is the same Greek word.
Seeing therefore it remaineth that some must enter therein, and they to whom it was first preached entered not in because of unbelief:
- Do you consider the King James to be an erroneous translation?
Hebrews 4:6 KJV
Since therefore it remains that some must enter it, and those to whom it was first preached did not enter because of disobedience,
Hebrews 4:6 NKJV
Unbelief is Disobedience.
Unbelief - Disobedience - Strong's G543 - apeitheia
The KJV translates Strong's G543 in the following manner: unbelief (4x), disobedient (3x).
- obstinacy, obstinate opposition to the divine will
Rom 11:30
For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief: G543
Rom 11:32
For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, G543 that he might have mercy upon all.
Eph 2:2
Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience: G543
Eph 5:6
Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience. G543
Col 3:6
For which things' sake the wrath of God cometh on the children of disobedience: G543
Heb 4:6
Seeing therefore it remaineth that some must enter therein, and they to whom it was first preached entered not in because of unbelief: G543
Heb 4:11
Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief. G543
JLB
Same word in the Greek translated to both "unbelief" and "disobedience."
Heb 4:6 - Textus Receptus: ἐπεὶ οὖν ἀπολείπεται τινὰς εἰσελθεῖν εἰς αὐτήν καὶ οἱ πρότερον εὐαγγελισθέντες οὐκ εἰσῆλθον δι᾽ ἀπείθειαν (apeitheian)
Morphological GNT: ἐπεὶ οὖν ἀπολείπεται τινὰς εἰσελθεῖν εἰς αὐτήν καὶ οἱ πρότερον εὐαγγελισθέντες οὐκ εἰσῆλθον δι’ ἀπείθειαν (apeitheian)
Col 3:6
For which things' sake the wrath of God cometh on the children of disobedience: G543
TR: δι᾽ ἃ ἔρχεται ἡ ὀργὴ τοῦ θεοῦ ἐπὶ τοὺς υἱοὺς τῆς ἀπειθείας (apeitheias)
MGNT: δι’ ἃ ἔρχεται ἡ ὀργὴ τοῦ θεοῦ ἐπὶ τοὺς υἱοὺς τῆς ἀπειθείας (apeitheias)
Heb 4:11
Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief. G543
TR: σπουδάσωμεν οὖν εἰσελθεῖν εἰς ἐκείνην τὴν κατάπαυσιν ἵνα μὴ ἐν τῷ αὐτῷ τις ὑποδείγματι πέσῃ τῆς ἀπειθείας (apeitheias)
MGNT: σπουδάσωμεν οὖν εἰσελθεῖν εἰς ἐκείνην τὴν κατάπαυσιν ἵνα μὴ ἐν τῷ αὐτῷ τις ὑποδείγματι πέσῃ τῆς ἀπειθείας (apeitheias)
When you're hot, you're hot.
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Jim Parker
Member
It was in response to the silliness: "It's interesting that the folks who say, " simply believing in Christ doesn't really save." But if you "simply stop believing in Him you will be unsaved." Or ......faith alone in Christ doesn't really save a person, But losing your faith alone in Christ will unsave you!"
That's the kind of drivel that a huckster uses to provide his marks with a little slogan to remember rather than encouraging them to be Bereans and consult the word.
It is bits and pieces of the truth but not the whole truth and is, therefore, only to mislead those who will not bother to diligently search the scriptures.
It is a very good example of the "messy mess" you mentioned.
I said this:
"What hasn't ever been proved is that those who believe for a while lose salvation. It remains an erroneous assumption.
"
A saved person HAS received eternal life. Agree or not?
Jesus said those He gives eternal life (that would be saved persons) will never perish. And your posts clearly indicate disagreement.
So the problem is that your views are in disagreement with what Jesus very clearly said. Out of step.
Jesus said this about that: "I give them (His sheep) eternal life and they shall never perish. Jn 10:28
Your view is that His sheep can become NOT His sheep. But that is REFUTED by His direct words. Once one of His sheep receive eternal life, they WILL NEVER PERISH.
Your view doesn't allow for that.
This is pure conjecture and assumption.
"What hasn't ever been proved is that those who believe for a while lose salvation. It remains an erroneous assumption.
"
lol No, it hasn't. The claim does not equal reality.
What HAS been proven is eternal security for EVERY SAVED PERSON.
A saved person HAS received eternal life. Agree or not?
Jesus said those He gives eternal life (that would be saved persons) will never perish. And your posts clearly indicate disagreement.
So the problem is that your views are in disagreement with what Jesus very clearly said. Out of step.
A mere assumption. No proof from Scripture. otoh, eternal security is PROVEN by what Jesus said in John 10:28.
Where is this total assumption found in Scripture. That one of His sheep become NOT one of His sheep any longer???
Jesus said this about that: "I give them (His sheep) eternal life and they shall never perish. Jn 10:28
Your view is that His sheep can become NOT His sheep. But that is REFUTED by His direct words. Once one of His sheep receive eternal life, they WILL NEVER PERISH.
Your view doesn't allow for that.
The real challenge is for someone to show from Scripture that one of His sheep can become NOT one of His sheep.
This is pure conjecture and assumption.
Irrelevant. Because WHEN they DID believe, they were given eternal life. And Jesus says those He gives eternal life will never perish.
Nathan
Member
The bigger challenge is for someone to show that those who do not hear Him or follow Him can actually be His sheep.
Jhn 10:27
My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me.
Did you notice the words "sometimes" or "at one time"?
Jesus said this about the coming of the Holy Spirit:
"And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another advocate to help you and be with you forever—" Jn 14:16
It seems your view is that the Holy Spirit will not be with us forever.
In spite of Eph 1:13,14
13 And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit,
14 who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of his glory.
When the colored phrases are finally absorbed, one will realize that once sealed with the Holy Spirit, it is permanent, and our inheritance is GUARANTEED, for the day of redemption, as God's possession.
Please explain how a saved person, one who has received eternal life, CAN perish. That would be interesting.
Esp since Jesus said those He gives eternal life will never perish in Jn 10:28.
It's not nice to refer to the teaching of Jesus as "unsound doctrine".
He said those He gives eternal life will never perish in John 10:28.
What Jesus said goes directly against the claim that a saved person CAN perish.
I've never said they could be.
The point remains: those Jesus gives eternal life (that would be all believers, btw) will never perish.
How is that NOT eternal security? Please explain.
Nathan
Member
I am not sure what you are thinking honestly, but I know that those who hear His voice and follow Him have eternal life and will not perish - that is eternal security.
Those who do not hear His voice, and those who do not follow Him are not His sheep and do not have eternal life.
Pretty simple and straight forward.
Do you hear His voice and follow Him?
Please don't miss the point of v.28. It is to ALL that receive eternal life who SHALL NEVER PERISH.
You're putting conditions where there aren't any.
In v.28, between RECEIVING eternal life and NEVER PERISHING, there are NO CONDITIONS. Period.
Yes, the condition for the Holy Spirit to be given to us is: Believe.
We agree on this point.
What I have been asking you for, and you have failed to produce is scriptures that validate your unbiblical theory, which states that those who do not believe, any longer, still have the same benefits as those who believe, which is the Holy Spirit, the Spirit of Eternal Life in Christ Jesus.
Again, please post the scriptures that support your theory, belief, point of view, which you promote in this Forum, which is;
Those who do not believe, any longer still have Eternal Life in Christ.
Being in Christ is how we have access to eternal life.
- Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, according to the promise of life which is in Christ Jesus, 2 Timothy 1:1
The promise of eternal life, are to those in Christ.
Those who are in Christ, are told to remain in Christ, or be cast into the fire and burned.
If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. John 15:6
- In Christ = Eternal Life
- Removed from Christ = Eternal Damnation; Cast into the fire and burned.
Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit.
John 15:2
- Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away;
JLB
Are you now promoting that His sheep can not become lost?
4 “What man of you, having a hundred sheep, if he loses one of them, does not leave the ninety-nine in the wilderness, and go after the one which is lost until he finds it? 5 And when he has found it, he lays it on his shoulders, rejoicing. 6 And when he comes home, he calls together his friends and neighbors, saying to them, ‘Rejoice with me, for I have found my sheep which was lost!’ 7 I say to you that likewise there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine just persons who need no repentance. Luke 15:4-7
Principle: A sheep who becomes lost, must repent or be as a sinner.
Lost = Sinner who is need of repentance; dead to God, in need of salvation, reconciliation to God.
Found = Someone is is reconciled to God; saved.
again
22 “But the father said to his servants, ‘Bring out the best robe and put it on him, and put a ring on his hand and sandals on his feet. 23 And bring the fatted calf here and kill it, and let us eat and be merry; 24 for this my son was dead and is alive again; he was lost and is found.’ And they began to be merry.
Luke 15:22-24
The same principle: The son had to repent, which is return to the father, or remain lost: dead to the faith.
- your brother was dead and is alive again, and was lost and is found.’”
Lost = Sinner who is need of repentance; dead to God, in need of salvation, reconciliation to God.
Found = Someone is is reconciled to God; saved.
- Lost Sheep:
- Lost Coin:
- Prodigal Son
Luke 15:32
This foundational truth can not be "explained away" by quoting other scriptures.
JLB
Nathan
Member
No, I'm not putting conditions anywhere. Just stating the clear words that Jesus said. Are you putting conditions on His words?
His sheep hear His voice and follow Him. Those who are not hearing His voice and are not following Him are not His sheep. He specifically states that it is His sheep that He gives eternal life to and who will not perish. He never stated that He gave eternal life to those who did not hear His voice and follow Him.
Do you find that somewhere it is written that those who do not hear His voice and do not follow Him have eternal life? I have never found that written anywhere.
Jhn 10:27-28
My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand.
If you do not hear His voice and do not follow Him you are not His sheep.
I HAVE produced verses that show eternal security, but they have been rejected or ignored, or just missed because of closed eyes. Which isn't my problem.
I said this in post #2509 above:
"It seems your view is that the Holy Spirit will not be with us forever.
In spite of Eph 1:13,14
13 And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit,
14 who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of his glory.
When the colored phrases are finally absorbed, one will realize that once sealed with the Holy Spirit, it is permanent, and our inheritance is GUARANTEED, for the day of redemption, as God's possession."
So your repeated challenge only shows that you've failed to deal with these 2 verses.
The indwelling Holy Spirit is permanent. You've failed to prove otherwise.
I've shown, you've rejected. Not my problem.
The verses used for being taken out of union with Christ are about loss of fellowship with the Lord. Not loss of salvation.
I asked this:
"Where is this total assumption found in Scripture. That one of His sheep become NOT one of His sheep any longer???"
But, to your point, let's take a look at all your so-called "proof texts":
So, I'll take this as a non answer. You've got no support from Scripture for your opinions.
The reality is that the son remained the son throughout. As did the father.
Here is a foundational truth: those given eternal life by Jesus will never perish. John 10:28
Here is some sad truth: your view is that some given eternal life by Jesus WILL perish. Totally opposed to what Jesus said.
"Where is this total assumption found in Scripture. That one of His sheep become NOT one of His sheep any longer???"
Once more, firing off unrelated questions to a question is no way to have a discussion.
But, to your point, let's take a look at all your so-called "proof texts":
Nothing here about a sheep who became NOT one of His sheep any longer.
So, I'll take this as a non answer. You've got no support from Scripture for your opinions.
This sentence doesn't make any sense to me. We're ALL "as a sinner". So please re-word the sentence so that it makes some sense.
Another failed attempt to show a sheep becoming NOT one of His sheep.
The reality is that the son remained the son throughout. As did the father.
Without any explanation, I have no idea what your opinion of this verse is. So we'll just leave it there.
No explanation, so we'll just leave it there.
This is hilarious! That's exactly what you've been doing all along. Quoting other Scriptures as if they, without any explanation or exegesis, prove your opinions.
Here is a foundational truth: those given eternal life by Jesus will never perish. John 10:28
Here is some sad truth: your view is that some given eternal life by Jesus WILL perish. Totally opposed to what Jesus said.