Essential vs Nonessential

[FreeGrace]

The reason I ask for a one-on-one is because I do not have time to sit at the computer at long lengths. At 86 I am still active and usually I do not read(as many do not) l o n g posts. On the regular thread numerous posts cover up the last post one has made. On the one on one we can state our position, be absent from the screen for as long as one wishes and return as time allows without interruption of intervening posts of others. In addition any who are interested can read all we both write.

Just skip those posts that are from others who haven't posted to you. Not hard to do. And everyone can still read all that each of us posts.

Now, for Jn.5:24. I am not ignoring it. My point is (and none have addressed it) that your side of the aisle has added a word to the verse which no version does. THE WORD "MOMENT" is NOT there, you have added it. The discussion should be at what point in one's BELIEF is one saved. This also includes the question as to whether one can lose the promise of eternal life in this life or not.

I think this is being picky beyond reason.

It's the CONCEPT that I'm pointing out. Jesus said whoever believes HAS eternal life. He directly links believing WITH possession of eternal ilfe. Since Rom 6:23 says eternal life is a gift of God, and Jesus said in John 10:28 that He gives eternal life, it SHOULD BE OBVIOUS to anyone that eternal life is received WHEN one believes. How would that not be the case? Please enlighten me.

My challenge is to you or any on your side of the aisle, it makes no difference.
God bless

There is no challenge. Jesus was clear in John 5:24 about WHEN one HAS eternal life. WHEN they believe.

Or, from the MOMENT they believe. There is no difference, to borrow 2 words from your last point in your post.

So, your so-called "challenge" to cite a verse that uses the word "MOMENT" is a nothing burger.

 

[chessman]

The discussion should be at what point in one's BELIEF is one saved.

Easy, "now".

Ephesians 2:8-9 For by grace you are saved through faith, and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God; it is not from works, so that no one can boast.​

Paul even tells us by what power we have been saved, namely the by the blood of Christ.

Ephesians 2:13 But now in Christ Jesus you, the ones who once were far away, have become near by the blood of Christ.​

This also includes the question as to whether one can lose the promise of eternal life in this life or not.

Easy too: Nobody who has been given eternal life will ever perish. Period.

John 10:28 And I give them eternal life, and they will never perish forever, and no one will seize them out of my hand. ​

 

[billybalke]

Easy, "now".

Ephesians 2:8-9 For by grace you are saved through faith, and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God; it is not from works, so that no one can boast.​

Paul even tells us by what power we have been saved, namely the by the blood of Christ.

Ephesians 2:13 But now in Christ Jesus you, the ones who once were far away, have become near by the blood of Christ.​

Easy too: Nobody who has been given eternal life will ever perish. Period.
As I said, lets take this to the one on one. Your scriptures are easily answered when we "rightly divide the word of truth".

John 10:28 And I give them eternal life, and they will never perish forever, and no one will seize them out of my hand. ​

Easy, "now".

Ephesians 2:8-9 For by grace you are saved through faith, and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God; it is not from works, so that no one can boast.​

Paul even tells us by what power we have been saved, namely the by the blood of Christ.

Ephesians 2:13 But now in Christ Jesus you, the ones who once were far away, have become near by the blood of Christ.​

Easy too: Nobody who has been given eternal life will ever perish. Period.

John 10:28 And I give them eternal life, and they will never perish forever, and no one will seize them out of my hand. ​

Easy, "now".

Ephesians 2:8-9 For by grace you are saved through faith, and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God; it is not from works, so that no one can boast.​

Paul even tells us by what power we have been saved, namely the by the blood of Christ.

Ephesians 2:13 But now in Christ Jesus you, the ones who once were far away, have become near by the blood of Christ.​

Easy too: Nobody who has been given eternal life will ever perish. Period.

John 10:28 And I give them eternal life, and they will never perish forever, and no one will seize them out of my hand. ​

 

[billybalke]

Hi Chessman. Your scriptures just posted may be easily answered when we "rightly divide the word of truth". Lets take this to the one on one!!

 

[chessman]

Your scriptures just posted may be easily answered

The Scriptures I posted were not questions. Rather they are, simple, straightforward truth statements that directly answered the posters two questions.

Lets take this to the one on one!!

Why, there is no debate.

If you are aware of how it is that someone who has been given eternal life now, yet can perish later, then simply post the passage that says so.

 

[WIP]

With all respect, it seems to me from your questions that you've not actually accepted the principle that God does discipline His children.

My last post regarding this issue explained from Scripture what can be known about the reality of God's discipline.

We cannot know when God is disciplining believers. Or how. Because the Bible doesn't give us that information.

I have explained that there is suffering for discipline and suffering for blessing. That's all I can do.

Do you believe that God disciplines His disobedient children, or just casts them into hell?

Here's what I'm trying to understand. What is the purpose of discipline? Is it for the sake of punishment? I don't believe so. I believe discipline is for the purpose of redirecting someone toward a correct path. The problem that I'm struggling with is knowing the difference between God's discipline and suffering for Christ. We know that it is essential to suffer for Christ in this world because to live of this world is contrary to living for Christ. But if one is facing hardship and strife while living for Christ it can and often does result in redirecting a Christian away from God just as dscipline from God can and hopefully will redirect a person toward righteousness. As humans then we are pulled in a tug-of-war between God and ourselves and Satan. So how does one know the difference?

 

[billybalke]

The Scriptures I posted were not questions. Rather they are, simple, straightforward truth statements that directly answered the posters two questions.


Why, there is no debate.

If you are aware of how it is that someone who has been given eternal life now, yet can perish later, then simply post the passage that says so.

I didn't say the scriptures you posted were "questions". I said you have to "rightly divide" God's word". You are not doing so. If you think its the moment one believes then produce the scripture.

It seem your side of this question is afraid of the one on one. Why?

 

[FreeGrace]

Hi Chessman. Your scriptures just posted may be easily answered when we "rightly divide the word of truth". Lets take this to the one on one!!

I think everyone would benefit from your answers in this thread.

 

[FreeGrace]

Here's what I'm trying to understand. What is the purpose of discipline? Is it for the sake of punishment? I don't believe so. I believe discipline is for the purpose of redirecting someone toward a correct path.

I believe Heb 12 shows that God uses suffering for both discipline and punishment. iow, He spanks His children. Is a spanking just discipline or punishment? The point is, that one will suffer under both discipline and punishment. The Bible speaks of the "wrath of God" toward His children who rebel. That would be punishment.

The problem that I'm struggling with is knowing the difference between God's discipline and suffering for Christ.

I don't think anyone can know the difference regarding others. But regarding ourselves, when we are under suffering, it's always a good idea to check ourselves. Do we have unconfessed sin? Have we been disobedient? etc.

Just as Job had no idea where his suffering came from (Satan), we may find ourselves in the same situation. But when his 3 "friends" all thought he had unconfessed sin that he needed to deal with, Job was steadfast in his denial of that possibility. And he was right.

We know that it is essential to suffer for Christ in this world because to live of this world is contrary to living for Christ. But if one is facing hardship and strife while living for Christ it can and often does result in redirecting a Christian away from God just as dscipline from God can and hopefully will redirect a person toward righteousness. As humans then we are pulled in a tug-of-war between God and ourselves and Satan. So how does one know the difference?[/QUOTE]
If one's suffering cannot be linked to disobedience or unconfessed sin, then consider it a blessing from God, to strengthen your faith and character.

I know of no other way.

 

[FreeGrace]

I didn't say the scriptures you posted were "questions". I said you have to "rightly divide" God's word". You are not doing so.

Then please enlighten the entire thread.

 

[billybalke]

I think everyone would benefit from your answers in this thread.

Perhaps everyone would be enlightened by a one on one. Are you ready Free?

 

[JLB]

Of course we will.

Are you willing to admit to the entire forum that you've kept EVERY COMMANDMENT perfectly from your birth?

If not, why not? The reason is because of choice. You chose NOT TO is why you haven't. The same for all of us.

And option means a choice. If there are no options, then there is not choice. Simple as that.

So your entire argument is faulty.

Have you fulfilled these verses perfectly from birth?

If not, how are you going to get into heaven?

Please give us all the post number where I said I have kept EVERY COMMANDMENT perfectly from your birth?

This is the problem.

You know the scriptures themselves completely refute your unbiblical theory about eternal life, so you try and shift the subject to me personally, because you have no biblical answer.

Which is why I will only discuss what the scriptures say, rather than your opinion.

So far you have never proven from the scriptures that born again Christians can live immoral disobedient lives in unrepentant sin and inherit eternal life.

Whoever says
“I know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. 1 John 2:3-4

The condition or test of knowing Him is: if we obey Him

To be forgiven our sins we must confess them to be cleansed.


JLB

 

[FreeGrace]

Perhaps everyone would be enlightened by a one on one. Are you ready Free?

For me, every post is a one on one. Are you ready?

 

[atpollard]

26 But you do not believe, because you are not of My sheep, as I said to you. 27 My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. 28 And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. John 10:26-28

Is it significant that Jesus says that the reason they "do not believe" is BECAUSE they are "not of My sheep" rather than saying they are "not of My sheep" because they "do not believe"?

 

[billybalke]

YES. Acts 16:31. You do know that the English words you read were translated from Greek? The Aorist tense of "believe" says the MOMENT we believe we will be saved.

Look it up. Study a bit. Get a good basic Greek study guide.

Why not read the entire context of Acts 16?

 

[Papa Zoom]

Strange, no one on your side of the aisle will touch the one on one.

Please answer regarding Jn.5:24: Is there a scripture, any scripture which says the "MOMENT" one believer one eternal life??? Yes, or no??? If so produce it. If not admit it. Why is this request so difficult for you folk??

I will

 

[gr8grace3]

Why not read the entire context of Acts 16?

I answered your question. Yes. There is scripture that say the MOMENT we believe we are saved. Act 16:31. If we deny the strict and unambiguous meaning of the common Greek IN WHICH IT WAS WRITTEN and think that Acts 16:31 was originally penned in English and has to meet the English language (ambiguous at times)standard.........we miss out on a LOT of truths. One of which is~~~we are saved the moment we believe. Acts 16:31.

YES. Acts 16:31 PROVES we are saved the moment we believe.

Look it up. Study it a bit. Get a good basic Greek grammar study guide.

 

[billybalke]

I answered your question. Yes. There is scripture that say the MOMENT we believe we are saved. Act 16:31. If we deny the strict and unambiguous meaning of the common Greek IN WHICH IT WAS WRITTEN and think that Acts 16:31 was originally penned in English and has to meet the English language (ambiguous at times)standard.........we miss out on a LOT of truths. One of which is~~~we are saved the moment we believe. Acts 16:31.

YES. Acts 16:31 PROVES we are saved the moment we believe.

Look it up. Study it a bit. Get a good basic Greek grammar study guide.

You did not answer the question. Acts 16:31 does not read "the moment you believe".

Perhaps you should be asked this question: Is anything included in the word "believe" in Jn.5:24 or even Acts 16:31?

 

[atpollard]

Deleted waste or time

 

[atpollard]

You did not answer the question. Acts 16:31 does not read "the moment you believe".

Perhaps you should be asked this question: Is anything included in the word "believe" in Jn.5:24 or even Acts 16:31?

In Acts 16:31, can they believe and not be saved? Where does it say that?

How long must they believe before 'saved' takes effect? Where does it say that?