When does a believer receive eternal life?

[Pegasus]

So, I'll summarize. In 2 Cor 5:10, we know that all believers will stand before the Judgment Seat of Christ. " For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each of us may receive what is due us for the things done while in the body, whether good or bad."

Which is expanded on here:

1 Corinthians 3: NKJV

9 For we are God’s fellow workers; you are God’s field, you are God’s building. 10 According to the grace of God which was given to me, as a wise master builder I have laid the foundation, and another builds on it. But let each one take heed how he builds on it. 11 For no other foundation can anyone lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 Now if anyone builds on this foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw, 13 each one’s work will become clear; for the Day will declare it, because it will be revealed by fire; and the fire will test each one’s work, of what sort it is. 14 If anyone’s work which he has built on it endures, he will receive a reward. 15 If anyone’s work is burned, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.

 

[Pegasus]

If anyone could meet the criteria by continuance in doing good, then salvation and eternal life would be earned, and there would be no need for Jesus Christ and His sacrifice.

Game, match, set. This above.

 

[Papa Zoom]

More on Eternal Security from God's Word:

John 10:27-29 ESV /
My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand.

John 6:37 ESV /
All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out.

John 5:24 ESV /
Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life.

Romans 11:29 ESV
For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.

Jude 1:24 ESV
Now to him who is able to keep you from stumbling and to present you blameless before the presence of his glory with great joy,

1 John 5:13 ESV
I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God that you may know that you have eternal life.

2 Corinthians 1:22 ESV
And who has also put his seal on us and given us his Spirit in our hearts as a guarantee.

Romans 8:38-39 ESV
For I am sure that neither death nor life, nor angels nor rulers, nor things present nor things to come, nor powers, nor height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Philippians 1:6 ESV
And I am sure of this, that he who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ.

Ephesians 1:13 ESV
In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit,

Ephesians 4:30 ESV
And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.


You cannot lose that which you have been given from God. And by the power of the HS that seals you, you will not fall. You will not stumble. You will run the race with endurance. Because the HS is at work in the heart of every true believer.

 

[Runner]

We are saved by grace alone. Nothing else adds to salvation and nothing else takes away. It's a free gift of God and it's a permanent gift.

But this begs the question, doesn't it? The Catholic Church, the most frequent target of supposedly teaching salvation by works, emphatically denies this: https://www.catholic.com/qa/why-does-the-church-teach-that-works-can-obtain-salvation ("The Catholic Church has never taught such a doctrine and, in fact, has constantly condemned the notion that men can earn or merit salvation. Catholic soteriology (salvation theology) is rooted in apostolic Tradition and Scripture and says that it is only by God's grace--completely unmerited by works--that one is saved.").

The question being begged is: Is salvation permanent from the instant one believes (OSAS) or is it permanent only if one continues to believe to the end (OSNAS)? In the OSNAS understanding (or at least my understanding of the OSNAS understanding), continuing to believe is not a matter of doing "enough" good works, "more" good works than bad works, "meriting" salvation, "adding to" salvation, or anything of the kind. One makes one's faith alive and demonstrates the genuineness of one's belief by continuing on a path of righteousness "with divine grace through Jesus Christ" (to quote the Catholic site). It's a fine distinction, but a critical one.

To my mind, if the issue were as easily settled as quoting Bible verses, OSNAS would not have remained the understanding of all of Christianity for 1,500 years. Once one accepts a Calvinistic understanding of predestination (which I don't), one is essentially forced into an OSAS position. Obviously, God's predestined elect are never going to be lost after turning to Christ. This then got expanded into the full-tilt Free Grace movement, but it was never the understanding of the early Christians or 1,500+ years of their successors.

 

[Runner]

You cannot lose that which you have been given from God. And by the power of the HS that seals you, you will not fall. You will not stumble.

I wish THAT were true!

 

[FreeGrace]

please do not interfere reba

 

[FreeGrace]

Papa Zoom said: ↑
You cannot lose that which you have been given from God. And by the power of the HS that seals you, you will not fall. You will not stumble.

I wish THAT were true!

One doesn't have to wish it to be true. The Bible says it, so it is true.

Rom 6:23 - For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Rom 11:29 - for God’s gifts and his call are irrevocable.
Eph 1:13-14
13 And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit,
14 who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of his glory.
John 3:15,16, 5:24, 6:47 all say whoever believes HAS eternal life. That means a present possession.
John 10:28 - I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand.

From Jn 3:15,16,5:24 and 6:47 we know that when one believes, they have eternal life.
From Jn 10:28 we know who gives the believer eternal life; Jesus Christ. And He says those He gives eternal life shall never perish.

Please don't believe the lie that if something sounds too good to be true, it isn't true. When the Bible says it, you can count on it being true.

Eternal security is true. The Bible is clear that we are eternally secure.

 

[Runner]

Papa Zoom said: ↑
You cannot lose that which you have been given from God. And by the power of the HS that seals you, you will not fall. You will not stumble.

One doesn't have to wish it to be true. The Bible says it, so it is true.

Never stumble, do you? Boy, that must be nice! Skeptical sort that I am, I'd have to follow you around for a month or so and interview several of your friends and relatives to confirm this. BTW, I didn't see anything in the verses you cited about never stumbling.

Please don't believe the lie that if something sounds too good to be true, it isn't true. When the Bible says it, you can count on it being true.

Eternal security is true. The Bible is clear that we are eternally secure.

But again, we have the "minor" issues that 1,500 years of Christians didn't see this in the Bible, it began with the Calvinistic view of predestination, and it exploded into a modern Free Grace movement that has been widely condemned as being precisely "too good to be true." I guess Clement, Polycarp, Origen, Aquinas, et al., just weren't too good at reading the Bible, huh?

 

[Papa Zoom]

But this begs the question, doesn't it? The Catholic Church, the most frequent target of supposedly teaching salvation by works, emphatically denies this: https://www.catholic.com/qa/why-does-the-church-teach-that-works-can-obtain-salvation ("The Catholic Church has never taught such a doctrine and, in fact, has constantly condemned the notion that men can earn or merit salvation. Catholic soteriology (salvation theology) is rooted in apostolic Tradition and Scripture and says that it is only by God's grace--completely unmerited by works--that one is saved.").

The question being begged is: Is salvation permanent from the instant one believes (OSAS) or is it permanent only if one continues to believe to the end (OSNAS)? In the OSNAS understanding (or at least my understanding of the OSNAS understanding), continuing to believe is not a matter of doing "enough" good works, "more" good works than bad works, "meriting" salvation, "adding to" salvation, or anything of the kind. One makes one's faith alive and demonstrates the genuineness of one's belief by continuing on a path of righteousness "with divine grace through Jesus Christ" (to quote the Catholic site). It's a fine distinction, but a critical one.

To my mind, if the issue were as easily settled as quoting Bible verses, OSNAS would not have remained the understanding of all of Christianity for 1,500 years. Once one accepts a Calvinistic understanding of predestination (which I don't), one is essentially forced into an OSAS position. Obviously, God's predestined elect are never going to be lost after turning to Christ. This then got expanded into the full-tilt Free Grace movement, but it was never the understanding of the early Christians or 1,500+ years of their successors.

In a nut shell, my view is this: God saves, God keeps. When I read the verses I quoted, and see we are sealed by the HS, adopted as sons, the work in us will be completed by HIM, and on and on, I can't help but conclude that a truly saved person will walk in HIM and endure - by the power of God it will be done. This seems clear from the whole of Scripture. And we who believe, ought to be encouraging one another unto good works instead of fighting over an theological issue that will never be resolved. If only the same amount of effort were put into serving others in the way Christ called us to do. That would be something.

 

[chessman]

Go ahead and post the scriptures about the Day of Judgement and the things done in the mind so we can all discuss them.

Okay, I love to give Thanks to God through Jesus Christ our Lord . Thank the Lord, there is no judgment day nor condemnation for the sins of the mind of genuine believers.

Romans 7:25 -8:1 Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, I myself with my mind am enslaved to the law of God, but with my flesh I am enslaved to the law of sin. Consequently, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. ​

Can you explain, given your view, how there remains condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus? (others, of course, but not yourself obviously).

On my view; you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God lives in you. And if the Spirit of the one who raised Jesus from the dead lives in you, the one who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also make alive your mortal bodies through his Spirit who lives in you.
Thus eternal life is indeed given the moment the Spirit of God lives in you (every genuine believer) in the mind. Later restored with the resurrection and glorified body and both live immortal restored, rendered.
Simple. (i would say the P-word but it's been banded like referring to one article of the Sof.)

And if you think any future sins of the body re-condem and remove eternal life given to the mind of genuine believers, you should understand that the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free (aorist, simple occurrence, past in time) from the law of sin and death.

Now that's freedom I can stand and swear by.

 

[Papa Zoom]

I wish THAT were true!

I believe it is. But that belief doesn't make me lazy about being a follower, it encourages me on to greater works. Everyday is another day to live and serve God in some small way. Cups of cold water to everyone! A good work is loving one's neighbor and seeking to love them as God has loved us. God is love and we are made in His image so it our natural intended state to be loving. The fall certainly messed that up but as image bearers, we can love as God intended by allowing the Holy Spirit to do it's work in us.

 

[Papa Zoom]

Never stumble, do you? Boy, that must be nice! Skeptical sort that I am, I'd have to follow you around for a month or so and interview several of your friends and relatives to confirm this. BTW, I didn't see anything in the verses you cited about never stumbling.



But again, we have the "minor" issues that 1,500 years of Christians didn't see this in the Bible, it began with the Calvinistic view of predestination, and it exploded into a modern Free Grace movement that has been widely condemned as being precisely "too good to be true." I guess Clement, Polycarp, Origen, Aquinas, et al., just weren't too good at reading the Bible, huh?

I think this refers to stumbling away from His Grace. I don't think it means we won't mess up in life. Yelling at the spouse is a stumble and I did that yesterday. We're good today cuz I said sorry.

 

[reba]

Said sorry ? are you really sorry

 

[chessman]

I guess Clement, Polycarp, Origen, Aquinas, et al., just weren't too good at reading the Bible, huh?

There were more apostolic church fathers than these (Origen and Aquinas came way later,BTW). Timothy, for example was a 'son' of Paul's. Paul's my fav early church father as he had a Helper with his writings.

We just don't have "100%" of their writings (even Paul's) for you to be making such sweeping claims that every one of them were anti-OSAS. Which you've even admitted that your claims are probability based anyway.

Not to mention that you haven't made a case from Ployarp's writings (for example) on what he taught on the subject. You're just quoting what other people say about his views on the subject. Just because the church in Rome keep these four's writings secure does NOT mean there were not some that differed in their opinions.
It just means we don't have their writings (for various reasons to include their burning). Nor would it matter. It matters what the Scriptures say.

Paul was Timothy's spiritual father. I'm with Paul and Timothy as far as proper doctrine and Gospel goes. I like reading most of the Apostolic fathers (and there's only a hand full that we have writings from) more for how they understood the Greek than the doctrine itself.

BTW, I didn't see anything in the verses you cited about never stumbling.

See, it takes Scripture to convince any of us, and rightly so. And outside of the handful we have writings from that actually met Apostles, we all have access to the same Scripture.

BTW, stumbling isn't the issue. Eternal life and the shameful potential for losing it (or not) is:

Romans 9:33 just as it is written, “Behold, I am laying in Zion a stone that causes people to stumble, and a rock that causes them to fall, and the one who believes in him will not be put to shame.” ​

 

[JLB]

And the verses that speak of believers receiving Eternal Life, indeed salvation, prior to The Judgment show us .... what?

They show us we have salvation by faith and we are given His Spirit to lead us in the way of righteousness.

If we choose, after having been given a new nature empowered by His Spirit, to walk according to His Spirit and obey righteousness then on the Day of Judgement we will receive eternal life.

However If we choose, after having been given a new nature empowered by His Spirit, to walk according to the lustful desires of our flesh and obey unrighteousness then on the Day of Judgement we will receive indignation and wrath.

• eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality; Romans 2:7

JLB

 

[Hermit]

 

[JLB]

Good grief i see nothing wrong with giving a reference to scripture ...hover over it and it appears ... giving a scripture reference /or copy and paste is acceptable ..

Since it is such a controversial topic with both sides claiming the scriptures as proof then somebody's perception of what the scriptures say is wrong.

Talking in endless circles with no scripture is senseless.

I have come to know from experience that what Freegrace states as his opinion is not what the scripture says.

Example:

Eternal life is an irrevocable gift of God.
Romans 11:29 & Romans 6:23

Neither of these scriptures say this.


JLB

 

[reba]

To my understanding ...a difference of opinion is just that .. we here are all Christians it is not them vs. us.. we are all in Christ... I so wish we ( self included) could discuss this with out the fire .. with out the snarks...like no need for a mod

 

[JLB]

Romans 7:25 -8:1 Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, I myself with my mind am enslaved to the law of God, but with my flesh I am enslaved to the law of sin. Consequently, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.
Can you explain, given your view, how there remains condemnation for those who are in Christ

Okay, I love to give Thanks to God through Jesus Christ our Lord . Thank the Lord, there is no judgment day nor condemnation for the sins of the mind of genuine believers.

Romans 7:25 -8:1 Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, I myself with my mind am enslaved to the law of God, but with my flesh I am enslaved to the law of sin. Consequently, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. ​

Can you explain, given your view, how there remains condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus? (others, of course, but not yourself obviously).

On my view; you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God lives in you. And if the Spirit of the one who raised Jesus from the dead lives in you, the one who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also make alive your mortal bodies through his Spirit who lives in you.
Thus eternal life is indeed given the moment the Spirit of God lives in you (every genuine believer) in the mind. Later restored with the resurrection and glorified body and both live immortal restored, rendered.
Simple. (i would say the P-word but it's been banded like referring to one article of the Sof.)

And if you think any future sins of the body re-condem and remove eternal life given to the mind of genuine believers, you should understand that the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free (aorist, simple occurrence, past in time) from the law of sin and death.

Now that's freedom I can stand and swear by.

No reference to the Day of Judgement in your post.

 

[reba]

JLB you have used Scripture references now so drop the complaining

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