Cessationism- have tongues and prophecy ceased, or are they still active?

[Jim Parker]

Jim..........Eph 4~~"till we all come to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a perfect man(Jim says that this is when the kingdom comes), to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ(Jim says this is when the kingdom comes);

OK
Name one person since Christ who is/was as perfect as Christ, who has/had all the fullness of Deity.
I'll wait.

"The perfect" is Gods finished word to us.

Really?
Which one.
The Aramaic?
The Greek?
The Hebrew?

I hope you are aware that every translation from the original language is IMperfect.

 

[MarkT]

But the problem with this view is that "that which isperfect" here is neuter gender. If "that which is perfect" was a reference to the return of Christ, Paul would have used the masculine gender.

Because he is speaking of perfection when he says, 'when the perfect comes, the imperfect will pass away.' Which is true. Our knowledge of God isn't perfect. But when our Lord Jesus returns, our imperfect knowledge will pass away, and we will know fully. Then we will know fully, as Paul said, "Now I know in part; then I shall understand fully."

Then we won't need prophets to tell us what the LORD said, and that can only happen when the Lord returns.

Re. speaking in tongues, I think the Bible does allow men to hear and speak the word of God in different languages.

 

[Jim Parker]

Because he is speaking of perfection when he says, 'when the perfect comes, the imperfect will pass away.'

The Greek word translated "perfect" is Telos.
It is used to refer to the completion of all things. It refers to a goal to be achieved.
Language is not perfect. It is particularly imperfect when describing things which cannot be measured, weighed, and counted. The imperfection of language is clearly demonstrated in this forum where there is a wide spectrum of assumed meanings for what the scriptures say.
If the scriptures were "perfect" in every way then we would have no disagreements as to what they mean.
There would be no heresies, no denominations, no arguments about words.

The Kingdom of God with the renewed heavens and earth is the completion of all things; it is the goal toward which we strive; it is that which is perfect and which is yet to come.

The historical witness of the continuation of the gifts of the Spirit demonstrates that they have continued well after the close of the canon, the last writing of the last apostle, or the destruction of Jerusalem in 70AD. It is necessary to ignore historic fact to hold to those events as the coming of what is perfect.

iakov the fool

 

[gr8grace3]

OK
Name one person since Christ who is/was as perfect as Christ, who has/had all the fullness of Deity.
I'll wait.

None........You think/believe that we will have the fullness of deity when His kingdom comes(the perfect)?

Really?
Which one.
The Aramaic?
The Greek?
The Hebrew?

All that were originally penned in those languages.

I hope you are aware that every translation from the original language is IMperfect.

That is THE point Jim. Translations/transliterations are imperfect..............the original languages are NOT. And folks are dealing with the imperfect translation rather than dealing with the original INSPIRED word of τέλειον.

"The perfect" It is a translation from the original(inspired word.) Some folks want to try to force 'the perfect' to mean what ever fits their fancy with the TRANSLATION(imperfect) of the original inspired word(perfect).

The neuter gender alone for "the perfect"/τέλειον, tells us that Paul has a THING in mind.........the completed canon.

8Love never fails; but if there are gifts of prophecy, they will be done away; if there are tongues, they will cease; if there is knowledge, it will be done away
9For we know in part and we prophesy in part; (because they did not have all the pieces put together yet)
10but when the perfect comes, the partial will be done away.( the completed canon, the temporary gifts will cease,they only had parts)
11When I was a child, I used to speak(the gift of tongues) like a child, think(the gift of knowledge) like a child, reason(the gift of wisdom/prophecy) like a child; when I became(the perfect comes/finished canon to form all doctrines needed to fulfill Gods plan for our lives) a man, I did away( the temporary gifts ceased) with childish things.

 

[reba]

Talk about adding to the WORD...

 

[Jim Parker]

he neuter gender alone for "the perfect"/τέλειον, tells us that Paul has a THING in mind.........the completed canon.

So you have the gift of mind-reading.
Interesting. I guess that one didn't cease.

Paul doesn't talk about the close of the canon in that letter.
Neither is scripture a topic of discussion in that letter.
There is nothing to suggest that he was referring to the close of the NT canon.
There is nothing in the NT that suggests that Paul considered his writings to be scripture or that there would be such a thing as a NT canon.

The only reason that people came up with (fabricated, invented) the notion that Paul was talking about the close of the canon marking the end of the gifts is because they needed it to support their completely unbiblical opinion. It is a contrivance. It is not exegesis; it is isogesis.

 

[gr8grace3]

Talk about adding to the WORD...

Reba. You really should be setting a better example. We get ' closed for review' if we make statement's like this. Or warnings.

 

[gr8grace3]

There is nothing in the NT that suggests that Paul considered his writings to be scripture or that there would be such a thing as a NT canon.

2 Pet 3:16~~New American Standard Bible
as also in all his letters, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which the untaught and unstable distort, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures, to their own destruction.

 

[FreeGrace]

gr8grace3 said: ↑
"The perfect" is Gods finished word to us."

Really?
Which one.
The Aramaic?
The Greek?
The Hebrew?

How about the neuter gender. Which renders the idea of "the perfect" referring to Christ null and void.

I hope you are aware that every translation from the original language is IMperfect.

We all hope you are aware that "the perfect" is neuter gender. Not masculine gender.

 

[reba]

Reba. You really should be setting a better example. We get ' closed for review' if we make statement's like this. Or warnings.

OK I will re word
11When I was a child, I used to speak(the gift of tongues) like a child, think(the gift of knowledge) like a child, reason(the gift of wisdom/prophecy) like a child; when I became(the perfect comes/finished canon to form all doctrines needed to fulfill Gods plan for our lives) a man, I did away( the temporary gifts ceased) with childish things.

Is it really proper to put our words in a verse in such a fashion to force them to say as we understand them.

1Co 13:11 When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.

1Co 13:12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.
To my understanding the phrase face to face implies seeing Him face to face.. not my eyes reading His Word..

 

[gr8grace3]

OK I will re word
11When I was a child, I used to speak(the gift of tongues) like a child, think(the gift of knowledge) like a child, reason(the gift of wisdom/prophecy) like a child; when I became(the perfect comes/finished canon to form all doctrines needed to fulfill Gods plan for our lives) a man, I did away( the temporary gifts ceased) with childish things.

Is it really proper to put our words in a verse in such a fashion to force them to say as we understand them.

1Co 13:11 When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.

1Co 13:12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.
To my understanding the phrase face to face implies seeing Him face to face.. not my eyes reading His Word..

The parentheses denote my words and my explanation "(word)"

Paul covered "face to face" physically....
2 Cor 5:8~~New American Standard Bible
we are of good courage, I say, and prefer rather to be absent from the body and to be at home with the Lord.


1736 endēméō (from 1722 /en "in," intensifying 1218 /dḗmos, "people bonded together by a particular identity") – properly, be present (at home), as amongst one's own type of (kindred, related) people.

In 1 Cor 13:12 the context of these verses and seeing Him "face to face" is not about being absent from the body. It is about growing up while we are still here in this body. The completed canon is His mind and who He is. We see him 'face to face' in the scriptures. We know Him intimately and fully from His living word........and they didn't have all the pieces put together quite yet when Paul penned this verse.

 

[reba]

What date did they become perfect?

 

[MarkT]

The Greek word translated "perfect" is Telos.
It is used to refer to the completion of all things. It refers to a goal to be achieved.
Language is not perfect. It is particularly imperfect when describing things which cannot be measured, weighed, and counted. The imperfection of language is clearly demonstrated in this forum where there is a wide spectrum of assumed meanings for what the scriptures say.
If the scriptures were "perfect" in every way then we would have no disagreements as to what they mean.
There would be no heresies, no denominations, no arguments about words.

The Kingdom of God with the renewed heavens and earth is the completion of all things; it is the goal toward which we strive; it is that which is perfect and which is yet to come.

The historical witness of the continuation of the gifts of the Spirit demonstrates that they have continued well after the close of the canon, the last writing of the last apostle, or the destruction of Jerusalem in 70AD. It is necessary to ignore historic fact to hold to those events as the coming of what is perfect.

iakov the fool

Well, that's what Paul says - we know only in part. Our knowledge isn't perfect. 1 Cor. 13:12 "For our knowledge is imperfect." 1 Cor. 13:9
1 Corinthians 13:12
For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall understand fully, even as I have been fully understood.

So Paul is talking about our knowledge and our prophecy being imperfect. So, in a manner of speaking, when the Lord returns, our imperfect knowledge will pass away and we will understand in full. So he says, "then I shall understand fully."

Language isn't the problem. The problem is how they read the Scriptures - line upon line, out of context.

Isaiah 28:13
Therefore the word of the Lord will be to them precept upon precept, precept upon precept, line upon line, line upon line, here a little, there a little; that they may go, and fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken.

I agree, that which is perfect is yet to come.

 

[gr8grace3]

What date did they become perfect?

This is why we should always go back to the original language. Because 'perfect' in the English language can mean something different than the Greek word τέλειον/( the perfect.)

It is by extension that we come up with "perfect" in our language. In the original Greek it means complete, complete in all it's parts.

In around 96 AD the Canon was complete/ τέλειον in all it's parts( when John finished the revelation).

Rev 22 :18~~New American Standard Bible
I testify to everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: if anyone adds to them, God will add to him the plagues which are written in this book;

 

[reba]

So what ever was written about 96 AD is what is perfect/complete?

 

[MarkT]

Re. tongues, Apparently when the twelve were gathered at the day of Pentecost, they spoke in tongues, and there were Jews from every nation who heard them, and each one heard in his own native language. So it was the Holy Spirit speaking through the apostles. And each man heard in his native language, which supports the proposition that the Bible is inspired by the Spirit so we can read it in our own language.

Don't have to be Jewish or know Greek to read the Bible.

 

[gr8grace3]

So what ever was written about 96 AD is what is perfect?

Around 96 AD John finished the revelation. All other scripture were finished by this time. John completed The Lords written message to us around 96 AD........so all were in written form.......and perfect/complete.

 

[reba]

Around 96 AD John finished the revelation. All other scripture were finished by this time. John completed The Lords written message to us around 96 AD........so all were in written form.......and perfect/complete.

OK going to ask another but dont know how to frame it well

Bare with me please..
Do you accept best example i can think of is say the KJ version of Scripture as complete?

ADDED: i see you use the New American Standard Bible do you believe it is complete ?

 

[gr8grace3]

OK going to ask another but dont know how to frame it well

Bare with me please..
Do you accept best example i can think of is say the KJ version of Scripture as complete?

I prefer the NASB. But no, I don't believe any translation is perfect. The original, inspired word is perfect.

 

[MarkT]

gr8grace3 said: ↑
"The perfect" is Gods finished word to us."

How about the neuter gender. Which renders the idea of "the perfect" referring to Christ null and void.


We all hope you are aware that "the perfect" is neuter gender. Not masculine gender.

Knowledge doesn't have a gender. Neither does prophecy. But that is what Paul is talking about.