I said:
"Incorrect. See post #410."
"Incorrect. See post #410."
As I invited ggg, please address post #410 and explain how my points are incorrect.
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The lake of fire - Punishment ie torture or destruction
- Thread starter PeterJens
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- hell judgement lake of fire sin
Jim Parker
Member
Yeah. There's a lot of that out there.
The very early church did not agree with that speculation.
https://gospellightminute.wordpress...d-about-hell-bad-news-good-news-about-hell-1/
chessman
Member
I did already. It’s incorrect because it’s not comprehensive of John’s Revelation of Christ and the Hebrew and Greek names for Satan, the Devil, the king of the Abyss and the Lake of Fire.
I have. Please review all of the Revelation, not just Chapter 20 and the Hebrew and Greek names for the king of the Abyss, better known by his name in Greek and Hebrew (destroyer/destruction, where he’s king).
They refer to the same place within John’s Revelation as well as in other Scriptures. It’s a place of imprisonment for a while, then destruction, destruction by fire. Satan is it’s king.
Because he’s the king of the Abyss, king of destruction, king of The Lake of Fire. Same thing.
Satan/Devil rules the other demons, to include The First Beast from the Land and Second Beast from the Sea (which is The False Prophet). The Beast from the Sea comes up from the Abyss and it goes back there forever.
Correct, where he’s still king.
And Jesus asked him, “What is the name for you?” And the one said, “Legion ”, because many demons entered into him. And they were begging Him that He not command them to go into the abyss. Now there was a herd of many pigs there feeding on the mountain. And they begged Him that He permit them to enter into those pigs. And He permitted them. And the demons, having come out from the man, entered into the pigs. And the herd rushed down the steep-bank into the lake, and was drowned.
Luke 8:30-33 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Luke 8:30-33&version=DLNTThe Abyss is where John and the other disciples had been taught demons were cast into by Jesus
John visioned a fallen star/angel who was given the key to the Abyss, which is like a great furnace:
And the fifth angel blew the trumpet, and I saw a star that had fallen from heaven to the earth, and the key of the shaft of the abyss was given to him. And he opened the shaft of the abyss, and smoke went up from the shaft like smoke from a great furnace, and the sun and the air were darkened by the smoke from the shaft.
Revelation 9:1-2 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Revelation 9:1-2&version=LEBDo I need to go on??? Or do you get the point already??? The Abyss is like “a great furnace”. Hmm, a Lake of Fire - a great furnance...???
Remember it’s king and the king’s name.
They have as king over them the angel of the abyss, whose name in Hebrew is Abaddon (destruction), and in Greek he has the name Apollyon (destroyer).
Revelation 9:11 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Revelation 9:11&version=LEBSatan/Devil is the king of the Abyss. And he gives authority to his demons (The Beast and The False Prophet):
And when they have completed their testimony, the beast that comes up from the abyss will make war with them and will conquer them and will kill them. And their dead bodies will lie in the street of the great city which is called symbolically Sodom and Egypt, where also their Lord was crucified.
Revelation 11:7-8 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Revelation 11:7-8&version=LEBSymbolically, Jerusalem is called Sodom (previously destroyed because of it’s inhabitants’ sexual immorality, But that’s another story). But hold on to your hat, here’s the kicker:
Remember these demons have a king who’s name means destruction:
The beast that you saw was, and is not, and is going to come up from the abyss, and he is going to destruction.
Revelation 17:8 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Revelation 17:8&version=LEBUmm, were does the Beast go to again???
Oh, yah The Lake of Fire.
You've not done a thing to support your claim. So it remains just a claim.
Further, you've not shown where the Bible equates sheol (hell) with the lake of fire.
There's nothing further to discuss, as your claims are not being supported by clear explanation and Scripture. I have showed where both death and hades will be thrown into the lake of fire. And you've not explained why or how one can throw a place into itself, which seems to be your view, which is really quite odd.
chessman
Member
You didn’t answer my question; Where does The Beast go to in John’s Revelation?
The same place as the dragon, false prophet and all the people who aren't in the book of life: the lake of fire.
Completely agreed.
chessman
Member
Which is also called “destruction”, right?
So who’s The Dragon in John’s vision?
godsquadgeek
Member
what three compartments do you think compose hell? Then. As you said you agree there are three, but none are the lake of fire. Myself and theologian clarence larkin agree that Hell was the three places listed above, and the lake of fire was the last of the three. Do you know of any orthodox theologians that cater to your viewpoint?
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godsquadgeek
Member
You quote well known verses on hell, nothing new here. Every verse you quoted in your posts are listed in larkins picture, and actually many more.
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The false prophet in rev sets up a image and acts in behalf of the beast.(angel of the abyss) The man of lawlessness. 2thess 2:8 There are human armies lead by the man of lawlessness or stern faced king. . Zech 14 (flee from the surrounding armies) Daniel 12 So you premise doesn't hold. The false prophet is a man (human)
Politico
Member
A Refutation of Annihilationism
1) Your statement, "Mortal man lives a short time, yet people feel justified to condemn humans to eternal suffering because of the failure to grasp life while on earth," falsely presumes that God does not provide a person enough time to reach a level of complete accountability to the Truth. Upon what do you base this? Also, contained in your statement is the false assertion that eternal punishment is the consequence of a person failing to "grasp life." Most definitely Scripture makes it clear that a person, in this life, is given sufficient evidence and knowledge--as well as a measure faith--to make an informed decision for Christ. In other words, any failure on the part of a person is not the result of failing to "grasp life," rather, that person fails to receive and act upon that which enables them to "grasp life," to do something they have been enabled to do; namely, to submit to the work and righteousness of their Maker. For if they act upon what evidence/revelation that is given to them (our "moral compass," God's natural creation, and His Word--in whatever measure available), then they will be saved.
2) Eternal Hell-fire is not "the end the ultimate resolution for sinners who refuse to be healed?" (I am not positive what you mean by this.) It's the consequence of rejecting God Almighty in this life. What is being resolved if it is a resolution? A resolution of what? The problem of sin is not resolved in Hell. In Hell, sin is still imputed to the condemned.
3) I believe the evidence weighs heavily in favor of everlasting punishment in a literal Hell. If there is no such thing, then there is no consequence for rejecting God in this life. If there is not such a Hell, then what is the alternative to Universal Salvation or limited/finite punishment in Hell? That would be Annihilationism. But if Annihilationism is proposed, then where does sin go after mortal death? It cannot not be imputed to Christ on the cross. It is not relegated to some state or place of limbo. So what happens to it? If we say it is destroyed along with the person, then is that not a claim for a second means of eradicating sin along side of the Cross? Shall we dare say that through the lack of faith (rebellion of man) sin can be destroyed, just as sin is destroyed through faith in the work of a cross? Would that not be equating a lack of faith with faith? Shall we dare equate transgression with the power of the cross? I think not. If it is otherwise, then all a godless person has to do is kill themselves and their sin is then eradicated, meaning they have the power not only to escape the wrath of God, and but also to thumb their nose at God. Do proponents of Annihilationism actually believe that man has such power over God Almighty and sin?
So what if God annihilates a person/soul; the annihilated person will not exist, so he/she would not care. In Annihilationism, there is no punishment, for punishment can only be inflicted where the object of such affliction actually exists. Is a comatose prisoner in a prison aware of their punishment? No? Then what would be the point in keeping them in prison, which is a form of punishment? Would a society waste money continuing to incarcerate an inmate pertaining to whom it is known that the inmate's comatose state is absolutely permanent? So annihilation is certainly not a form of punishment, for how can a person be punished if they are not even aware of such punishment?
I conclude, therefore, that Annihilationism is not an option. So let's resign that to the abyss of ignorance where it truly belongs. As far as I know, that only leaves Universal Salvation or finite/limited punishment in Hell. However, the arguments for Universal Salvation and finite/limited punishment in Hell are full of Scriptural and logical problems. And they are certainly refutable, which, by the grace, knowledge, and power of God Almighty and His Word, I believe I can certainly do.
4) I have heard it said that God does not send people to Hell; they send themselves to Hell. There is truth to this claim with respect to its point. An apt parallel would be a person who ends up in prison as a result of wicked behavior. If we say that it is the State that has sent the person to prison, and make no mention of the responsibility the person has concerning the cause of the person being sent to prison, are we not presenting a half truth? The State does not want to send people to prison (neither does God want to send people to Hell), but it has no choice because justice requires an answer to man's wickedness and unrepentance. What would we think if our government decided it would never again send anyone to prison no matter what crimes people commit? Would we not label such a government as unjust? And is not justice one of the very attributes of God? So we can begin to see that the necessity of an eternal hell lies in part in the very nature/character of God Himself.
1) Your statement, "Mortal man lives a short time, yet people feel justified to condemn humans to eternal suffering because of the failure to grasp life while on earth," falsely presumes that God does not provide a person enough time to reach a level of complete accountability to the Truth. Upon what do you base this? Also, contained in your statement is the false assertion that eternal punishment is the consequence of a person failing to "grasp life." Most definitely Scripture makes it clear that a person, in this life, is given sufficient evidence and knowledge--as well as a measure faith--to make an informed decision for Christ. In other words, any failure on the part of a person is not the result of failing to "grasp life," rather, that person fails to receive and act upon that which enables them to "grasp life," to do something they have been enabled to do; namely, to submit to the work and righteousness of their Maker. For if they act upon what evidence/revelation that is given to them (our "moral compass," God's natural creation, and His Word--in whatever measure available), then they will be saved.
2) Eternal Hell-fire is not "the end the ultimate resolution for sinners who refuse to be healed?" (I am not positive what you mean by this.) It's the consequence of rejecting God Almighty in this life. What is being resolved if it is a resolution? A resolution of what? The problem of sin is not resolved in Hell. In Hell, sin is still imputed to the condemned.
3) I believe the evidence weighs heavily in favor of everlasting punishment in a literal Hell. If there is no such thing, then there is no consequence for rejecting God in this life. If there is not such a Hell, then what is the alternative to Universal Salvation or limited/finite punishment in Hell? That would be Annihilationism. But if Annihilationism is proposed, then where does sin go after mortal death? It cannot not be imputed to Christ on the cross. It is not relegated to some state or place of limbo. So what happens to it? If we say it is destroyed along with the person, then is that not a claim for a second means of eradicating sin along side of the Cross? Shall we dare say that through the lack of faith (rebellion of man) sin can be destroyed, just as sin is destroyed through faith in the work of a cross? Would that not be equating a lack of faith with faith? Shall we dare equate transgression with the power of the cross? I think not. If it is otherwise, then all a godless person has to do is kill themselves and their sin is then eradicated, meaning they have the power not only to escape the wrath of God, and but also to thumb their nose at God. Do proponents of Annihilationism actually believe that man has such power over God Almighty and sin?
So what if God annihilates a person/soul; the annihilated person will not exist, so he/she would not care. In Annihilationism, there is no punishment, for punishment can only be inflicted where the object of such affliction actually exists. Is a comatose prisoner in a prison aware of their punishment? No? Then what would be the point in keeping them in prison, which is a form of punishment? Would a society waste money continuing to incarcerate an inmate pertaining to whom it is known that the inmate's comatose state is absolutely permanent? So annihilation is certainly not a form of punishment, for how can a person be punished if they are not even aware of such punishment?
I conclude, therefore, that Annihilationism is not an option. So let's resign that to the abyss of ignorance where it truly belongs. As far as I know, that only leaves Universal Salvation or finite/limited punishment in Hell. However, the arguments for Universal Salvation and finite/limited punishment in Hell are full of Scriptural and logical problems. And they are certainly refutable, which, by the grace, knowledge, and power of God Almighty and His Word, I believe I can certainly do.
4) I have heard it said that God does not send people to Hell; they send themselves to Hell. There is truth to this claim with respect to its point. An apt parallel would be a person who ends up in prison as a result of wicked behavior. If we say that it is the State that has sent the person to prison, and make no mention of the responsibility the person has concerning the cause of the person being sent to prison, are we not presenting a half truth? The State does not want to send people to prison (neither does God want to send people to Hell), but it has no choice because justice requires an answer to man's wickedness and unrepentance. What would we think if our government decided it would never again send anyone to prison no matter what crimes people commit? Would we not label such a government as unjust? And is not justice one of the very attributes of God? So we can begin to see that the necessity of an eternal hell lies in part in the very nature/character of God Himself.
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Satan
1. Paradise, also referred to as Abraham's bosom
2. torments
3. tartarus, a prison for some fallen angels
From my almost 7 decades of life, I've never heard of anyone claiming hell is the lake of fire.
I explained the purpose of the 3 compartments.
Where is the proof that the lake of fire is "the last of the 3"?
chessman
Member
And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
2 Thessalonians 2:8 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=2 Thessalonians 2:8&version=KJVAny idea why Wicked is capitalized above and what spirit of Wicked’s mouth Paul means?
There’s nothing stated within 2 Thess 2 (or any of the other passages you referenced) that conflicts with The Beast and The False Prophet from John’s visions being demons of Satan, with seven heads and unclean spirits coming out their mouths.
It’s explicitly stated (twice) in Rev they are demons of Satan doing signs and deceiving men. And yes at the end they deceive a man of lawlessness, which is what 2 Thess 2 says also.
And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false-prophet. For they are spirits of demons doing signs, which go out to the kings of the whole world to gather them together for the battle of the great day of God Almighty.
Revelation 16:13-14 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Revelation 16:13-14&version=DLNT
chessman
Member
And Satan is the king of the Abyss:
They have a king over them: the angel of the abyss. The name for him in Hebrew is Abaddon. And in Greek he has the name Apollyon.
Revelation 9:11 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Revelation 9:11&version=DLNTAnd the Abyss is Satan’s prison from where he comes up for a short time, then returns to his prison forever:
And he seized the dragon— the ancient serpent, who is the devil and Satan — and bound him for a thousand years. And he threw him into the abyss, and shut and sealed it over him in order that he might not deceive the nations anymore until the thousand years are finished. After these things he must be released for a short time.
Revelation 20:2-3 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Revelation 20:2-3&version=DLNTSatan is released “for a short time” from his prison (the Abyss) then returns there forever in torment.
And when the thousand years are finished, Satan will be released from his prison.
Revelation 20:7 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Revelation 20:7&version=DLNTAnd the devil, the one deceiving them, was thrown into the lake of fire and sulphur— where both the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented by day and by night forever and ever.
Revelation 20:10 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Revelation 20:10&version=DLNTSatan (and his demons) come from the Abyss for a little while and return to The Lake of Fire forever (simply two different names for the same place) because it’s their prison of which Satan is king. (Who’s name is destroyer/destruction).
Already demonstrated the punishment is the same for all human and angels and that they will have no rest night and day and they will be tormented in the lake of fire. That is traditional and I agree. Modern rewrites haven't swayed what I see in scripture. Did they seek to destroy Jesus or kill Him? Two different meanings in english. A soul in the lake of fire is one who perishes never to be seen on this earth again unlike a bodily resurrection of the saints. The false prophet is a man who acts on this earth in behalf of the angel of the abyss.
chessman
Member
Nope. Just posted the Scripture that shows The False Prophet to be a demon from the Abyss who acts on this Earth for a short time in behalf of The Dragon (Satan who is the king of the Abyss and destroyer) performing signs to deceive men through seven kings (men, the seven heads of The Beast and The False Prophet).
godsquadgeek
Member
Like I said can you quote orthodox theologians who agree with you?
The Bible never says or equates Tartarus with the lof.
I see nothing about returning to prison here. Or anywhere else.
This has not been proven or even supported from Scripture. They are 2 separate places. Tartarus is a holding cell (prison) until the final judgment and eternity in the lof.