The lake of fire - Punishment ie torture or destruction

[FreeGrace]

I said:
"1. Paradise, also referred to as Abraham's bosom
2. torments
3. tartarus, a prison for some fallen angels"

Like I said can you quote orthodox theologians who agree with you?

I'm sorry that plain Scripture doesn't seem to satisfy some, and they require human verification. But I'm quite satisfied with what the Bible says, and says plainly.

But since my list, straight out of Scripture, doesn't seem to persuade, please address each of the 3 listed and show me from Scripture that they are NOT places where departed souls exist. If you can, that would help me orient to truth.

 

[gr8grace3]

1. Paradise, also referred to as Abraham's bosom
2. torments
3. tartarus, a prison for some fallen angels


From my almost 7 decades of life, I've never heard of anyone claiming hell is the lake of fire.

I explained the purpose of the 3 compartments.

Where is the proof that the lake of fire is "the last of the 3"?

Agreed and Possibly even 4 compartments. There seems to be a distinction for the abyss also. "The worst of the worst" of fallen angels are in the abyss.....like Abaddon.

Rev 9:11~~New American Standard Bible
They have as king over them, the angel of the abyss; his name in Hebrew is Abaddon, and in the Greek he has the name Apollyon.

 

[chessman]

After these things he must be released for a short time.

I see nothing about returning to prison here.

So a prisoner is released from prison “for a short time”, and you see no reason for him to return??? I thought you yield to Scripture.

 

[Butch5]

A Refutation of Annihilationism

1) Your statement, "Mortal man lives a short time, yet people feel justified to condemn humans to eternal suffering because of the failure to grasp life while on earth," falsely presumes that God does not provide a person enough time to reach a level of complete accountability to the Truth. Upon what do you base this? Also, contained in your statement is the false assertion that eternal punishment is the consequence of a person failing to "grasp life." Most definitely Scripture makes it clear that a person, in this life, is given sufficient evidence and knowledge--as well as a measure faith--to make an informed decision for Christ. In other words, any failure on the part of a person is not the result of failing to "grasp life," rather, that person fails to receive and act upon that which enables them to "grasp life," to do something they have been enabled to do; namely, to submit to the work and righteousness of their Maker. For if they act upon what evidence/revelation that is given to them (our "moral compass," God's natural creation, and His Word--in whatever measure available), then they will be saved.

2) Eternal Hell-fire is not "the end the ultimate resolution for sinners who refuse to be healed?" (I am not positive what you mean by this.) It's the consequence of rejecting God Almighty in this life. What is being resolved if it is a resolution? A resolution of what? The problem of sin is not resolved in Hell. In Hell, sin is still imputed to the condemned.

3) I believe the evidence weighs heavily in favor of everlasting punishment in a literal Hell. If there is no such thing, then there is no consequence for rejecting God in this life. If there is not such a Hell, then what is the alternative to Universal Salvation or limited/finite punishment in Hell? That would be Annihilationism. But if Annihilationism is proposed, then where does sin go after mortal death? It cannot not be imputed to Christ on the cross. It is not relegated to some state or place of limbo. So what happens to it? If we say it is destroyed along with the person, then is that not a claim for a second means of eradicating sin along side of the Cross? Shall we dare say that through the lack of faith (rebellion of man) sin can be destroyed, just as sin is destroyed through faith in the work of a cross? Would that not be equating a lack of faith with faith? Shall we dare equate transgression with the power of the cross? I think not. If it is otherwise, then all a godless person has to do is kill themselves and their sin is then eradicated, meaning they have the power not only to escape the wrath of God, and but also to thumb their nose at God. Do proponents of Annihilationism actually believe that man has such power over God Almighty and sin?

So what if God annihilates a person/soul; the annihilated person will not exist, so he/she would not care. In Annihilationism, there is no punishment, for punishment can only be inflicted where the object of such affliction actually exists. Is a comatose prisoner in a prison aware of their punishment? No? Then what would be the point in keeping them in prison, which is a form of punishment? Would a society waste money continuing to incarcerate an inmate pertaining to whom it is known that the inmate's comatose state is absolutely permanent? So annihilation is certainly not a form of punishment, for how can a person be punished if they are not even aware of such punishment?

I conclude, therefore, that Annihilationism is not an option. So let's resign that to the abyss of ignorance where it truly belongs. As far as I know, that only leaves Universal Salvation or finite/limited punishment in Hell. However, the arguments for Universal Salvation and finite/limited punishment in Hell are full of Scriptural and logical problems. And they are certainly refutable, which, by the grace, knowledge, and power of God Almighty and His Word, I believe I can certainly do.

4) I have heard it said that God does not send people to Hell; they send themselves to Hell. There is truth to this claim with respect to its point. An apt parallel would be a person who ends up in prison as a result of wicked behavior. If we say that it is the State that has sent the person to prison, and make no mention of the responsibility the person has concerning the cause of the person being sent to prison, are we not presenting a half truth? The State does not want to send people to prison (neither does God want to send people to Hell), but it has no choice because justice requires an answer to man's wickedness and unrepentance. What would we think if our government decided it would never again send anyone to prison no matter what crimes people commit? Would we not label such a government as unjust? And is not justice one of the very attributes of God? So we can begin to see that the necessity of an eternal hell lies in part in the very nature/character of God Himself.

This is illogical. Sin is not a thing that is should go anywhere. It is an action which when stopped ceases to exist. The punishment in Annihilationism is death. The Bible doesn't teach an eternal conscious torment. That idea comes about with a belief in several Greek philosophical ideas. The Lake of Fire is called the second death, not eternal life. The gift of God is eternal life. Where in the Scriptures do we find the gift of God being given to the wicked?

 

[Free]

The punishment in Annihilationism is death.

Ceasing to exist isn't punishment.

The Bible doesn't teach an eternal conscious torment.

Do you agree that it does teach differing degrees of punishment at some point after Christ's return? Are there varying degrees of annihilation?

That idea comes about with a belief in several Greek philosophical ideas.

Whether or not the idea comes from Greek philosophy is completely irrelevant as to the truth of the matter.

The Lake of Fire is called the second death, not eternal life. The gift of God is eternal life. Where in the Scriptures do we find the gift of God being given to the wicked?

Rev 20:10 and the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur where the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever. (ESV)

Does this not say that the devil, the beast, and the false prophet will be "tormented day and night forever and ever"? Is this speaking of annihilation?

 

[godsquadgeek]

I said:
"1. Paradise, also referred to as Abraham's bosom
2. torments
3. tartarus, a prison for some fallen angels"

I'm sorry that plain Scripture doesn't seem to satisfy some, and they require human verification. But I'm quite satisfied with what the Bible says, and says plainly.

But since my list, straight out of Scripture, doesn't seem to persuade, please address each of the 3 listed and show me from Scripture that they are NOT places where departed souls exist. If you can, that would help me orient to truth.

jehovah's witnesses say they are interpreting hell right too. Sorry if I ask for further validation from qualified sources, which you obviously have none.

 

[godsquadgeek]

Agreed and Possibly even 4 compartments. There seems to be a distinction for the abyss also. "The worst of the worst" of fallen angels are in the abyss.....like Abaddon.

Rev 9:11~~New American Standard Bible
They have as king over them, the angel of the abyss; his name in Hebrew is Abaddon, and in the Greek he has the name Apollyon.

here is an actual theologian who believes that Hell composes of tarturus, the lake of fire, and the abyss, further connection could be added to paradise and torments.

so technically there is five compartments of hell. Freegrace does not believe the lake of fire is not part of hell and believes in annihilation: which is obviously wrong.

 

[godsquadgeek]

Agreed and Possibly even 4 compartments. There seems to be a distinction for the abyss also. "The worst of the worst" of fallen angels are in the abyss.....like Abaddon.

Rev 9:11~~New American Standard Bible
They have as king over them, the angel of the abyss; his name in Hebrew is Abaddon, and in the Greek he has the name Apollyon.

"duplicate

 

[Free]

Satan in revelation is thrown in the lake of fire for a thousand years and let loose.

Where does Scripture say this?

 

[godsquadgeek]

I said:
"1. Paradise, also referred to as Abraham's bosom
2. torments
3. tartarus, a prison for some fallen angels"

I'm sorry that plain Scripture doesn't seem to satisfy some, and they require human verification. But I'm quite satisfied with what the Bible says, and says plainly.

But since my list, straight out of Scripture, doesn't seem to persuade, please address each of the 3 listed and show me from Scripture that they are NOT places where departed souls exist. If you can, that would help me orient to truth.

“Everlasting” destruction would not be annihilation, which only takes an instant and is over. If someone undergoes everlasting destruction, then they have to have everlasting existence. The cars in a junkyard have been destroyed, but they are not annihilated. They are simply beyond repair or unredeemable. So are the people in hell."

Norman Geisler: Encyclopedia of Apologetics, 1999 Baker books

 

[godsquadgeek]

Where does Scripture say this?

the abyss is part of Hell, if you forgot, There are five parts of hell, see my last few posts. It's in revelation 20. I know I said lake of fire, but that doesn't happen till after judgment. Sorry about that.

 

[Free]

And Satan is not a human being, but rather a fallen angel that cannot die.

Where does Scripture tell us that angels cannot die? I thought only God could not die and those to whom he chooses to give eternal life. That is one of the major premises of your annihilationist views, is it not?

 

[Free]

the abyss is part of Hell, if you forgot, There are five parts of hell, see my last few posts. It's in revelation 20. I know I said lake of fire, but that doesn't happen till after judgment. Sorry about that.

Where, specifically, in Revelation 20 is the pit stated to be a part of hell, which is the lake of fire?

 

[godsquadgeek]

Where does Scripture tell us that angels cannot die? I thought only God could not die and those to whom he chooses to give eternal life. That is one of the major premises of your annihilationist views, is it not?

Angels are immaterial. Death is in relation to something that is bound by time in a way that means it is alive at one moment and dead in another moment. Nowhere in the bible is it said that all angels are bodily creatures. They can possess a body or appear to be physical, but not in their true essense. Since they do not have a body, they cannot die. or be hurt in the same way we are hurt and die. (but I am not an annihilationist) I believe in conscious eternal torment, forever and ever. Hell is superantural and is something that not only kills the body, but also kills the soul. Or torments it. Never is the soul not in existence because the soul is immaterial too, beyond time, and space.

 

[Free]

Angels are immaterial. Death is in relation to something that is bound by time in a way that means it is alive at one moment and dead in another moment. Nowhere in the bible is it said that all angels are bodily creatures. They can possess a body or appear to be physical, but not in their true essense. Since they do not have a body, they cannot die. or be hurt in the same way we are hurt and die.

Where does Scripture state that everything immaterial cannot die?

 

[godsquadgeek]

Where does Scripture state that everything immaterial cannot die?

they cannot die because they are outside of time space continum and will be in existence forever. If someone is beyond time, then there is no time in which they are not existing. Angels cannot die, because they are immaterial and further more they dont' have a body. So there is nothing to die off. same with the soul. But we will be given new immortal bodies when we are in heaven.

 

[Free]

they cannot die because they are outside of time space continum and will be in existence forever. If someone is beyond time, then there is no time in which they are not existing.

So far you have a lot of opinion and no Scripture, despite a few requests now to provide some. If someone exists outside of time, they are not bound by time and there was never a time when they did not exist, but that is God alone. Angels are created beings, and therefore exist in space and time.

 

[Politico]

This is illogical. Sin is not a thing that is should go anywhere. It is an action which when stopped ceases to exist. The punishment in Annihilationism is death. The Bible doesn't teach an eternal conscious torment. That idea comes about with a belief in several Greek philosophical ideas. The Lake of Fire is called the second death, not eternal life. The gift of God is eternal life. Where in the Scriptures do we find the gift of God being given to the wicked?

This is illogical. Sin is not a thing that is should go anywhere.

Thanks for supporting my contention that the power of sin cannot be destroyed outside of the work of the Cross, this includes by means of annihilation (rendering non-existent). To render a person non-existent is to remove the power that sin has over that same person. Sin cannot have power over that which is non-existent.

The punishment in Annihilationism is death.

Death is no more non-existence than non-existence is death. Annihilation is not punishment; it would be a release from all punishment and the power of sin.

That which is non-existent cannot possibly be punished, as I mentioned in my earlier post. Literally, no one has any cause to fear non-existence. What is there to fear in nothingness? There is no fear or discomfort in nothingness. Do you want to attempt to argue that discomfort of any sort is possible for those who no longer exist? There is literally no reason to fear God in this life if all one has to do is kill oneself and consequently be rendered non-existence.

What punishment does the Rich Man (parable) receive for sins? In His life on earth, he lived in comfort. There is no justice if such a man is simply rendered non-existent. If Annihilationism is true, then the Rich Man literally had nothing to fear. But yet this parable clearly indicates the presence of torment.

Job apparently even prefered annihilation to suffering (Job, chapter 3). So he understood that there is no punishment or suffering in non-existence.

Annihilationism is an enabler for suicide. Suicide is a sin, and anyone murdering themselves will die in rebellion, and as a consequence, will be in an everlasting Hell.

Psalm 73 seem to indicate that not all justice for transgressors are accomplished in this life.

The Bible doesn't teach an eternal conscious torment.

Most certainly it does. Support is found in many passages. What do you believe the devil's feared in Matthew 8:29?

"Hell Will Last as Long as Heaven Does. Heaven is described as “everlasting” in the Bible. But the same Greek word (aionion), used in the same context, also affirmed that hell is “everlasting”(Matt. 25:41; cf. v. 46; 2 Thess. 1:9; Rev. 20:10). So, if heaven is forever, so is hell." (The Big Book of Christian Apologetics)

"The fact that these persons [in Hell] are suffering no more justifies annihilating them than it does for a parent to kill a child who is suffering."

The gift of God is eternal life. Where in the Scriptures do we find the gift of God being given to the wicked?

The phrase you have used (eternal life) is a reference to a particular quality of life found only in Christ. Of course Scripture is not going to use the same phrasing for the wicked pertaining to their quality of life in an everlasting Hell.

Mat 25:41 "Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: " The Greek word for "everlasting" in this verse is the same greek word used in Mark 10:30 and John 3:15.

 

[godsquadgeek]

Where does Scripture tell us that angels cannot die? I thought only God could not die and those to whom he chooses to give eternal life. That is one of the major premises of your annihilationist views, is it not?

and further more if you remember, God did die. and not only his body died but his actual being. In his son Jesus. Jesus died, but came back to life. So He would be an exception to the rule about immaterial beings cannot die. But I don't know for sure if God can simply remove them from existence in the same way he put them into existence. That is possible. But it would be timeless, so they would have never existed and always existed in the same essence, which is contradictory to our sciences.

 

[godsquadgeek]

Thanks for supporting my contention that the power of sin cannot be destroyed outside of the work of the cross, this includes by means of annihilation (rendering non-existent). To render a person non-existent is to remove the power that sin has over that same person.


Death is no more non-existence than non-existence is death. Annihilation is not punishment; it would be a release from all punishment and the power of sin.

That which is non-existent cannot possibly be punished,
as I mentioned in my earlier post. Literally, no one has any cause to fear non-existence. What is there to fear in nothingness? There is no fear or discomfort in nothingness. Do you want to attempt to argue that discomfort of any sort is possible for those who know longer exist? There is literally no reason to fear God in this life if all one has to do is kill themselves and consequently be reneder non-existence.

What punishment does the Rich Man receive fro sins. In His life on earth, he lived in comfort. There is no justice if such a man is simply rendered non-existent. If Annihilationism is true, then the Rich Man literally had nothing to fear. But yet this parable clearly indicates the presence of torment.

Job apparently even prefered annihilation to suffering (Job, chapter 3). Annihilationism is an enabler for suicide. Suicide is a sin, and anyone murdering themselves will die in rebellion, and as a consequence, will be in an everlasting Hell.

Psalm 73 seem to indicate that not all justice for transgressors are accomplished in this life.


Most certainly it does. Support is found in many passages. What do you believe the devil's feared? in Matthew 8:29.

"Hell Will Last as Long as Heaven Does. Heaven is described as “everlasting” in the Bible. But the same Greek word (aionion), used in the same context, also affirmed that hell is “everlasting”(Matt. 25:41; cf. v. 46; 2 Thess. 1:9; Rev. 20:10). So, if heaven is forever, so is hell." (The Big Book of Christian Apologetics)

"The fact that these persons [in Hell] are suffering no more justifies annihilating them than it does for a parent to kill a child who is suffering."



The phrase you have used is a reference to particular quality of life found only in Christ. Of course Scripture is not going to use the same phrasing for the wicked pertaining to quality of life.

Mat 25:41 "Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: " The Greek word for "everlasting" in this verse is the same greek word used in Mark 10:30 and John 3:15.

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http://christianforums.net/Fellowsh...ure-or-destruction.71606/page-23#post-1395579