Justification and Sanctification

[FreeGrace]

No flip flopping here.

Eternal life is for those who by patient continuance in doing good, seek for honor and immortality.

But I gave 10 verses that say plainly that eternal life is on the basis of faith, not works, lifestyle, etc.

Nothing you have said will change this truth.

Everything I've posted is the truth, and I've quoted or cited verses that plainly say what I post.

 

[Rajesh Sahu]

My friend, "heresy" "blasphemy". I do not know how your mind thinks, but I am simply saying
we become children of God and walk in His ways. You seem to want to deny this, which is fine
by me, and thats where it ends.

John says it like this

And this is love: that we walk in obedience to his commands. As you have heard from the beginning, his command is that you walk in love.
2 John 1:6

Now the phrase to walk in love, is what Jesus says, Moses says, Paul says, John says etc.
I see many cannot face this, which is I suspect the real issue.
One ex-missionary called this a sugar coated gospel, as if love is a secondary issue, a distraction to belief,
and a way of corrupting people. But ofcourse love causes us to become real, and to change which is the
point of knowing God, which makes me wonder how many wear the trappings of faith, yet do not have its
essence.

Blasphemy or Heresy? You are simply stating the TRUE doctrine which asks for both , a Repentant faith and to Obey. Because it's easier to do the former and challenging to-do the latter , it has ended up as false doctrine. That you're saved by faith alone . Nothing else is needed. I believe Peter Jens you got it smack on right . And if we are all trying to do is teach what Christ taught . How can that be heresy when you're teaching/ sharing what Jesus taught! Share this liberally and fearlessly. The church teachings desperately needs a correction in my opinion

 

[JLB]

But I gave 10 verses that say plainly that eternal life is on the basis of faith, not works, lifestyle, etc.

That refers to being born again.

No one is born again because of their good deeds.

 

[FreeGrace]

I DO believe the words of Jesus.

He said that those He gives eternal life shall never perish, but your posts indicate that some recipients of eternal life CAN perish.

In direct contradiction of what Jesus said.

He said that IF I ABIDE in Him, I will have eternal life.

No He didn't. Please follow forum rules and quote or cite verses that support your claims.

However, consider these 10 verses:
John 3:15-16 15 so that whoever believes will in Him have eternal life. 16 "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.

John 3:36 "He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him."

John 5:24 "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

John 6:40 "For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day."

John 6:47 "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes has eternal life.

Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord

1 Tim 1:16 Yet for this reason I found mercy, so that in me as the foremost, Jesus Christ might demonstrate His perfect patience as an example for those who would believe in Him for eternal life.

Gal 3:22 But the Scripture has shut up everyone under sin, so that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe.

1 John 5:13 - These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, so that you may know that you have eternal life.

Abide means to live with.

It means more than just that. Married couples can live with each other but not abide with each other. The issue of abiding in the Bible is about abiding in fellowship or peace. So it's not just being in the same room or house. Hardly.

If I live with Christ all my life, THEN I will inherit eternal life. I like to use only Jesus' words.

The Bible doesn't speak of "living with Christ". That is your word, not the Bible's.

The Bible speaks of being IN Christ, which means to be in union with Christ. Something the Holy Spirit does for each believer, per Eph 1:13. The Bible also speaks of abiding in, remaining in, and continuing in Him. These are about fellowship.

We should agree with our Savior too.

I heartily agree. Jesus said those who believe HAVE eternal life. John 5:24, 6:47, 11:25-27.
Jesus said that recipients of eternal life shall never perish. John 10:28.

After all, it is HE who is saving us.
IF WE ABIDE IN HIM.

This is twisting Scripture. What He said was that He saves those who believe in Him.

Again, please abide by forum rules and provide any verse that supports your claim.

There is a tendency not to do that.

 

[Traveling teacher]

100% garunteed we are saved by works!!!!!

But it is the work of God through His son Jesus Christ....
God didnt save us through faith alone wo works......
But in truth it isnt our works.....only the cross can save but it is a work of Love.....

God so loved the world that He gave His only son
That all who believe in Him would be saved
John 3:16

 

[JLB]

Everything I've posted is the truth, and I've quoted or cited verses that plainly say what I post.

Nothing you have said changes the fact that eternal life is for those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality.

• eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality;

Other verses doesn’t change this truth.

As Jesus said.

...those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, John 5:29

And again

Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, 20 idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, 21 envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.
Galatians 5:19-21

Justification comes by the work of obedience.


You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only. James 2:24

• a man is justified by works,

The work being referred to here is obedience.

Not works or the law.
Not good deeds.

Obedience to God.

Abraham obeyed when God told him to sacrifice his son on the altar.




JLB

 

[FreeGrace]

MCoop said: ↑
If we are honest, this whole debate or quibble as you say, is about how one is saved or justified before God. By grace or mans works. So you can’t have it both ways

Actually it is both.

Faith plus works isn't Biblical. It's by faith alone. Period.

For eternal life:
John 3:15-16 15 so that whoever believes will in Him have eternal life. 16 "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.

John 3:36 "He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him."

John 5:24 "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

John 6:40 "For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day."

John 6:47 "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes has eternal life.

Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord

1 Tim 1:16 Yet for this reason I found mercy, so that in me as the foremost, Jesus Christ might demonstrate His perfect patience as an example for those who would believe in Him for eternal life.

Gal 3:22 But the Scripture has shut up everyone under sin, so that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe.

1 John 5:13 - These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, so that you may know that you have eternal life.

For salvation:
Mark 16:16 " He who has believed and has been baptized shall be saved; but he who has disbelieved shall be condemned.

Luke 8:12 "Those beside the road are those who have heard; then the devil comes and takes away the word from their heart, so that they will not believe and be saved.

Acts 4:12 "And there is salvation in no one else; for there is no other name under heaven that has been given among men by which we must be saved."

Acts 11:14 and he will speak words to you by which you will be saved, you and all your household.'

Acts 16:31 - They said, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household."

Rom 10:9, 10
9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.

Rom 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.

Eph 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;

2 Tim 3:15 and that from childhood you have known the sacred writings which are able to give you the wisdom that leads to salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.

1 Peter 1:5 who are protected by the power of God through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

1 Peter 1:9 obtaining as the outcome of your faith the salvation of your souls.

So, in these 22 verses, where do we find any mention of works for eternal life or salvation? None. Zip. Nada. Zero.

God’s grace and our work of obedience is how we are saved.

This is basically a claim that Christ's FINISHED work on the cross wasn't enough, and God required more than what Jesus did.

So when Jesus said "it is finished", I guess He was just wrong, if your view were correct.

You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only. James 2:24

As plain as day...a man is justified by works.

• a man is justified by works

JLB

James 2:24 speaks of man's perspective, not God's. Paul's writing in Romans regarding justification is about God's perspective.
Rom 5:1 - Therefore, since we have been justified through faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,

Consider this very clear verse on man's vs God's perspective.
2 Cor 8:21 - For we are taking pains to do what is right, not only in the eyes of the Lord but also in the eyes of man.

 

[PeterJens]

Those things aren't crimes. They are misunderstanding what Scripture says.

Denying any part of the Bible or claiming something opposite to what the Bible plainly says is heretical and denying anything that Jesus said is blasphemous.


I have no idea how someone who claims one is saved by faith plus works can even read Eph 2:8,9.

v.10, btw, is WHAT we have been created FOR: good works.

Good works have NO PLACE in getting saved.

We are saved, not BY good works, but FOR good works. Do you see the difference?

My friend these are just general statements which hold no real meaning.
Saying an individual is guilty of something, you have to actually define what they are guilty of, or you
are just accusing people falsely, which is not behaviour of believers.

It is also judgemental in the most extreme sense with no fear.
Jesus puts this judgementalism like this
But I tell you that anyone who is angry with his brother will be subject to judgment. Again, anyone who says to his brother, 'Raca, 'is answerable to the Sanhedrin. But anyone who says, 'You fool!' will be in danger of the fire of hell.
Matt 5:22

What I have found a common trait is the anger and desire to judge and deal with believers as if they
are fools. Jesus says verbalising this behaviour as a believer against other believers endangers ones
soul.

So my friend, if you are following Christ, my faith in Christ should reassure you I know Christ and am
following Him. It appears to me, this is not your intention or approach, so I have to conclude you just
desire to provoke a response. But I am called to say, God bless, may the Lord love anoint and flow
from your heart, because He is the Lord and ruler of all, Amen.

 

[JLB]

Faith plus works isn't Biblical. It's by faith alone. Period.

You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only. James 2:24


JLB

 

[FreeGrace]

I said:
"But I gave 10 verses that say plainly that eternal life is on the basis of faith, not works, lifestyle, etc."

That refers to being born again.

Not one of them mentions regeneration or being born again. Go ahead and read them again.

I do believe that being born again and being saved are synonymous. iow, can't have one without the other.

No one is born again because of their good deeds.

Neither is anyone saved because of the good deeds.

 

[FreeGrace]

You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only. James 2:24


JLB

I already explained what the verse means. If there is disagreement, feel free to exegete the verse to prove James 2:24 is according to God's perspective.

 

[Rajesh Sahu]

If we are honest, this whole debate or quibble as you say, is about how one is saved or justified before God. By grace or mans works. So you can’t have it both ways. Ephesians 2: 8-10 is so obvious that salvation is solely conditioned in Christ and His merits alone apart from works of man. So straddling the fence on this issue just brings more confusion and does no justice for the truth. If one believes in the very least, his works plays any role towards his justification before God, then that person lacks a repentant heart and has no faith in the gospel of Christ. The very fact that one puts so much value in their works, as many on this thread do, shows how void they are of knowing how wretched and sinful they really are before God. If you believe you have to maintain good works of obedience in order to stay saved and not lose your salvation, then you are completely ignorant of the gospel of Christ that saves. The only thing the elect plead on that great day, is Christ and His righteousness alone. Justification by faith alone is justification by Christ alone apart from mans works. And many on this thread don’t believe this. Anything that is added to this truth is a denial of the gospel, regardless of lip service and mental assent. It’s that simple. Salvation is all of grace, that is by Gods Sovereign elective grace, from start to finish and conditioned solely in Christ and His merits alone received by faith alone.. and this produces good works in the believer from a changed heart via regeneration. The saved in Christ will always bear good fruit. Some 30 fold some 60 fold some 100 fold. This is an absolute by Gods grace and power in salvation. As a good tree will bear good fruit. But this has been said before. It’s only ignored by those who seek to be justified by their works

Why are we dividing faith and good works . Both go hand in hand . Who is saying we are saved by works . Absolutely not. We need to have Faith in the Lord Christ as Savior. The caveat here is He will not tolerate sinful fruitless followers as He Himself repeatedly says . How can we disregard what Christ repeatedly warned ?I again repeat we need BOTH a Repentant faith in Christ and to OBEY Him , else there is a risk as scripture warns us

 

[MCoop]

Actually it is both.

God’s grace and our work of obedience is how we are saved.

IOW obeying the Gospel.

James and Hebrews teaches us this principle.

Faith without the work of obedience is dead.

You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only. James 2:24

As plain as day...a man is justified by works.

• a man is justified by works

JLB

How do you reconcile Romans 4:5? James is just saying ones works gives evidence of true faith. Christ is the elects justification. Faith is the means by which the elect lay hold upon the object of justification, which is Christ. This faith is the mere fruit of a regenerated heart. And this faith is evident in ones fruit of obedience in doctrine and practice. This has been explained but yet the modern day Judaizers on this thread continue to ignore it. For those who give no evidence of repentance and faith in Christ, will manifest bad fruit regardless of their profession of faith in Christ. So James is coming against false professors who use Gods grace as a license for continuing to sin. And for those false professors like the Judaizers who add mans works to the gospel of grace. As Paul says in Romans 6, shall we continue in sin that grace may abound? God forbid.

 

[JLB]

I already explained what the verse means. If there is disagreement, feel free to exegete the verse to prove James 2:24 is according to God's perspective.

Here is what James 2:24 plainly says.

You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.
James 2:24

• a man is justified by works
• and not by faith only.

Here is what Romans 2:7 says.

eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality; Romans 2:7

• eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good

JLB

 

[gr8grace3]

If eternal life is gained by one's deeds, then much of the NT cannot be true. Rom 2:6-8 is about continuance in doing good, which NO MAN can accomplish. Oh, except just One. That One is Jesus Christ. He actually did lie in continuance in doing good. Yet, He never needed to receive eternal life because He already IS eternal life (1 John 5:20).

If there EVER was a person who lived in continuance in doing good, that person would have NO NEED of the saving work of Jesus Christ.

Such a view is nothing more than blasphemy against the Lord Jesus Christ.

Every person in the human race NEEDS the saving work of Jesus Christ.

NO ONE will receive eternal life based on their deeds. Blasphemy is that that is.

Paul wrote Rom 2:6-8 to show mankind that no one can live up to that. Then Paul wrote Rom 3:9,10, 20, 23 to prove that no one can live in continuance of doing good.

So Rom 2:6-8 is a statement of what it would take to get eternal life apart from Christ.

So, how did you receive eternal life?


I've not attacked you. I've refuted your opinions and notions that are in opposition to Scripture.


Did you receive eternal life based on your deeds?

Amen Brother. Amen.

 

[JLB]

How do you reconcile Romans 4:5? James is just saying ones works gives evidence of true faith.

James is defining the law of faith.

Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? Of works? No, but by the law of faith. Romans 3:27

IOW how faith functions.

Faith functions or operates by obedience.

Without the work or action of obedience, faith is dead and inactive, unable to produce the divine result that God intends.

James explains this principle:


21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? 22 Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect? 23 And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.” And he was called the friend of God. 24 You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.

25 Likewise, was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out another way?

26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.
James 2:21-26


Abraham was justified by his obedience, when The Lord told him to offer him s son on the altar.

When the Lord spoke to him, to offer his son, he had faith.

His faith became active when he obeyed and offered his son on the altar, producing the intended justification.

Had he not obeyed, he would not have been justified.


JLB

 

[chessman]

In John 15:5-6 Jesus plainly says ANYONE who does not ABIDE in me is thrown away.

ANYONE means ANYONE

You’re sure, anyone means anyone?

So anyone could, in fact, mean someone who does not abide in Jesus, right?

 

[Rajesh Sahu]

Here is what James 2:24 plainly says.

You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.
James 2:24

• a man is justified by works
• and not by faith only.

Here is what Romans 2:7 says.

eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality; Romans 2:7

• eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good

JLB

Well said , you speak prudently. Scripture is very clear Faith is DEAD without good works. And if the Faith is found Dead by the Lord on the day of judgement, how can that person be saved . He/ she never qualified for the saving grace . The connection therefore is clear. If we profess to have faith in Lord Jesus as Savior then our faith must manifest itself in form of good works . Thus we need both --- Repentant faith as well as to Obey.
Only then will we have full grace of God .
Consider the great commission of the Lord Jesus Himself
Matthew 28:18-20
18 Then Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me.
19 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations,"baptizing in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit," teaching them to OBEY EVERYTHING I HAVE COMMANDED you. And surely I am with you alway to the very end of the age.”
i feel blessed that we are teaching what the Christ Himself taught . And this is a vital verse since through this command He was sending His disciples across the globe with the DOCTRINE Jesus wanted them / us to share
So my question to all nay sayers to OBEDIENCE is should we do what Jesus commanded or should we believe what many Churches are teaching nowadays ( no obedience needed for salvation)
I believe this kind of doctrine is TOXIC as it attempts to Contravene what the Lord Jesus commanded

 

[dirtfarmer]

James is defining the law of faith.



IOW how faith functions.

Faith functions or operates by obedience.

Without the work or action of obedience, faith is dead and inactive, unable to produce the divine result that God intends.

James explains this principle:


21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? 22 Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect? 23 And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.” And he was called the friend of God. 24 You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.

25 Likewise, was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out another way?

26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.
James 2:21-26


Abraham was justified by his obedience, when The Lord told him to offer him s son on the altar.

When the Lord spoke to him, to offer his son, he had faith.

His faith became active when he obeyed and offered his son on the altar, producing the intended justification.

Had he not obeyed, he would not have been justified.


JLB

hello JLB, dirtfarmer here

Am I to understand that Abram was not justified when he believed God and then departed Haran and began his journey to Canaan in Genesis 12?

 

[ezra]

Ezra, It cannot lead to a works based salvation because not amount of works can save us.

AFTER we are saved we are required to serve God and not to serve the enemy.
Before salvation we are ALL serving the enemy. Even those of us who believe we are doing good, because it is the heart that has not changed and our "direction" which has not changed.

And if we serving satan before, is it not proper to serve God now?
Our working for God, whatever that work may be, is a sign and a confirmation of our salvation. Without works we have a dead faith. A faith that is of no good to anyone. This is what James says.
James 2:17

Of what value if our faith if we do nothing for our God?
Jesus did leave us with some commandments to follow.

and i agree %100 with you what i can not agree with is JLB point.. when i said fishers of men we catch them God cleans them... then he added conditions

God will cleanse those who repent and obey him.

conditions... if this be the case throw the old hymn out just as i am w/o one plea along with Ephesians 2 saved by grace through faith not of works it is the gift of God.. much like the church i attend i am not a pastor at this time. hope to be somewhere down the line. if they need adult s.s teacher i step up. if the pastor ask me to preach i do so. it is my calling my work . when i got saved i knew Nothing about obey/ repentance. the only thing for justification which is same as Grace .is a willing heart God will give us that heart to know him through the Holy Spirit.. so Romans 2 has nothing to do with us being saved works follows salvation .if we depend on works to keep us saved then burn the cross down to ashes blow the tomb up to rubble . appreciate your friendship even though you live in a different nation ..so tell me how strong is Christianity in italy and how well excepted .. to be honest i am tired of the negative hogwash..