Where does the Bible say that?
And, if so, what is the purpose of the Great White Throne Judgment then?
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Justification and Sanctification
- Thread starter Johan
- Start date
And, if so, what is the purpose of the Great White Throne Judgment then?
For all this logic, there is for me a simple problem. 2,000 years of saying, you need to walk in my ways
they are the way to life, you are righteous if you walk in my ways, I am the source of life, love and hope.
Then zap, believe on me Jesus, and thats it, your life style, actions are irrelevant you are now in heaven.
Ofcourse one could believe this, but it makes no sense.
What does make sense is Jesus is the cornerstone, the very fulfillment of the promise of eternal life,
the embodiment of God and His heart. Get this and walk in it and you have eternal life.
To get it, means you walk in it. Trying to get in it by walking in it fails, because it is a heart and emotional
reality not just intellectual assent. Oddly for those who talk about faith alone, it appears to just be an
intellectual assent and not a reality.
So my friend, either you know this, or you do not. And knowing it is being born into it, having Jesus as
ones Lord, friend, saviour, friend, leader, teacher, anointer, all in all. It is like falling in love, those who have
know what it is, but until you go through it, it is just a description. Jesus captivates my soul, He is my King,
the Lord to whom I bow, the source of what I am. I ebb and flow, and get buffeted, but this is where my heart
is and the more I experience the deeper it gets. David knew this
This has been my practice: I obey your precepts.
You are my portion, O LORD; I have promised to obey your words.
I have sought your face with all my heart; be gracious to me according to your promise.
Psalm 119:56-58
If your heart sings to this, you know what I am speaking about, but from past interactions, this appears not
to be your response. So all I can say is, God bless you. I am unable to know what else to share, this is my
reality. I wonder if you can allow me to be blessed in the Lord in this, and rejoice also in a fellow believer
walking in His ways and praising His name, or is there something else that bothers you?
Here are those who will receive eternal life.
- eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality; Romans 2:7
You have two choices here:
Either believe.
Or
Do not believe.
Again
- those who have done good, to the resurrection of life
Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation. John 5:28-29
That may be your perspective, however it won’t change the truth of what Romans 2:7 and John 5:29 teach us.
When we confess our sin are are forgiven and cleansed of all unrighteousness, He remembers our sin no more. We stand before Him as clean and spotless.
We keep on, and learn from our mistake, while continuing to do what is right in His eyes, loving our neighbor and walking in truth.
Paitient continuance means we don’t give up doing good, even if we stumble.
Just as the team that is driving for the end zone, may not get a first down on every play, yet they continue pushing forward one play at a time never quitting but patiently trusting the play caller and doing what he says, everyone doing their job pressing toward the goal one play at a time.
JLB
Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation. John 5:28-29
Done is the key word.
It doesn’t say those who have “believed good”, but rather those who have
“Done good”.
Likewise those who “done evil”...
Not “believed evil”.
Expressing our faith through love, is obeying the One who dwells within us, empowering and inspiring us to practice righteousness.
You seem to have mixed up some verses about works and initial salvation.
No one is born again (saved) by doing good works.
JLB
Please point out the word “fellowship” in John 15:6.
ezra
Member
the process of sanctification and justification for the person getting saved has nothing do with obey other than when he speaks we obey by following with him calling us to salvation ...justification is a one time process sanctify is a work in progress. certainly roman 2.is addressed to the christian . but why would we not want to repent and obey? you keep wanting to add works
How can there be any problem with logic?? Something is either logical, or illogical. And what I gave was 10 verses about how to have eternal life. Straightforward.
Whoever says lifestyle/actions are "irrelevant"?? They sure aren't. But the point is simple. One is saved by faith in the FINISHED work of Christ. Isn't it obvious that if one's actions/lifestyle were necessary (relevant) for salvation, then Christ's work wasn't ENOUGH and God requires MORE than what Jesus did.
How could any believer think that?
Yes, of course such a view makes no sense. Because it isn't taught in Scripture. So it's neither Scriptural or logical.
No, the 10 verses I have given tell us quite clearly how to have (possess) eternal life.
But it seems your view is different from what Jesus said.
No, to get it means to believe in it. The 10 verses I provided say so in clear, plain words.
Forum rules require providing Scriptural support for one's claims. Where are yours?
Do you not understand what intellectual assent means? It means to acknowledge as truth. It doesn't mean a passing nod, as it seems you're insinuating.
I surely know what the Scriptures teach about having eternal life. And I shared many verses that say so clearly. Maybe instead of disagreeing with me, there is disagreement with what Scripture says.
It seems your "discernment" is quite faulty. What I strongly disagree with regarding your view is that one's own works/lifestyle/actions are necessary/relevant in order to be saved.
That, my friend, is an afront to the Lord Jesus Christ. He did it ALL. There is absolutely NOTHING anyone can add to the FINISHED work of Christ in order to be saved. It is quite sad that so many think otherwise.
He does, far above my ability to comprehend.
But such a "reality" is in reality, not the reality of the Bible. Which I've shown from Scripture.
Again, what I am strongly opposed to in your view is the notion that Christ's works isn't FINISHED, and man must contribute his own works, also called actions/lifestyle in order to be saved.
For me, that is heresy and blasphemy against the FINISHED work of Christ, who died and and PAID FOR all my sins on the cross.
The ONLY WAY to be saved is to trust in the FINISHED work of Christ and Him alone.
If one has always thought that their own works/actions/lifestyle were necessary in order to be saved, along with faith in Christ, I would argue that salvation is not in that view.
Because grace and works are diametrically opposed. They NEVER go together.
Papa Zoom
CF Ambassador
Hmmmm, grace and works always go together. We are saved unto good works. We are not saved by works but we are saved FOR good works.
I hate that Christians quibble over such things. One side wants to protect grace at all costs and the other side wants to protect works even at the cost of grace. I'm with Charlie Brown: "Good grief"
The grace side quotes Eph 2:8,9 and the other side just v 10. Never quote a Bible verse. Context and big picture matter.
8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast. 10 For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.
OK, now yer talking. If you believe "continuance in doing good" means to believe in the finished work of Christ, then yes, that's how one obtains eternal life.
Why not just say so way back at the beginning?
As long as one understands that "going good" or "done good" refers to faith alone in Christ's FINISHED work on the cross, then yes.
yep. v.24 defines how one HAS (possesses) eternal life. Through believing.
That's the concept of "abiding" in Him.
But since there is such disagreement, please show any verse that teaches how one has to abide in order to be placed IN HIM, and then I'll accept your view.
But until then, there is no reason to believe that. We are commanded to abide in Him (John 15), to continue in Him (1 Jn 2:28) and to remain in Him (1 Jn 2:27).
If abiding, continuing, or remaining in Him is a requirement for salvation, then we are saved by our own efforts to: abide, continue, remain.
What we ARE commanded to do is to be filled with the Holy Spirit (Eph 5:18), to walk by means of the Spirit (Gal 5:16), and to STOP grieving the Holy Spirit (Eph 4:30) and to STOP quenching the Spirit (1 Thess 5:19).
By obeying these 2 positive (to DO) and 2 negative (to STOP doing) commands, we are in fellowship with the Lord.
How can anyone who either grieves or quenches the Spirit be in fellowship? That makes no sense.
I do wish you'd address these verses and explain your understanding of them. That would help me further understand your views.
But since you haven't yet, my conclusion is that your understanding of spirituality, spiritual growth and progressive sanctification are woefully lacking.
But suit yourself.
No sir.
This is written to those who have believed in Him and the finished work of the cross.
The instruction is to continue to do good.
You are trying to redefine what doing good means, by suggesting it doesn’t really mean doing good, but believing at some point in time in the past.
Likewise doing evil means doing things that are evil, like murder, or sexual immorality or lying or stealing or idolatry.
It is those who practice righteousness, that are righteous.
Little children, let no one deceive you. He who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous. 1 John 3:7
JLB
No one is born again by doing good deeds.
That doesn't mean they go together. It means works SHOULD follow grace through faith. It's a command to do good works. But not for salvation.
So do I.
The balance should be obvious. We are saved by grace, and do works from that gratitude.
And that's the problem with the works side. They fail to understand that v10 is the purpose of being saved through faith. "unto" or "FOR" good works.
We aren't saved BY good works, which it seems the works side like to read it.
The bolded words are quite clear. We were created in Christ Jesus TO DO good works.
It doesn't say "to be saved by good works".
Thanks for bolding the words for clarity.
The word Fellowship is not found in John 15:6.
The branch is not in “fellowship” with the vine.
That would imply our relationship with the Lord is temporary instead of permanent.
JLB
I said:
"OK, now yer talking. If you believe "continuance in doing good" means to believe in the finished work of Christ, then yes, that's how one obtains eternal life."
You are trying to redefine what doing good means, by suggesting it doesn’t really mean doing good, but believing at some point in time in the past.[/QUOTE]
No, you're trying to redefine how one gets eternal life; by doing good. That's exactly what the Pharisees thought, and Jesus blasted them for their legalism and error.
John 5 -
39 You study the Scriptures diligently because you think that in them you have eternal life. These are the very Scriptures that testify about me,
40 yet you refuse to come to me to have life.
"OK, now yer talking. If you believe "continuance in doing good" means to believe in the finished work of Christ, then yes, that's how one obtains eternal life."
Good grief! All this flip flopping gets dizzying. Apparently your views are rather fluid. Which is why it's been so difficult to even try to have a meaningful conversation with you. You're making it way harder than it needs to be.
The instruction is to continue to do good.
You are trying to redefine what doing good means, by suggesting it doesn’t really mean doing good, but believing at some point in time in the past.[/QUOTE]
No, you're trying to redefine how one gets eternal life; by doing good. That's exactly what the Pharisees thought, and Jesus blasted them for their legalism and error.
John 5 -
39 You study the Scriptures diligently because you think that in them you have eternal life. These are the very Scriptures that testify about me,
40 yet you refuse to come to me to have life.
No, Paul taught that we are only righteous through faith in Christ. It's called imputed righteousness. We are credited with Christ's righteousness through faith in Him. The ENTIRE chapter of Romans 4 teaches this. Please review it.
I'm just sorry that my posts aren't being understood. But they are clear enough.The word Fellowship is not found in John 15:6.
The branch is not in “fellowship” with the vine.
That would imply our relationship with the Lord is temporary instead of permanent.
JLB
Believers who don't understand the need for fellowship cannot possibly grow up in their salvation.
ezra
Member
i agree with this post my only problem with roman 2 of the obey and doing good. or should i say the question i ask.. do we have to work to be saved? or is peter wrong in saying it is kept by the power of God(our salvation .. i am not a over zealous grace person or works.. it is my point if we go saying obey and do good. that can lead to a work based salvation,that seems to be the direction jlb is going . i dont preach or teach eternal security nor do i teach/preach you can walk away from salvation . my reason i looked at scriptures on both sides of the fence . my ordination is general baptist they believe you can walk away . i have also looked at the southern baptist belief. what i can not go along with is works to keep us saved. yes we have responsibility . yes good works follow salvation as you pointed out ,
works has it place we do good because we want to please the Lord. i by far do not want this to be a i have a more perfect doctrine.
John 3:18
"He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God."
NASB
As to the Great White Throne Judgement.
I know not.
Eschatology is not my forte'.
I think the unsaved are told all they did wrong and then thrown into the Lake of Fire. It's found in revelation and speaks to works, which I do believe in.
Revelation 20:11-13New King James Version (NKJV)
The Great White Throne Judgment
11 Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away. And there was found no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God,a]" data-fn="#fen-NKJV-31051a">[a] and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books. 13 The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works.