Justification and Sanctification

[FreeGrace]

The seal of the Holy Spirit refers to a mark of authenticity, such as a kings seal that comes from a signet ring on a letter, authenticating that it is genuine.

The Holy Spirit is the seal of authenticity in those who believe.

Those who believe for a while, then return to unbelief, do not believe any longer.

Where does the Bible say that a former believer is no longer sealed? Is there any?

But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away.
Luke 8:13

Please explain how falling away from one's faith equals loss of salvation.

Please provide a scripture that says those who do not believe, are granted God’s seal of authenticity which is only promised to those who believe.
JLB

Sure. Because Jesus said those He gives eternal life shall never perish.

If we apply your notions to what Jesus said in John 10:28, He would HAVE HAD to say this:
I give them eternal life, AND AS LONG AS they continue to believe, they shall never perish.

Or,
I give them eternal life, and IF they continue to believe, they shall never perish.

Those 2 statement contain conditions for never perishing.

Jesus gave no conditions.

 

[JLB]

There are no conditions in John 10:28. Jesus said that those He gives eternal life shall never perish. No conditions.

The conditions are found in verse 27, in which verse 28 completes and is a part of verse 27.

Here let me show you what I mean.

27 My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. 28 And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. John 10:27-28

The word “and” is a conjunction and connects what Jesus said in verse 27 with what He promises in verse 28.

If there is no condition required for eternal life, then we all should believe the doctrine of Universal Salvation.

But since verse 27 does exist, and defines the conditions for eternal life, we know that Universal Salvation is heresy.


JLB

 

[JLB]

I said this:
"I said:"This certainly brings up a great question for the osnas group. If salvation can be lost, how is it regained, or can it ever be? And what verses would lead one to such a view?"

There are zero verses that make this claim. Zero.

Further, Jesus made such an event impossible, because He made 3 very important points about one's security.

POINT 1: Jesus said that those who believe POSSSESS eternal life. John 3:15,16,36, 5:24, 6:40,47, 11:25-27.
POINT 2; Jesus gives the gift of eternal life. John 10:28a
POINT 3. Jesus said that recipients of eternal life shall never perish. John 10:28b

If there is disagreement with these 3 points, please provide how any of them are incorrect and include verses that clearly indicate so."

Dodge.

Please go to the thread about sheep becoming lost and I will answer over there.

 

[ezra]

Hi ezra,
I think I understand your point.
A person who truly knows Christ, walks in the Holy Spirit will show the fruit and live a life appropriate.

Now there are people who seem to do this, and exercise faith etc, yet fall away. In practical terms
we have to call them saved, because they appear as such, so equally a saved person appears to have
fallen away.

I had a friend who got so upset, he said he would happily go to hell than change his attitude towards
a family upset that had happened. It took a year, and finally he repented and walked in the love of
Christ again.

This is where I put my ideas and verses to one side and just love people where they are.
God will judge as He will judge, but I am called to feel with people through their pain and suffering.
This is where being open and honest, and learning to let love express itself matters more than example
verses, or security in one set of beliefs or another. The Lord is not going to ask for which version one
believed but how we walked and how we shared His love and will with others, or just lost it and blasted
those around us aside. And the kind of things said about me because of me not standing with certain
approaches speaks more about what their hearts are full of than Christ at all.

Everything flows from our communion with God, through Jesus, yet you would believe it is actually from
a book of doctrines or being reminded of unconfessed sins, or someone daring to suggest Christ has some
issues with their life, though nothing is said, just felt. I am not surprised as people know longer want to behave
like Christ or even have this as a goal, it is little wonder there is so much antagonism when those who carry
the light share it.

that is pretty close.. here is my point jlb uses the phrase saved but also walking in the flesh... so my question is how can we be saved spirit empowered . when we are saved we become a new creation in Christ. in collisions paul write take the old man off and put the new man on.. certainly i am not implying a perfect sinless walk... because we will sin that is where we have the Advocate ..john wrote that you sin not but if you do... so to say one is saved empowered by the spirit.. but still practicing the works of the flesh ??? to that is saying i am no longer a alcoholic but i am still going to drink on the weekend. .

we have such a wide variety of so called beliefs. live by the 10 commandments as one friend of mine said the Bible is written by a bunch of men . it means nothing but yet she still loves Jesus and is saved... so jlb description Does not compute or line up with scripture , in case any one has a hard time understanding a know so salvation 1 john 3 says that we may know we have eternal life... i dont have a hope so think so maybe so salvation i have the real thing--salvation

.that is not osas or osnas teaching but it is written prof .that i know beyond any shadow of doubt i am saved.. i go to bed saved i wake up saved.. i am that secure in my salvation . if any one wants to question this.. start a new thread /post and i will be more than happy to show the security of our salvation.. once again this is not eternal security doctrine.. BUT BIBLE 1 John 5:13 - These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, so that you may " know that you have eternal life.""

 

[GodsGrace]

Italian right? So that's a why. The why is because you place yourself in the seat of judgement saying exactly what would have happened. You can't. First and only reason necessary being that Paul wasn't the author of what he was actually writing down. That crown lies at the feet of the King, and He knew exactly what He was doing.


Yes all that was already in my brain.


What does that have to do with screaming in all caps that there is no such thing as being sealed with the holy spirit?


You don't need me to do that for you. It is very plainly written. You already know the answer is verse 2 so why ask me?

Paul was the author of what he was writing down. We're going to have to agree to disagree on this since it's a personal opinion. God did not sit at a computer and write. He did not dictate into a machine and Paul wrote what God said.
The bible is inspired. Paul studied for three years and spoke to many before writing down his theology.

When I have a conflict of interest, such as the sealing, I like to go to Jesus. Jesus said we will be judged by our deeds; by how we behave in the Kindgom of God (right here on earth). Paul is more comforting because he said some things that do not agree with the rest of scripture. Sorry. I should say Paul DOES agree with Jesus, but some take his words to mean different concepts DIFFERENT from what Jesus taught. They taught the same ideas.

Screaming in caps. I just recently learned that it's screaming. To me it's emphasizing. I apologize if it sounded like screaming. But here's why:
I've taken the time to write a whole page on why sealing is not a correct concept, only to have it ignored. And I'm soooo tired of hearing this. We need to go to different scripture. OSAS cannot be based only on sealing because it seems like such an air-tight argument. It isn't.

See. Even you are telling me it's not possible. Would you like to SERIOUSLY talk only about the sealing? I'm willing...

 

[GodsGrace]

There are no conditions in John 10:28. Jesus said that those He gives eternal life shall never perish. No conditions.


Give me a break. Of course it is. When God guarantees something, you can take it to the bank.


There is no small print. What do you take the Bible for anyway? Some kind of insurance policy with a bunch of loopholes???


Who cares what "some" claim?? Let's just focus on what God says. Isn't that enough?


One needs to get their eyes on God and OFF "others".


You've made many claims and have failed to back any of them up with Scripture. The forum rules are to provide verses that support one's claims. Please consider that when making claims. And your claim here isn't found in Scripture.


God's guarantees aren't not some kind of "small print" with loopholes, etc. They are clear enough. When Jesus said He gives those who believe eternal life and they shall never perish, He meant just that. Exactly that.

PRESENT TENSE works really well.
But you don't know about that tense.

 

[ezra]

put off the old man :correction i said Colossians even spelled it wrong.. my grammar is not real good... this is the correct verse
Ephesians 4:22-24King James Version (KJV)
22 That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts;

23 And be renewed in the spirit of your mind;

24 And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness. it is a every day battle paul in reference put on put off is like changing clothes .. we buy new clothes we take off our old and put on the new.. paul wrote to be not conformed to this world but transformed by the renewing of our mind... this is the sanctification that takes place in us we have to mortify the old man put to death.. through the power of the holy spirit

 

[Northman]

The seal of the Holy Spirit refers to a mark of authenticity, such as a kings seal that comes from a signet ring on a letter, authenticating that it is genuine.

The Holy Spirit is the seal of authenticity in those who believe.

Those who believe for a while, then return to unbelief, do not believe any longer.

But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away.
Luke 8:13

• who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away.

Please provide a scripture that says those who do not believe, are granted God’s seal of authenticity which is only promised to those who believe.



JLB

I'm not actually going to provide you with anything. You don't answer questions and only barrage, remember? We already went through this before. Someone said that there is no such thing as being sealed with the Holy Spirit. Scripture says otherwise. I don't care one whit the context of the conversation you are or think you are having. The words are there in the Bible, chapter and verse were given. It says people were sealed with the Holy Spirit. I don't care how you want to explain what you think it means or how it applies. The words "no such thing as being sealed with the Holy Spirit" were said, and to claim that, is false.

 

[Northman]

Paul was the author of what he was writing down. We're going to have to agree to disagree on this since it's a personal opinion. God did not sit at a computer and write. He did not dictate into a machine and Paul wrote what God said.
The bible is inspired. Paul studied for three years and spoke to many before writing down his theology.

Yeah it will be a disagreement. Paul was the machine. If I thought Paul was just out there getting ideas, listening to input from people, and forming a compilation of "his" theology, I would use my Bibles for toilet paper.

I've taken the time to write a whole page on why sealing is not a correct concept, only to have it ignored. And I'm soooo tired of hearing this. We need to go to different scripture. OSAS cannot be based only on sealing because it seems like such an air-tight argument. It isn't.

See. Even you are telling me it's not possible. Would you like to SERIOUSLY talk only about the sealing? I'm willing...

It doesn't matter if you are OSAS or non-OSAS. Ephesians 1:13 says people were sealed with the Holy Spirit, you said that there is no such thing.

 

[Rajesh Sahu]

Saying Jesus is in my heart is just another way of saying something else about one's relationship with the Savior. It is Biblical depending on what one means. If one simply means they acknowledge who He says He is, that's of no avail. One can believe the claims of Christ without following him.

But if one means by Jesus is in (their) heart that they seek repentance (Acts 3:19) (a changed heart that agrees with God) and want to become a follower of Jesus, that they understand that apart from Jesus' reconciling us to God we remain lost, then yes, it's quite a biblical thing to say: (Ephesians 3:17) It's another way of saying they want Jesus in their life. It says, "I'm a believer in HIM and I depend on him for my salvation." (John 3:16; Acts 16:31)

Salvation isn't about believing a bunch of facts, it's about believing in and following a person. Jesus Christ. I suspect that because explaining what it means or the "how to" in following Christ is much more involved, Christians in good faith sought to narrow evangelism explanations into something easy to understand (but which in reality doesn't help a new convert understand anything).

Knowing that such a statement lacks clarity, I no longer use it. It's probably easier to focus on becoming a follower of Jesus and a Believer in Jesus followed by an exact explanation of what that means.

I'm not sure but I may have just strayed off topic.

I wholeheartedly agree with what you said Papa. Amen. God bless all with true understanding of His Word

 

[GodsGrace]

Yeah it will be a disagreement. Paul was the machine. If I thought Paul was just out there getting ideas, listening to input from people, and forming a compilation of "his" theology, I would use my Bibles for toilet paper.


It doesn't matter if you are OSAS or non-OSAS. Ephesians 1:13 says people were sealed with the Holy Spirit, you said that there is no such thing.

There is no such thing as being sealed with the Holy Spirit forever.
Study up on Paul.

Yeah it will be a disagreement. Paul was the machine. If I thought Paul was just out there getting ideas, listening to input from people, and forming a compilation of "his" theology, I would use my Bibles for toilet paper.


It doesn't matter if you are OSAS or non-OSAS. Ephesians 1:13 says people were sealed with the Holy Spirit, you said that there is no such thing.

You misunderstood about Paul. My bad, not yours.
Paul went off into the desert for three years and received revelation. He says so himself.
Galatians 1:11 to 2:2

He did speak to the Apostle Peter after his three years in the desert, in Jerusalem. He also me with James, Jesus' brother. Paul stayed with Peter 2 weeks, no doubt they discussed the revelations he (Paul) had received.
Galatians 1:18

Because they were exchanging information and getting "input" as you called it, does not mean the input was not inspired. Peter was with Jesus over 3 years, as was James in Jesus' ministry, although he had spend a life-time with Him.
So in no case is the bible to be used as you said...rather crudely I must say.

I've said many times that Paul DOES NOT disagree with Jesus, as some would believe. This statement of mine alone will perfectly reconcile with what I've said above.

I've spent some time on this because those who know me know how much I respect scritprue, but there are many new members here whom I would not like to get the wrong idea about me.

I see you don't care to discuss the "sealing".
Fine.
But do not trust on these versus for your salvation.
We are sealed for as long as we wish to remain sealed.
Many leave the faith and the sealing is of no use to them since they are no longer "sealed".

 

[ezra]

There is no such thing as being sealed with the Holy Spirit forever.
Study up on Paul.

the earnest of our inheritance " until the redemption " of the purchased possession, unto the praise his glory.

no place does it say he removes it many use this to base osas.. this is not what i am posting .the seal is seal of officially belonging to him

We are sealed for as long as we wish to remain sealed.
Many leave the faith and the sealing is of no use to them since they are no longer "sealed".

there is no scripture to prove this wrong or right ..it all falls back to our convictions
What Does Redemption Mean to Christians?
The Christian use of redemption means Jesus Christ, through his sacrificial death, purchased believers from the slavery of sin to set us free from that bondage.

Another Greek word relating to this term is exagorazo. Redemption always involves going from something to something else. In this case it is Christ freeing us from the bondage of the law to freedom of a new life in him.

The third Greek word connected with redemption is lutroo, meaning "to obtain release by the payment of a price." The price (or ransom), in Christianity, was Christ's precious blood, obtaining our release from sin and death.

 

[Rajesh Sahu]

Where does the Bible say that a former believer is no longer sealed? Is there any?


Please explain how falling away from one's faith equals loss of salvation.


Sure. Because Jesus said those He gives eternal life shall never perish.

If we apply your notions to what Jesus said in John 10:28, He would HAVE HAD to say this:
I give them eternal life, AND AS LONG AS they continue to believe, they shall never perish.

Or,
I give them eternal life, and IF they continue to believe, they shall never perish.

Those 2 statements contain conditions for never perishing.

Jesus gave no conditions.

Free, when you quote verses that imply we are saved by faith, the quotes are correct, yet the salvation doctrine is not---- in my opinion. I would like to illustrate the analogy of each MALE (cell) having X and Y chromosomes, to enable me to explain my view.
If Joe were to say George has X chromosome, Joe would be right. Because George has X chromosome ( in his cells). But if Joe were to insist that George was made by X chromosomes ONLY then Joe is obviously wrong. because he has both X and Y chromosomes and NOT X alone. So when FREE you keep quoting verses which speak of Faith in Christ is needed for salvation ---- I absolutely agree. That's the truth. the problem is there is LIKE the Y chromosome in my illustration, OBEDIENCE is also needed because Christ Himself cautions and explains us in a number of verses which I and many here, like Wondering Peter jens JLB and others have often quoted. NT is full of it ( paramount importance of Deeds/ obedience). that obedience does NOT come from Christ but from our FREE WILL--- our willingness to obey Him. Consider the great commission of the Lord ( Matthew 28:18-20) OR his caveat of Abiding in Him John 15: 5-6
"I am the vine; you are the branches. If you remain in me and I in you, you will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing.
If you do not remain in me, you are like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned."
I believe Jesus is saying in a crystal clear manner here that inobedient believers will be judged ... and more
Again Christ says in Matthew 5:13 ►
"You are the salt of the earth. But if the salt loses its saltiness, how can it be made salty again? It is no longer good for anything, except to be thrown out and trampled underfoot."
As i previously mentioned if faith alone could save then demons would also be saved, for they did believe in Christ as the begotten son of God( Mark 1: 24). But they didn't obey the Lord. They chose to do evil despite knowing Christ's deity. I believe either PeterJens or JLB mentioned Judas being a believer too. Definitely, he was a "believer" But he fell to wicked ways. Did his faith in Christ save him? I would think not, because his works were otherwise
We can, of course, argue he never had faith in the first place. That's the point I am also making. For those who claim to be in Christ, must accept him as Supreme Lord too and therefore OBEY.
Interesting excerpt from Capitol Ministries which makes a similar point on " easy believism" doctrine
I produce it hereunder for readers reference and perusal ( words in green)
https://capmin.org/will-jesus-say-to-you-i-never-knew-you/

In Matthew 7:21-23 He says:
“Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter. Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?’ And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me you who practice lawlessness.’”

A popular, faulty theology of “salvation” is called “easy believism.” At its core, there is a “belief ” in Jesus void of consideration for the biblical definition of who He is. Followers thus “receive” Jesus according to their understanding of whom they think Jesus is — in contrast to what the Bible reveals. In Romans 10:9-10 Scripture states:

That if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.

Believe in your heart (pisteuo kardia) is the Greek idea of volitional commitment — something Jesus says that was not present in those He was speaking about in Matthew 7 (above). The Lord, Lord, quote therein refers to the tragic faultiness of intellectual assent only, versus the believe in your heart volitional commitment that is indicative of authentic salvation. These passages more than suggest that to be truly saved one must not only give intellectual agreement, but volitionally submit to the fact that Jesus is Lord, (kurios) which means “sovereign,” “master,” or “boss.” Kurios is used as a descriptor of Jesus 747 times in the NT! Biblically informed belief in Jesus then, requires one to turn from all other understanding(s) as to who he thinks Jesus is and bow the knee to His Lordship. This is known as repentance. In contrast, self-informed thinking of Jesus — thinking of Him in another way, or lesser way, will not get us there (cf. 2Cor. 11:4)!
==================================xxx=======================xxx===================xxx=============

My friends, I believe Jesus expects both FAITH and OBEDIENCE from His followers. We cannot merely accept Him as Savior and not as the Lord. That's going to be counter-productive. Its time from "believers" we progressed to becoming TRUE followers by keeping the Lord's commands and bearing fruit for the kingdom. Lip service, in my opinion, will not be enough to save anyone. Yes we will stumble in the walk, but the HS will help us pick up our cross and follow the Lord.... until a day will come when its all over
Lord God I pray for your mercy on ALL those who are good willed and I pray for wisdom for all who are ignorant ( which includes me) and change of heart for those who have chosen to follow the wicked, so that they may come to the knowledge of truth for Lord you want all people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth ( 1 Tim 2: 3-4) .
I end my post with these words of the Lord God
Exodus 33:19 ----"I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion".
God bless everyone

 

[PeterJens]

Tendencies.
If you believe you will never perish, cannot be taken out of Christs hands, sealed with a deposit.

Now all of these things are true, but why is it some want to add to the words beyond their obvious
meaning?
It is like saying to someone who gets on a lifeboat, after floating in the sea and saying you are safe
now, no more worries. No one would think this was still true if they then jump back into the sea
and swim away from the life boat. That is putting yourself back in danger, with no safety.

But it strikes me people are happy to say this in a spiritual sense.
In a marriage it is strong while each party love and care for each other. Why should they fear or
doubt? Why is the basis of this relationship the reason they would leave or come into trauma?
Unless ofcourse it is not real, or founded on something solid, or only temporary commitment
which could be thrown over if something better comes along. I mean, then you might want a
guaranteed, unbreakable bond, in case one suddenly decides to abuse it all, and it turns out
to be true, you are safe? I think this is what would be called hypocracy and not real faith, just
dabbling, wanting all the benefits without the cost. And the cost, ones life, is a little steep, anything
to suggest a compromise here or there is ok, and how dare you suggest I am still a sinner, even if
sinning still binds me......

25> The man who loves his life will lose it, while the man who hates his life in this world will keep it for eternal life.
26> Whoever serves me must follow me; and where I am, my servant also will be. My Father will honor the one who serves me.
John 12:25-26

10> For, "Whoever would love life and see good days must keep his tongue from evil and his lips from deceitful speech.
11> He must turn from evil and do good; he must seek peace and pursue it.
12> For the eyes of the Lord are on the righteous and his ears are attentive to their prayer, but the face of the Lord is against those who do evil."
1 Peter 3:10-12

 

[GodsGrace]

the earnest of our inheritance " until the redemption " of the purchased possession, unto the praise his glory.

no place does it say he removes it many use this to base osas.. this is not what i am posting .the seal is seal of officially belonging to him there is no scripture to prove this wrong or right ..it all falls back to our convictions
What Does Redemption Mean to Christians?
The Christian use of redemption means Jesus Christ, through his sacrificial death, purchased believers from the slavery of sin to set us free from that bondage.

Another Greek word relating to this term is exagorazo. Redemption always involves going from something to something else. In this case it is Christ freeing us from the bondage of the law to freedom of a new life in him.

The third Greek word connected with redemption is lutroo, meaning "to obtain release by the payment of a price." The price (or ransom), in Christianity, was Christ's precious blood, obtaining our release from sin and death.

Ezra,
I agree that we should not depend on the passages regarding this "sealing" people want to talk about. It's much more complicated than just accepting the concept of a sealing...as you have correctly pointed out.

I think what happens is that we get so caught up in our belief system that we then close our mind to everything else. I read carefully before I answer someone and look into their belief. I have to be to disprove it to myself in order to continue. I know that I could be wrong too.

I've studied up on this concept of sealing and even spoke about it to a priest friend of mine and he agrees. We are sealed, indeed, for as long as we want to be.

God will not force us into heaven kicking and screaming.
We have to WANT to go there.
And this is the overall correct belief.

I like your open-mindedness.

 

[PeterJens]

Obedience
This is a hard idea, our hearts rebel against it, being good, being praised, conforming,
not causing a fuss, looking out for others rather than ourselves.

But let me share, obedience comes from a place of strength, knowing our lostness and
Christs love, expressing it. Obedience is not a wip that forces you to do something.
In Christ it is a discovery of why we react in particular ways that stop love from being shown
and then working through it, in humbleness, forgiveness, and hope.

Now I know for some in their childhood obedience was about punishment and sometimes
violence, bending to anothers will, while sacrificing ones own.

Christ asks us to learn His way, to see as He sees, to know as He knows.
When you see the fruits of greed, anger, violence, envy, jealousy, lust, self indulgence,
sexual immorality, you will begin to understand why one weeps.
We live is a world where almost anything is possible, yet people are still unhappy and alone,
unable to connect or know another loving them.

The problem is not a lack of things, but how we think and care about others and things.
Jesus is offering a walk of life, away from the passions of this world into eternity.
It is a walk, just the next step, along the path, and we all change. It is a promise of the Kingdom
that maturity and fullness in His image will be found.

This maturity means walking in His ways because one sees this is life and love, and the rebellion
and passions have faded away and the heart is pure. I suspect whatever battles different people
face, for some this is not what they thought coming to Christ was. But this is the power of the
cross, and the Kingdom of Heaven, Halleluyah.

 

[GodsGrace]

Free, when you quote verses that imply we are saved by faith, the quotes are correct, yet the salvation doctrine is not---- in my opinion. I would like to illustrate the analogy of each MALE (cell) having X and Y chromosomes, to enable me to explain my view.
If Joe were to say George has X chromosome, Joe would be right. Because George has X chromosome ( in his cells). But if Joe were to insist that George was made by X chromosomes ONLY then Joe is obviously wrong. because he has both X and Y chromosomes and NOT X alone. So when FREE you keep quoting verses which speak of Faith in Christ is needed for salvation ---- I absolutely agree. That's the truth. the problem is there is LIKE the Y chromosome in my illustration, OBEDIENCE is also needed because Christ Himself cautions and explains us in a number of verses which I and many here, like Wondering Peter jens JLB and others have often quoted. NT is full of it ( paramount importance of Deeds/ obedience). that obedience does NOT come from Christ but from our FREE WILL--- our willingness to obey Him. Consider the great commission of the Lord ( Matthew 28:18-20) OR his caveat of Abiding in Him John 15: 5-6
"I am the vine; you are the branches. If you remain in me and I in you, you will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing.
If you do not remain in me, you are like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned."
I believe Jesus is saying in a crystal clear manner here that inobedient believers will be judged ... and more
Again Christ says in Matthew 5:13 ►
"You are the salt of the earth. But if the salt loses its saltiness, how can it be made salty again? It is no longer good for anything, except to be thrown out and trampled underfoot."
As i previously mentioned if faith alone could save then demons would also be saved, for they did believe in Christ as the begotten son of God( Mark 1: 24). But they didn't obey the Lord. They chose to do evil despite knowing Christ's deity. I believe either PeterJens or JLB mentioned Judas being a believer too. Definitely, he was a "believer" But he fell to wicked ways. Did his faith in Christ save him? I would think not, because his works were otherwise
We can, of course, argue he never had faith in the first place. That's the point I am also making. For those who claim to be in Christ, must accept him as Supreme Lord too and therefore OBEY.
Interesting excerpt from Capitol Ministries which makes a similar point on " easy believism" doctrine
I produce it hereunder for readers reference and perusal ( words in green)
https://capmin.org/will-jesus-say-to-you-i-never-knew-you/

In Matthew 7:21-23 He says:
“Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter. Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?’ And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me you who practice lawlessness.’”

A popular, faulty theology of “salvation” is called “easy believism.” At its core, there is a “belief ” in Jesus void of consideration for the biblical definition of who He is. Followers thus “receive” Jesus according to their understanding of whom they think Jesus is — in contrast to what the Bible reveals. In Romans 10:9-10 Scripture states:

That if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.

Believe in your heart (pisteuo kardia) is the Greek idea of volitional commitment — something Jesus says that was not present in those He was speaking about in Matthew 7 (above). The Lord, Lord, quote therein refers to the tragic faultiness of intellectual assent only, versus the believe in your heart volitional commitment that is indicative of authentic salvation. These passages more than suggest that to be truly saved one must not only give intellectual agreement, but volitionally submit to the fact that Jesus is Lord, (kurios) which means “sovereign,” “master,” or “boss.” Kurios is used as a descriptor of Jesus 747 times in the NT! Biblically informed belief in Jesus then, requires one to turn from all other understanding(s) as to who he thinks Jesus is and bow the knee to His Lordship. This is known as repentance. In contrast, self-informed thinking of Jesus — thinking of Him in another way, or lesser way, will not get us there (cf. 2Cor. 11:4)!
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My friends, I believe Jesus expects both FAITH and OBEDIENCE from His followers. We cannot merely accept Him as Savior and not as the Lord. That's going to be counter-productive. Its time from "believers" we progressed to becoming TRUE followers by keeping the Lord's commands and bearing fruit for the kingdom. Lip service, in my opinion, will not be enough to save anyone. Yes we will stumble in the walk, but the HS will help us pick up our cross and follow the Lord.... until a day will come when its all over
Lord God I pray for your mercy on ALL those who are good willed and I pray for wisdom for all who are ignorant ( which includes me) and change of heart for those who have chosen to follow the wicked, so that they may come to the knowledge of truth for Lord you want all people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth ( 1 Tim 2: 3-4) .
I end my post with these words of the Lord God
Exodus 33:19 ----"I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion".
God bless everyone

Great point about the chromosomes.

 

[ezra]

Ezra,
I agree that we should not depend on the passages regarding this "sealing" people want to talk about. It's much more complicated than just accepting the concept of a sealing...as you have correctly pointed out.

I think what happens is that we get so caught up in our belief system that we then close our mind to everything else. I read carefully before I answer someone and look into their belief. I have to be to disprove it to myself in order to continue. I know that I could be wrong too.

I've studied up on this concept of sealing and even spoke about it to a priest friend of mine and he agrees. We are sealed, indeed, for as long as we want to be.

God will not force us into heaven kicking and screaming.
We have to WANT to go there.
And this is the overall correct belief.

I like your open-mindedness.

THERE IS NOBODY that knows exactly how it works i do believe in free will . i also lean semi heavy toward eternal security . but i draw the line in living how one wants and still go to heaven. your pretty easy to discuss issues with .. it seems it either has to be all out one way or the other, what i mean by that is.. you either believe my way or hit the highway... in this post we have took justification and sanctification twisted tied turned all around.. some added to it some took away from it..

God will not force us into heaven kicking and screaming.
We have to WANT to go there.
And this is the overall correct belief.

agreed i am willing to listen to anyone view point.. just have scripture to back it up..

 

[JLB]

The words "no such thing as being sealed with the Holy Spirit" were said, and to claim that, is false.

I think you have me mixed up with someone else.

I agree with what the scriptures say.

In fact here is what I said, in the post you quoted.

The Holy Spirit is the seal of authenticity in those who believe.

JLB

 

[Rajesh Sahu]

Great point about the chromosomes.

Thank you . Much like you dear Wondering , unless the HS convicts me , I do not comment. Many years back in my life , I stopped trying to win an argument. What do I gain by winning? True joy and satisfaction comes from adhering to the TRUTH. Indeed the message has been changed by many Churches to make it easier for the " believers". The difficult part of the salvation doctrine ----Obedience --- was conveniently removed by such teachers and pastors. What bothered me most was they also started issuing Salvation guarantees to their congregations.
I was guilty of believing them for years and years. How could they be wrong when everyone believes the same interpretation --- you are saved by faith alone, I used to einder.
However I was struck with insomnia about 10 months back and I could get sleep only early hours of morning , thankfully all the way to afternoon. Resulting in me not being able to attend my Bible based church. As you know the good Lord always uses something bad and converts it into something great. I started using up my night times to study Bible more deeply and since I was not attending the Church, I, for the first time in 13 years started examining the Bible NEUTRALLY. And not as the Church was teaching or their interpretation and conclusions . It was then with a shock I realized the message in the Bible was Not being taught correctly. The OBEDIENCE part had been quietly deleted.
I suddenly found this teaching to be heresy as it was not consistent with the truths of the Word, again in my opinion. After that I intensified my quest for truth , which also led me to this wonderful forum, where I found there were others like me who were questioning this " saved by faith alone" doctrine and that salvation can never be lost. . I believe the Bible clearly teaches otherwise I learn and share everyday
I learned many big names like JOHN MCARTHUR have also started including obedience in their teaching of salvation doctrine. MCARTHUR is convinced we can lose our salvation ( after accepting Christ as Savior) if we do not keep the Lord's commands and willfully disobey. He liberally quotes Matthew 7: 18-24.
Taking obedience out of salvation doctrine to me is like taking Soul out of a human being . What is left then ?