Was Jesus a pacifist?

[godsquadgeek]

I believe what Scripture tells us. And I suspect you know that Jesus tells us that the swords are to be gotten to fulfill a prophecy that Jesus be seen as a transgressor. I suppose you could see Jesus's act as "deceptive".

But the text says what it says.

And remember, it is pretty clear that the entire crucifixion event was designed to "trick" Satan. Was this deceptive? You bet.

So since you are not defending your position that Jesus was being deceptive, I guess I am winning the debate. Thanks again for debating. See you next time.

 

[Jim Parker]

it is pretty clear that the entire crucifixion event was designed to "trick" Satan. Was this deceptive? You bet.

Jesus was crucified so that it would be perfectly clear that He did not die of natural causes, old age, or disease. All of those causes are the consequence of the fall. He had to be seen to have been , essentially, murdered as an innocent man.
Jesus did not come to trick the devil. He came to be killed and rise from death to new, indestructible life thereby destroying the power of death.
And since he told His disciple many times that it was His intention to allow Himself to be unjustly killed and then to rise again on the third day, it is inconceivable that the devil did not know what Jesus was planning.

 

[godsquadgeek]

I believe what Scripture tells us. And I suspect you know that Jesus tells us that the swords are to be gotten to fulfill a prophecy that Jesus be seen as a transgressor. I suppose you could see Jesus's act as "deceptive".

But the text says what it says.

And remember, it is pretty clear that the entire crucifixion event was designed to "trick" Satan. Was this deceptive? You bet.

satan knew more about the crucifixion than any other human, and we understood quite a bit. no deception there.

 

[Drew]

So since you are not defending your position that Jesus was being deceptive, I guess I am winning the debate. Thanks again for debating. See you next time.

Huh?

This should not be about "winning", but about getting at the truth.

And my Bible - and yours too - clearly state that the order to get the swords was given to fulfill a prophecy that Jesus be seen as a transgressor.

You cannot deny this - it is as plain as the nose on our faces!

Please explain to us why you do not take Jesus at His word?

Why do you take this:

But now, whoever has a money belt is to take it along, likewise also a bag, and whoever has no sword is to sell his coat and buy one. 37“For I tell you that this which is written must be fulfilled in Me, ‘AND HE WAS NUMBERED WITH TRANSGRESSORS’; for that which refers to Me has its fulfillment.”

and effectively do this to the text:

But now, whoever has a money belt is to take it along, likewise also a bag, and whoever has no sword is to sell his coat and buy one. 37“For I tell you that this which is written must be fulfilled in Me, ‘AND HE WAS NUMBERED WITH TRANSGRESSORS’; for that which refers to Me has its fulfillment.” you need to defend yourselves.

Well?

Remember, Jesus did all sorts of other things that one could see as "sinful". I don't know about you, but if someone comes into a public building and starts flipping over tables and acting in a threatening manner, that would clearly be seen as sinful. And yet, we have this:

And He made a scourge of cords, and drove them all out of the temple, with the sheep and the oxen; and He poured out the coins of the money changers and overturned their tables;

You need to face facts: Jesus tells us that the swords are to be acquired for a very specific reason: to make Jesus appear to be a transgressor.

 

[Drew]

satan knew more about the crucifixion than any other human, and we understood quite a bit. no deception there.

The argument is too long to get into right now, but the narrative structure of the Old and New Testaments paints a compelling picture that, at the Cross, Satan was essentially "lured" into a situation in which he was vulnerable and dealt a telling defeat.

 

[Free]

satan knew more about the crucifixion than any other human, and we understood quite a bit. no deception there.

A curious statement. How does this address: "it is pretty clear that the entire crucifixion event was designed to "trick" Satan"?

Does knowing more about something than someone else mean that one cannot be deceived?

 

[godsquadgeek]

Huh?

This should not be about "winning", but about getting at the truth.

And my Bible - and yours too - clearly state that the order to get the swords was given to fulfill a prophecy that Jesus be seen as a transgressor.

You cannot deny this - it is as plain as the nose on our faces!

Please explain to us why you do not take Jesus at His word?

Why do you take this:

But now, whoever has a money belt is to take it along, likewise also a bag, and whoever has no sword is to sell his coat and buy one. 37“For I tell you that this which is written must be fulfilled in Me, ‘AND HE WAS NUMBERED WITH TRANSGRESSORS’; for that which refers to Me has its fulfillment.”

and effectively do this to the text:

But now, whoever has a money belt is to take it along, likewise also a bag, and whoever has no sword is to sell his coat and buy one. 37“For I tell you that this which is written must be fulfilled in Me, ‘AND HE WAS NUMBERED WITH TRANSGRESSORS’; for that which refers to Me has its fulfillment.” you need to defend yourselves.

Well?

Remember, Jesus did all sorts of other things that one could see as "sinful". I don't know about you, but if someone comes into a public building and starts flipping over tables and acting in a threatening manner, that would clearly be seen as sinful. And yet, we have this:

And He made a scourge of cords, and drove them all out of the temple, with the sheep and the oxen; and He poured out the coins of the money changers and overturned their tables;

You need to face facts: Jesus tells us that the swords are to be acquired for a very specific reason: to make Jesus appear to be a transgressor.

I can deny that.
Jesus would be numbered with the transgressors because he broke jewish law, healed on the sabbath, and declared Himself God in the flesh, commanding his disciples to buy a mere few swords would not be enough of a sin to fulfill Isaiah 53:12 the "He was numbered with the transgressors". Jesus himself did not need a sword, only his followers after he left would need them for self defense. If Jesus himself did not need the swords, why would he be numbered with a transgressors?

12 rTherefore I will divide Him a portion with the great,
sAnd He shall divide the 1spoil with the strong,
Because He tpoured out His soul unto death,
And He was unumbered with the transgressors,
And He bore the sin of many,
And vmade intercession for the transgressors.

The New King James Version. (1982). (Is 53:12). Nashville: Thomas Nelson.

Jesus is indicating a future fulfillment of a future prophecy, not an immediate fulfillment. For he will be crucified between two thieves. in fact I have scholars that back me in this interpretation.

"(v. 37): “Now that which is written must be fulfilled in me, and this among the rest, He was numbered among the transgressors—he must suffer and die as a malefactor, and in company with some of the vilest of malefactors. This is that which is yet to be accomplished, after all the rest, and then the things concerning me, the things written concerning me, will have an end; then I shall say, It is finished.”
Henry, M. (1994). Matthew Henry’s commentary on the whole Bible: complete and unabridged in one volume (p. 1903). Peabody: Hendrickson.

"22:37 And he was counted with the criminals Jesus quotes Isa 53:12 as a reference to His imminent crucifixion alongside two criminals (Luke 23:32)."
Barry, J. D., Mangum, D., Brown, D. R., Heiser, M. S., Custis, M., Ritzema, E., … Bomar, D. (2012, 2016). Faithlife Study Bible (Lk 22:37). Bellingham, WA: Lexham Press.

Luke 22:36:
"Buy a sword (ἀγορασατω μαχαιραν [agorasatō machairan]). This is for defence clearly. The reference is to the special mission in Galilee (Luke 9:1–6=Mark 6:6–13=Matt. 9:35–11:1). They are to expect persecution and bitter hostility (John 15:18–21). Jesus does not mean that his disciples are to repel force by force, but that they are to be ready to defend his cause against attack. Changed conditions bring changed needs. This language can be misunderstood as it was then.

Luke 22:38:
Lord, behold, here are two swords (κυριε ἰδου μαχαιραι ὡδε δυο [kurie idou machairai hōde duo]). They took his words literally. And before this very night is over Peter will use one of these very swords to try to cut off the head of Malchus only to be sternly rebuked by Jesus (Mark 14:47=Matt. 26:51f.=Luke 22:50f.=John 18:10f.). Then Jesus will say: “For all that take the sword shall perish with the sword” (Matt. 26:52). Clearly Jesus did not mean his language even about the sword to be pressed too literally. So he said: “It is enough” (ἱκανον ἐστιν [Hikanon estin]). It is with sad irony and sorrow that Jesus thus dismisses the subject. They were in no humour now to understand the various sides of this complicated problem. Every preacher and teacher understands this mood, not of impatience, but of closing the subject for the present."
Robertson, A. T. (1933). Word Pictures in the New Testament (Lk 22:36–38). Nashville, TN: Broadman Press.

 

[Drew]

I can deny that.
Jesus would be numbered with the transgressors because he broke jewish law, healed on the sabbath, and declared Himself God in the flesh, commanding his disciples to buy a mere few swords would not be enough of a sin to fulfill Isaiah 53:12 the "He was numbered with the transgressors".

You deny the words the very words of Jesus:

But now, whoever has a money belt is to take it along, likewise also a bag, and whoever has no sword is to sell his coat and buy one. 37“For I tell you that this which is written must be fulfilled in Me, ‘AND HE WAS NUMBERED WITH TRANSGRESSORS’; for that which refers to Me has its fulfillment.”

Surely you can understand that just because there are other ways for Jesus to be numbered among transgressors, this does not prevent Jesus from using the swords as another means.

Can you not see how you are essentially telling that Jesus was mistaken?

How more clear could He have been - the swords are procured to fulfill the prophecy about being seen as a transgressor.

Again, you deny the clear words of Jesus.

 

[godsquadgeek]

You deny the words the very words of Jesus:

But now, whoever has a money belt is to take it along, likewise also a bag, and whoever has no sword is to sell his coat and buy one. 37“For I tell you that this which is written must be fulfilled in Me, ‘AND HE WAS NUMBERED WITH TRANSGRESSORS’; for that which refers to Me has its fulfillment.”

Surely you can understand that just because there are other ways for Jesus to be numbered among transgressors, this does not prevent Jesus from using the swords as another means.

Can you not see how you are essentially telling that Jesus was mistaken?

How more clear could He have been - the swords are procured to fulfill the prophecy about being seen as a transgressor.

Again, you deny the clear words of Jesus.

you basically are telling me that Jesus is to be counted among the transgressors for something someone else was doing wrong, his disciples were actually buying the swords, thats dishonesty at it worst. Jesus didn't need a sword, so why should he be to blame here? If you tell your buddy to buy a firearm on the black market, are you to be convicted in the court of law, or is the person who bought the unregistered firearm to be convicted? I await your response.

 

[Drew]

Jesus did not come to trick the devil. He came to be killed and rise from death to new, indestructible life thereby destroying the power of death.

These two ideas are decidedly not incompatible.

Respected theologian NT Wright argues that part of what was accomplished at the cross was to "lure" Satan to attack Jesus on the Cross. And in the process, Satan is dealt a major defeat. Here is just one Biblical text in defence of this position:

No, we declare God's wisdom, a mystery that has been hidden and that God destined for our glory before time began. None of the rulers of this age understood it, for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.

Paul's point - the rulers of this age did not realize that in putting Jesus to death, they were making a major mistake that would undermine their power.

And Biblically, what dark power is really at work behind the evil that men do?

Satan.

And since he told His disciple many times that it was His intention to allow Himself to be unjustly killed and then to rise again on the third day, it is inconceivable that the devil did not know what Jesus was planning.

I never claimed that Satan did not know that Jesus would die - I claimed that he did not know what the implications would be for him (Satan).

 

[Drew]

well I posted sources that support my viewpoint of the interpretation of that passage, and call me not suprised that you either can't, or won't, find sources that back up your claims.

It's no surprise that many people share your view. But you have not shown how your view does not involve editing the text!

It is so clear it cannot be denied, even if you and others deny it - many people have a powerful motive to interpret Jesus as endorsing self-defence.

But Let me put it this way. What words come out of Jesus's mouth immediately after these words:

But now, whoever has a money belt is to take it along, likewise also a bag, and whoever has no sword is to sell his coat and buy one.

 

[Drew]

you basically are telling me that Jesus is to be counted among the transgressors for something someone else was doing wrong, his disciples were actually buying the swords, thats dishonesty at it worst.

Well, you will have to take that up with Jesus. As I have already shown, there is clear precedent for Jesus doing things that any reasonable person would, on a superficial analysis, see as sinful (e.g. the action in the temple).

Jesus didn't need a sword, so why should he be to blame here? If you tell your buddy to buy a firearm on the black market, are you to be convicted in the court of law, or is the person who bought the unregistered firearm to be convicted? I await your response.

I think I have explained this. Jesus is known to be the leader of a threatening movement widely seen to threaten the peace. And He has followers. So if those followers get swords, this would certainly cause many people to say to themselves "that Jesus fellow surrounds Himself by armed followers - he must be a bad guy".

Not only does Jesus clearly tell us that the swords fulfill a prophecy that He would be seen as a transgressor, it makes perfect sense - if someone has armed followers, that person will be seen as a threat to law and order.

That is, a transgressor.

 

[godsquadgeek]

It's no surprise that many people share your view. But you have not shown how your view does not involve editing the text!

It is so clear it cannot be denied, even if you and others deny it - many people have a powerful motive to interpret Jesus as endorsing self-defence.

But Let me put it this way. What words come out of Jesus's mouth immediately after these words:

But now, whoever has a money belt is to take it along, likewise also a bag, and whoever has no sword is to sell his coat and buy one.

your view incorporates Jesus deceiving others for the sake of a lie. To be counted among the transgressors was a lie, for him to deceive others for a lie, is even worse.

 

[godsquadgeek]

Well, you will have to take that up with Jesus. As I have already shown, there is clear precedent for Jesus doing things that any reasonable person would, on a superficial analysis, see as sinful (e.g. the action in the temple).


I think I have explained this. Jesus is known to be the leader of a threatening movement widely seen to threaten the peace. And He has followers. So if those followers get swords, this would certainly cause many people to say to themselves "that Jesus fellow surrounds Himself by armed followers - he must be a bad guy".

Not only does Jesus clearly tell us that the swords fulfill a prophecy that He would be seen as a transgressor, it makes perfect sense - if someone has armed followers, that person will be seen as a threat to law and order.

That is, a transgressor.

Since Jesus is not here, I guess I will talk to you, but it seems you are at the end of your rope. Jesus was not at fault, Jesus never bore the sword. Peter did, in a wrongful way. But I am sorry if I don't interpret your view point as the most accurate to all the text of the bible. I refuse to believe Jesus would purposefully deceive others for the sake of a lie. Jesus used parables to withhold truth, yes. But that is not the same as deceiving for a lie.

 

[Jim Parker]

No, we declare God's wisdom, a mystery that has been hidden and that God destined for our glory before time began. None of the rulers of this age understood it, for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.

Paul's point - the rulers of this age did not realize that in putting Jesus to death, they were making a major mistake that would undermine their power.

You got me there.
I just didn't think that the devil would miss Jesus saying he would be killed and the rise again the third day.
I guess he didn't connect the dots; he missed the "therefore."
God became man - the God-man is killed - the God-man rises from death to life - THEREFORE, all of mankind will rise from the dead and death's power is made of no consequence.

OK.

 

[godsquadgeek]

even Jesus himself tells his disciples to sell their coats and buy a short sword, for self defense. Luke 22:36

democrat governor brown does not believe in the Bible apparently:

http://www.breitbart.com/california...ill-ensure-teachers-cant-shoot-back-attacked/

 

[chessman]

Jesus is known to be the leader of a threatening movement widely seen to threaten the peace. And He has followers. So if those followers get swords, this would certainly cause many people to say to themselves "that Jesus fellow surrounds Himself by armed followers - he must be a bad guy".

Correct.

If your city, state or nation passed a law declaring that preaching the Gospel is so offensive as to be illegal, would you transgress this law?

If you were God in flesh, and it were illegal in your nation to claim to be God, would you transgress this law?

the rulers of this age did not realize that in putting Jesus to death, they were making a major mistake that would undermine their power.

Correct. Their recovery plan after His death and resurrection was thwarted too. One Sanhedrin member at least knew how to determine whether they were mistaken in putting Him to death or not. As if His resurrection weren’t enough proof.

And having brought them, they stood them in the council [chamber]. And the high priest questioned them, saying, “Did we not command you with a command not to be teaching on the basis of this name? And behold— you have filled Jerusalem with your teaching. And you intend to bring the blood of this man upon us”. But having stood up, a certain Pharisee in the Sanhedrin— Gamaliel by name, a Law-teacher honored by all the people— gave-orders to make the men be outside for a little while. And he said to them, “Men, Israelites, take heed to yourselves as to what you are about to do to these men. And as to the things now, I say to you, draw-away from these men and leave them alone. Because if this plan or this work should be from humans, it will be overthrown; but if it is from God, you will not be able to overthrow them— that you indeed may not perhaps be found to be fighting-against-God”. And they were persuaded by him. And having summoned the apostles, having beaten them, they commanded them not to be speaking on the basis of the name of Jesus, and released them.​

Acts 5:27-28,34-35,38-40 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Acts 5:27-28,34-35,38-40&version=DLNT

 

[Drew]

your view incorporates Jesus deceiving others for the sake of a lie. To be counted among the transgressors was a lie, for him to deceive others for a lie, is even worse.

I am not going to debate what constitutes a "lie".

What is beyond debate - precisely because the words are so clear - is that Jesus is setting things this up so He will be seen as a transgressor. You can make all the arguments you like, but they do not change what Jesus actually said.

 

[Drew]

even Jesus himself tells his disciples to sell their coats and buy a short sword, for self defense. Luke 22:36

1. Where is there any reference to self-defense?

2. You conveniently ignore verse 37. Simple verse lookup exercise for you: please write out verse 37.

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

Jesus is God .... if any one thinks God is a pacifist they must not have read the Bible

Deu_1:37 Also the LORD was angry with me for your sakes, saying, Thou also shalt not go in thither.
Exo_34:14 For thou shalt worship no other god: for the LORD, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God:
Exo_12:12 For I will pass through the land of Egypt this night, and will smite all the firstborn in the land of Egypt, both man and beast; and against all the gods of Egypt I will execute judgment: I am the LORD.
Rev_19:15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

We are New Testament Christians, we should listen to what Jesus and the other writers of the New Testament teach us.
Did not those Christians walk into the arena with those lions without putting up a fight first?
Trust in Jesus, not man made weapons.