Was Jesus a pacifist?

[Rollo Tamasi]

I think there were two issues here.
The first is the personal walk with integrity and righteousness.
The second is dealing with injustice and corruption in ones society.

Jesus did not call His disciples to rise up and overthrow the Jewish authorities, rather just to witness
and love the people they met. This is our example.
Prophets of old condemned sinful behaviour in their society and warned of Gods judgement against
it. So in the biblical situation, it is hard to justify what happened in the reformation.

25% of the population died, and horrific acts were done by both sides.
I would suggest little of this had to do with faith, and a lot to which power group you were loyal to.
There were a number of true nutcases involved who thought God would support their revolution,
and died when the real army turned up.

We've always heard about the Muslims and Christians fighting each other in Lebanon.
What came of all that?
Nothing but death and hatred.
It's not the way to do things.

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

Really ,how many gun attacks have you disarmed 100 ft or more away?

How many knife attacks have you.disarmed? HoW many fights have you fought against multiple attackers with or without attackers?

How many guns have you had pointed at you at point blank range and disarmed the weapon .

All without leaving scratch. Harm is harm. I hate violence and own no gun.monica does as she and had jaci dad draw a weapon at at point blank range.

So please pony up on how you do it.

That's a job for the worldly government , not for a Christian following Jesus.

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

Where, in this long tale, is an explanation as to why the swords fulfilled the prophecy that Jesus be numbered among transgressors?

Nowhere.

This oversight is fatal to the argument. Jesus clearly means to tell us that he wanted his followers to appear to be a band of armed hooligans thus, of course, fulfilling the prophecy!

Any explanation for Luke 22 must deal with the "numbered with transgressors" prophecy to be remotely taken seriously.

Isaiah 53

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

sorry to say but numbered with transgressors can be filled a million ways, none of which involve armed conflict. Numbered with the transgressors, if I look at my commentaries and pastor resources most likely relates to the fact he was crucified between thieves.

Why?

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

True. There are plenty of scriptures supporting our right to self defense. We are saved eternally but God doesn't say we're to be careless and hurry to meet him at the hands of the homicidal.
As to the wrathful part, there are also many scriptures that report of God's wrath. Jesus was mad when he confronted the leaders in the temple and called them vipers and of Satan. He wasn't full of joy when he chased after the money changers with a whip that would not have been necessary had he not thought it so and fashioned it himself.
The same Jesus that later talked as you mention about buying a sword. And who's own Disciple had a sword on his person when Jesus was arrested.
With the full knowledge of the all knowing God whom he served.

The argument that Jesus was a pacifist is, by scripture itself, indefensible.

Very weak.
You need to do better than this.

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

the early church made lots of doctrinal errors. Including end times doctrinal errors. So they should not be our example. In colonial america there was only a portion of the church that supported pacifism. The portion that did support pacifism had a higher tax rate because of their lack of service in the military. I believe that should be the case for all pacifists today, they should have a higher tax rate due to their not signing of the selective service. and for honesty sake they should not sign selective service if they are pacifists for that is lying so you don't pay. which is on par with lying on your taxes and such. In fact not signing a selective service is a felony. So most likely if you were a pacifist in high school you lied about your pacifism to save your behind. But you believe Jesus purposefully deceived people into thinking they were numbered with the transgressors. So white lies may be par for the course in your theology.

The early church in colonial America also had witch trials.

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

satan knew more about the crucifixion than any other human, and we understood quite a bit. no deception there.

Scripture please.
This statement reaps of falsehood.

 

[Jim Parker]

With reference to the original question, "Was Jesus a pacifist?" I suggest the following be considered.

Jos 5:13-15 And it came to pass, when Joshua was by Jericho, that he lifted his eyes and looked, and behold, a Man stood opposite him with His sword drawn in His hand. And Joshua went to Him and said to Him, “Are You for us or for our adversaries? So He said, “No, but as Commander of the army of the LORD I have now come.” And Joshua fell on his face to the earth and worshiped, and said to Him, “What does my Lord say to His servant?” Then the Commander of the LORD’s army said to Joshua, “Take your sandal off your foot, for the place where you stand is holy.” And Joshua did so.

This event is generally considered to be an appearance of the preincarnate Jesus. Some propose that it is Michael the archangel but there are two reasons to reject that view.
(1) Joshua worships him. Note that when John worshiped the angel at Rev.19:10, the angel immediately rebuked John and told him "Worship God!" When Joshua worships, the preincarnate Christ does not stop him.
(2) Joshua is told, “Take your sandal off your foot, for the place where you stand is holy.” These are the same words that were spoken to Moses when he approached God at the burning bush. (Ex 3:5) That which makes the place holy is the presence of God.
So, here we see the preincarnate Jesus as the commander of the armies of the Lord about to go before Joshua with the heavenly armies to wage a war of annihilation against the Canaanites.
That is hardly "pacifist."

We also see Gideon called by God (and Jesus is God) to make war on and defeat the Midianites and Amalekites. (Judges 6)

At the other end of the Bible we find Jesus again at the head of the armies of heaven.
Rev 19:11-13 Now I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse. And He who sat on him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He judges and makes war. His eyes were like a flame of fire, and on His head were many crowns. He had a name written that no one knew except Himself. He was clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God.

It seems to me that these revelations of Jesus make it impossible to consider Him to be a pacifist.


iakov the fool

 

[Jim Parker]

the early church made lots of doctrinal errors. Including end times doctrinal errors. So they should not be our example.

WHOA!!!
The early church ADDRESSED and REFUTED doctrinal errors.
The early church refuted the error that Christ was a creature (like the JWs today), that His will was replaced by the divine will, that He only seemed to have suffered, that He was not born as God-in-flesh but as the Christ, and other heresies.
The early church refuted the teaching that the Holy Spirit was less than God, that He is not a person but simply the power of God. (as the JWs teach today) By refuting these errors, the early church established the doctrine of the trinity.
They refuted the end time doctrinal error of a literal 1000 year reign at the second ecumenical counsel.

So, exactly what doctrinal errors did the early church teach as a necessary doctrine of Christianity?

 

[Jim Parker]

We've always heard about the Muslims and Christians fighting each other in Lebanon.
What came of all that?
Nothing but death and hatred.
It's not the way to do things.

When the entire world is converted and everyone submits to God's will, then wars will end.
Until then, they will continue as will every other evil on the face of the earth.
And, meanwhile, it does no good whatsoever to be a pacifist when you have enemies who are quite happy to murder you, your family, and everyone in your country.
Until those people are converted, I suggest you keep a gun and a lot of ammunition.

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

When the entire world is converted and everyone submits to God's will, then wars will end.
Until then, they will continue as will every other evil on the face of the earth.
And, meanwhile, it does no good whatsoever to be a pacifist when you have enemies who are quite happy to murder you, your family, and everyone in your country.
Until those people are converted, I suggest you keep a gun and a lot of ammunition.

That's called "living in fear".
Where is your trust that Jesus will protect you?
If you don't have that faith, then maybe you do need a gun.

 

[Jim Parker]

That's called "living in fear".
Where is your trust that Jesus will protect you?
If you don't have that faith, then maybe you do need a gun.

That's called "Reality."
There really are people like Adolf Hitler.
There really are drug gangs like MS13.
There really are evil people in the world.
Did Jesus protect Christians from being murdered by Muslims in Syria, Iraq, the Sudan, North Africa during the past 10 years?
It has absolutely nothing to do with faith or lack of faith.
It has to do with being willing to protect the blessings which God has given you.

It's not about faith.
It's about the reality of evil and murderously violent people in the world and the necessity of protecting yourself, your wife, your children, your friends and neighbors and, if necessary, your entire country from those who are ready, willing and able to murder every last one of us.

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

That's called "Reality."
There really are people like Adolf Hitler.
There really are drug gangs like MS13.
There really are evil people in the world.
Did Jesus protect Christians from being murdered by Muslims in Syria, Iraq, the Sudan, North Africa during the past 10 years?
It has absolutely nothing to do with faith or lack of faith.
It has to do with being willing to protect the blessings which God has given you.

It's not about faith.
It's about the reality of evil and murderously violent people in the world and the necessity of protecting yourself, your wife, your children, your friends and neighbors and, if necessary, your entire country from those who are ready, willing and able to murder every last one of us.

That for the worldly government and military to deal with, not the Christian.
I suppose you have never needed to call out to Jesus to save you.
Maybe if you did, you'd understand better.

 

[Jim Parker]

That for the worldly government and military to deal with, not the Christian.

So when a gang of thugs kick down your door and begin to rape and murder your family, it's not for a Christian to resist with sufficient force to stop them?
You are exactly the kind of person thugs, thieves, rapists, an murderers pick as victims.

I suppose you have never needed to call out to Jesus to save you.

You may suppose whatever fantasy amuses you.
But the real world is NOT Sesame Street or Mister Rogers Neighborhood.

 

[Free]

When the entire world is converted and everyone submits to God's will, then wars will end.
Until then, they will continue as will every other evil on the face of the earth.
And, meanwhile, it does no good whatsoever to be a pacifist when you have enemies who are quite happy to murder you, your family, and everyone in your country.
Until those people are converted, I suggest you keep a gun and a lot of ammunition.

Please post just one verse that supports Christians using violence in the face of persecution.

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

So when a gang of thugs kick down your door and begin to rape and murder your family, it's not for a Christian to resist with sufficient force to stop them?
You are exactly the kind of person thugs, thieves, rapists, an murderers pick as victims.

You may suppose whatever fantasy amuses you.
But the real world is NOT Sesame Street or Mister Rogers Neighborhood.

The real world is a close relationship with Jesus and loving others as yourself.

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

So when a gang of thugs kick down your door and begin to rape and murder your family, it's not for a Christian to resist with sufficient force to stop them?
You are exactly the kind of person thugs, thieves, rapists, an murderers pick as victims.

You may suppose whatever fantasy amuses you.
But the real world is NOT Sesame Street or Mister Rogers Neighborhood.

I'm 67 years old.
No one has ever attacked my wife or I.
We are protected by the blood of Jesus.
"nothing but the blood of Jesus".....

 

[Jim Parker]

Please post just one verse that supports Christians using violence in the face of persecution.

Did I say that Christians should use violence in the face of persecution?
No, I did not.
But I do so now. I do not see Christianity as teaching that I must allow myself, my family, my neighbors to be raped and murdered by ISIS worshipers of Satan if I have the ability to resist them even with deadly force.

And I advocate the use of appropriate force to stop criminal violence. The failure to respond to criminal violence encourages more violence. The perfect example of avoiding the use of force is Nevil Chamberlain's signed pledge of peace from Mr. Hitler that was soon followed by the worst war in the history of mankind.

It is also a fact of history that, if France and England had resisted Hitler's occupation of the Saarland, he would have been a political has-been and WW2 in Europe would not have begun. He was very much aware that his forces were not capable of withstanding an armed French response and that, had it happened, he would have had to withdraw. But he was encouraged by the inaction of England and France who clearly had superior forces at that time.

But the question is, "Was Jesus a pacifist?".
Whether or not we should resist persecution is a different question.

 

[Jim Parker]

The real world is a close relationship with Jesus and loving others as yourself.

If I love others as myself would I permit them to be raped and murdered by criminals if I could do something to stop them?
Would You?
Should we disband the military and police because they use violence against violent criminals?

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

Lead the charge Jim, you got the motorcycle
You also have all the rapists and murders in your neighborhood
None of that stuff around here