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easy believism

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Does this Scripture teach you that the disciples did not understand how to be saved at the time of Matt 19 (when Judas was still being discipled)?

And having heard it, the disciples were extremely astounded, saying, “Who then can be saved?” And having looked at them, Jesus said to them, “With humans, this is impossible. But with God, all things are possible”.Matthew 19:25-26 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Matthew 19:25-26&version=DLNT


The disciples misunderstood many things Jesus said.


That's why Jesus clarified for them, who would inherit eternal life.

  • everyone who has left houses or brothers or sisters or father or mother or wife[k] or children or lands, for My name’s sake, shall receive a hundredfold, and inherit eternal life.


23 Then Jesus said to His disciples, “Assuredly, I say to you that it is hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven. 24 And again I say to you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God.”25 When His disciples heard it, they were greatly astonished, saying, “Who then can be saved?”
26 But Jesus looked at them and said to them, “With men this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.”
27 Then Peter answered and said to Him, “See, we have left all and followed You. Therefore what shall we have?”
28 So Jesus said to them, “Assuredly I say to you, that in the regeneration, when the Son of Man sits on the throne of His glory, you who have followed Me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. 29 And everyone who has left houses or brothers or sisters or father or mother or wife or children or lands, for My name’s sake, shall receive a hundredfold, and inherit eternal life. Matthew 19:23-29


How long did Judas follow the Lord?


Do you believe a person can believe and become saved, and follow the Lord for a while, then later, turn away from the Lord, and return to serving Satan and still inherit eternal life?




JLB
 
you can never do enough good. .if you had to do lots of good then it would NO LONGER BE GRACE

I agree. And it is 'easy believism' that tosses Grace under the bus and sets up some easy form of subjective 'good' to be saved.

Luke 18~~ 9And He also told this parable to some people who trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and viewed others with contempt: 10“Two men went up into the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. 11“The Pharisee stood and was praying this to himself: ‘God, I thank You that I am not like other people: swindlers, unjust, adulterers, or even like this tax collector. 12‘I fast twice a week; I pay tithes of all that I get.’ 13“But the tax collector, standing some distance away, was even unwilling to lift up his eyes to heaven, but was beating his breast, saying, ‘God, be merciful to me, the sinner!’ 14“I tell you, this man went to his house justified rather than the other; for everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, but he who humbles himself will be exalted.”
 
Yes, John 17 was after the last supper.

Excellent, but why not answer to my other two questions??? (And yes I read your replies that followed this one but you didn’t answer). I’m answering your questions.

1.
Does this Scripture teach you that Peter (one of His disciples) did not understand the reason he was NOT able to follow Jesus right then?

Peter says to Him, “Lord, for what reason am I not able to follow You right-now? I will lay- down my life for You”.John 13:37 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=John 13:37&version=DLNT

2.
Does this Scripture teach you that the disciples did not understand how to be saved at the time of Matt 19 (when Judas was still being discipled)?

And having heard it, the disciples were extremely astounded, saying, “Who then can be saved?” And having looked at them, Jesus said to them, “With humans, this is impossible. But with God, all things are possible”.Matthew 19:25-26 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Matthew 19:25-26&version=DLNT


Was Jesus speaking to the twelve disciples in this statement?


So Jesus said to them, “Assuredly I say to you, that in the regeneration, when the Son of Man sits on the throne of His glory, you who have followed Me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. Matthew 19:28
Yes. Does it teach you when the Son of Man sits on the throne of His glory is in the regeneration (not before)?
 
Excellent, but why not answer to my other two questions??? (And yes I read your replies that followed this one but you didn’t answer). I’m answering your questions.

1.

2.



Yes. Does it teach you when the Son of Man sits on the throne of His glory is in the regeneration (not before)?


Here is my answer, maybe you over looked it.

Please answer the question I asked at the end of my post, before asking me another question.




36 Simon Peter said to Him, “Lord, where are You going?”

Jesus answered him, “Where I am going you cannot follow Me now, but you shall follow Me afterward.”

37 Peter said to Him, “Lord, why can I not follow You now? I will lay down my life for Your sake.”

38 Jesus answered him, “Will you lay down your life for My sake? Most assuredly, I say to you, the rooster shall not crow till you have denied Me three times. John 13:36-38


Yes, the point was None of the disciples were going to follow Jesus were He was going.


Not because they were unwilling, but because they were not the Messiah, the One who takes away the sin of the world.


65 And He said, “Therefore I have said to you that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted to him by My Father.” 66 From that time many of His disciples went back and walked with Him no more. 67 Then Jesus said to the twelve, “Do you also want to go away?”68 But Simon Peter answered Him, “Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life. 69 Also we have come to believe and know that You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.”
John 6:65-69


Was Judas among the twelve when Peter said this -

  • we have come to believe and know that You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.



JLB
 
How long did Judas follow the Lord?
Until he was directed to leave. Just before Jesus started talking to them in a way they could understand His teaching.

Was Judas following Jesus to hear this⬇️

Jesus spoke these things, and having lifted-up His eyes to heaven, said, “Father, the hour has come. Glorify Your Son, so that the Son may glorify You— just as You gave Him authority over all flesh in order that as to all that You have given Him, He may give eternal life to them. And this is eternal life: that they may be knowing You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ Whom You sent-forth.​
John 17:1-3 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=John 17:1-3&version=DLNT


1 question
Do you believe a person can believe and become saved, and follow the Lord for a while,
Yes
Second question
then later, turn away from the Lord, and return to serving Satan
No
 
The whole thread is people saying it is something other than grace.......Seems they are pretty content in that thinking.

It may seem easy ...........But it is NOT.
grace makes it easy we make it hard grace the divine favor of GOD who so ever shall.
Romans 5:20
Moreover the law entered that the offense might abound. But where sin abounded, grace abounded much more, the price was paid at Calvary:amen
 
Until he was directed to leave. Just before Jesus started talking to them in a way they could understand His teaching.

Judas followed Jesus for over 3 years, and betrayed him during the Passover just before the crucifixion.

Today, easy believism teaches a person has received their salvation at the moment they believe, and there is nothing more to do because the have received eternal life and can never perish.


JLB
 
Was Judas following Jesus to hear this⬇️

Jesus spoke these things, and having lifted-up His eyes to heaven, said, “Father, the hour has come. Glorify Your Son, so that the Son may glorify You— just as You gave Him authority over all flesh in order that as to all that You have given Him, He may give eternal life to them. And this is eternal life: that they may be knowing You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ Whom You sent-forth.John 17:1-3 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=John 17:1-3&version=DLNT


1 question

No Judas followed Jesus because He was the Christ, the Son of the living God, and proved he believed by continuing to follow Him, when other disciples turned away from following Him.

67 Then Jesus said to the twelve, “Do you also want to go away?”

68 But Simon Peter answered Him, “Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life. 69 Also we have come to believe and know that You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.” John 6:67-69


JLB
 
68 But Simon Peter answered Him, “Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life
This ⬆️ is precisely my point! This is the situation at this point of Jesus’s ministry, before His teaching to the 11 (Judas wasn’t there to hear the John 17 teaching).

So does it ⬆️ say that any of the 12 had the words of eternal life?

Do you think Peter’s statment here teaches that Judas had eternal life or something?

But back to John 17:

They have now come-to-know that all things that You have given to Me are from You— because I have given them the words which You gave to Me, and they received them, and truly understood that I came forth from You, and believed that You sent Me forth.
John 17:7-8 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=John 17:7-8&version=DLNT

Does this ⬆️ teach you when it was that the 11 (Judas wasn’t there) came to know and “truly understand” and receive the words of eternal life?
 
Who will come to Church if it's told to them 'Christianity is a V
I'm sorry but I do not understand the relevance of your comment to my post. Could you please clarify? Are you telling me that I am quoting Paul's words and that I should not be quoting them? Because that is what it sounds like to me. Maybe I am misunderstanding what you are trying to say. Without explaining how the scriptures you posted in your response relate to the comment I made, them I must tell you that your message is incoherent to me at best. I'm sorry to say that, but perhaps you would be better to explain what you want to say in your own words rather than just post random scripture. I'm not interested in you telling me the words of the book, I already have them for myself. What I want to hear is the word of God as it is written on your heart.

Please do not be offended, but is this really the message of Christ that the Lord has written upon your heart?
Ops , my bad! Sorry. I just quoted scriptures , the words of the Lord Christ Himself, which cannot be negated by anyone IMO.
The objective/ goal/ purpose was to underscore the importance of obeying the Lord and therefore it becomes exceedingly relevant to this thread of Ez believism. If you search the heart of the Lord , it points at OBEDIENCE and not faith alone. Faith without works is dead believed and taught James, the brother of Jesus. That's WHAT the Lord has put in my heart, mind, and soul. To pick up my cross, deny the flesh daily, and follow the master. that's WHAT I get from the message. And because its a very hard walk, easy beleivism proponents relied on random scriptures to establish the heresy That you are saved by faith alone. And therefore I put Christ's scriptures / words which are so full of a definitive call for obedience ( love, righteousness, truth, walking in the spirit and holiness, compassion, forgiveness, nonjudgment, charity etc.)----- a theme which smoothly flows uninterrupted from Genesis to Revelation. In fact in the book of revelation, where Christ is in all His power and glory, is not just asking for obedience, but WARNING about the backlash of sinfulness and non-obedience. He is going to hammer hard those who didnt elect to obey.
Let's reflect on some of his warnings :
Revelation 22:12

"Look, I am coming soon! My reward is with me, and I will give to each person according to what they have done.

the reason I placed the Lord's parable of the ten virgins is that many "believers" will be left out where it's cold and dark and gnashing of the teeth. Matthew 25:1-13, the five virgins who were prepared for the bridegroom's arrival were rewarded, while the five who are not prepared are disowned. The parable has a clear eschatological theme: be prepared for the Day of Judgment.
Again and gain Christ warns in His ministry that he has no place in heaven for in-obedient/ sinful believers.
Here is another example -- Matthew 7: 21 --- where Jesus hands out an unveiled warning to believers who are NOT willing to sacrifice their will for God's SWEET perfect will. Believing is like getting married to Christ . And NOW starts the hard part, the marriage!---- DOING THE WILL OF GOD all our lives till the last breath. Even while we stumble and bumble and the Cross which we are carrying, crashes to the floor, we are supposed to pick it up again and again ( as Jesus did) as WE WALK to OUR Golgotha. yes, there WILL be crucifixion for us too. An emotional crucifixion as we face daily MOMENT BY MOMENT ferocious attacks (and temptations) from the three great enemies we have---- FLESH, WORLD , and the DEVIL [ the F -W-D]. They are like vicious wolves which gnaw at us all day. yet The Lord provided us with the Holy Spirit one who is greater than the one on earth -- the devil. And therefore it becomes imperative to walk in the Spirit. in the book of revelation Jesus is not the gentle Jesus we know. because He is now in raw power with a Double-edged sword proceeding from His mouth. he is in no mood to accept sinful lifestyle in the name of being saved through easy belief in the messiah. WHAT ARE YOUR WORKS! He will thunder when we reach there ( Revelation 2: 26)
It is from this book that I realized that easy believeism doctrine does not exist in the book of Christ. It was made up to make Christianity ( which is a very hard walk) become easy and acceptable to all. Just believe and get saved and now all your past present and future sins are covered! really? Really? What gospel is this? who masterminded this deception by AMPUTATING the second and absolutely VITAL component of the salvation doctrine preached by the Lord Jesus Christ?
( Matthew 28: 18-20)
Then Jesus came to them and said,
“All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.”



James 1: 22 “But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.”


Luke (9:23)And he said before everyone, “Whoever is willing to come after me, let him deny himself, let him take up his cross daily, and let him come after me.”


Matthew 12: 46-50
While Jesus was still talking to the crowd, his mother and brothers stood outside, wanting to speak to him. 47 Someone told him, “Your mother and brothers are standing outside, wanting to speak to you.”

48 He replied to him, “Who is my mother, and who are my brothers?”49 Pointing to his disciples, he said, “Here are my mother and my brothers. 50 For whoever does the will of my Father in heaven is my brother and sister and mother.”
I believe Jesus is abundantly clear here that if we do NOT do the will of God , we have no relations with Jesus, no matter how hard we scream "I believe!"


Dear dear lovely brothers and sisters on Christ out Lord, I, raj, love you all. I mean that. If I share something, I wish to make sure its Biblically sound and supported by verses. With great difficulty and after 13 long years of being a Christian, I realized the clarion call of the Christ was to DO THE WILL OF GOD OVER OUR WILL
( Matthew 7:21)


Ez believism , as the doctrine of salvation, just does not exist. It was cleverly crafted to make Christianity an easy , attractive and enjoyable experience--- much like what Joel Osteen and company teach. Some Churches are guilty of teaching this message, like my erstwhile church did. Also, it gets hoards of people to the Lord. because all they have to do is BELIEVE and their sins forever are forgiven. Thus this man-made doctrine made it very easy to believe and get saved. Easy believers stopped fearing God ( which the beginning of wisdom). Many Ez believers continued a sinful lifestyle since their pastor had ASSURED them that all their sins was covered. [ast present and future. Ez believer also found no need to study Bible and practise love and compassion. Or even share the gospel. their salvation was a foregone conclusion. It was something even God couldn't take away from them! But that is not the message friends. It's a twisted message. And the words of Jesus point in that direction. If it were so easy Jesus wouldn't have been very strong on obedience-- DOING GOD'S WILL ------which Jesus ALWAYS did.





 
That is up to the Judge.

If you confess your sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us and cleanse us of all our unrighteousness.

Keep walking and believing and set your heart and mind to love Him and be led by His Spirit.



JLB
Amen. And Amen !
 
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Who will come to Church if it's told to them 'Christianity is a V

Ops , my bad! Sorry. I just quoted scriptures , the words of the Lord Christ Himself, which cannot be negated by anyone IMO.
The objective/ goal/ purpose was to underscore the importance of obeying the Lord and therefore it becomes exceedingly relevant to this thread of Ez believism. If you search the heart of the Lord , it points at OBEDIENCE and not faith alone. Faith without works is dead believed and taught James, the brother of Jesus. That's WHAT the Lord has put in my heart, mind, and soul. To pick up my cross, deny the flesh daily, and follow the master. that's WHAT I get from the message. And because its a very hard walk, easy beleivism proponents relied on random scriptures to establish the heresy That you are saved by faith alone. And therefore I put Christ's scriptures / words which are so full of a definitive call for obedience ( love, righteousness, truth, walking in the spirit and holiness, compassion, forgiveness, nonjudgment, charity etc.)----- a theme which smoothly flows uninterrupted from Genesis to Revelation. In fact in the book of revelation, where Christ is in all His power and glory, is not just asking for obedience, but WARNING about the backlash of sinfulness and non-obedience. He is going to hammer hard those who didnt elect to obey.
Let's reflect on some of his warnings :
Revelation 22:12

"Look, I am coming soon! My reward is with me, and I will give to each person according to what they have done.

the reason I placed the Lord's parable of the ten virgins is that many "believers" will be left out where it's cold and dark and gnashing of the teeth. Matthew 25:1-13, the five virgins who were prepared for the bridegroom's arrival were rewarded, while the five who are not prepared are disowned. The parable has a clear eschatological theme: be prepared for the Day of Judgment.
Again and gain Christ warns in His ministry that he has no place in heaven for in-obedient/ sinful believers.
Here is another example -- Matthew 7: 21 --- where Jesus hands out an unveiled warning to believers who are NOT willing to sacrifice their will for God's SWEET perfect will. Believing is like getting married to Christ . And NOW starts the hard part, the marriage!---- DOING THE WILL OF GOD all our lives till the last breath. Even while we stumble and bumble and the Cross which we are carrying, crashes to the floor, we are supposed to pick it up again and again ( as Jesus did) as WE WALK to OUR Golgotha. yes, there WILL be crucifixion for us too. An emotional crucifixion as we face daily MOMENT BY MOMENT ferocious attacks (and temptations) from the three great enemies we have---- FLESH, WORLD , and the DEVIL [ the F -W-D]. They are like vicious wolves which gnaw at us all day. yet The Lord provided us with the Holy Spirit one who is greater than the one on earth -- the devil. And therefore it becomes imperative to walk in the Spirit. in the book of revelation Jesus is not the gentle Jesus we know. because He is now in raw power with a Double-edged sword proceeding from His mouth. he is in no mood to accept sinful lifestyle in the name of being saved through easy belief in the messiah. WHAT ARE YOUR WORKS! He will thunder when we reach there ( Revelation 2: 26)
It is from this book that I realized that easy believeism doctrine does not exist in the book of Christ. It was made up to make Christianity ( which is a very hard walk) become easy and acceptable to all. Just believe and get saved and now all your past present and future sins are covered! really? Really? What gospel is this? who masterminded this deception by AMPUTATING the second and absolutely VITAL component of the salvation doctrine preached by the Lord Jesus Christ?
( Matthew 28: 18-20)
Then Jesus came to them and said,
“All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.”



James 1: 22 “But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.”


Luke (9:23)And he said before everyone, “Whoever is willing to come after me, let him deny himself, let him take up his cross daily, and let him come after me.”


Matthew 12: 46-50
While Jesus was still talking to the crowd, his mother and brothers stood outside, wanting to speak to him. 47 Someone told him, “Your mother and brothers are standing outside, wanting to speak to you.”

48 He replied to him, “Who is my mother, and who are my brothers?”49 Pointing to his disciples, he said, “Here are my mother and my brothers. 50 For whoever does the will of my Father in heaven is my brother and sister and mother.”
I believe Jesus is abundantly clear here that if we do NOT do the will of God , we have no relations with Jesus, no matter how hard we scream "I believe!"


Dear dear lovely brothers and sisters on Christ out Lord, I, raj, love you all. I mean that. If I share something, I wish to make sure its Biblically sound and supported by verses. With great difficulty and after 13 long years of being a Christian, I realized the clarion call of the Christ was to DO THE WILL OF GOD OVER OUR WILL
( Matthew 7:21)


Ez believism , as the doctrine of salvation, just does not exist. It was cleverly crafted to make Christianity an easy , attractive and enjoyable experience--- much like what Joel Osteen and company teach. Some Churches are guilty of teaching this message, like my erstwhile church did. Also, it gets hoards of people to the Lord. because all they have to do is BELIEVE and their sins forever are forgiven. Thus this man-made doctrine made it very easy to believe and get saved. Easy believers stopped fearing God ( which the beginning of wisdom). Many Ez believers continued a sinful lifestyle since their pastor had ASSURED them that all their sins was covered. [ast present and future. Ez believer also found no need to study Bible and practise love and compassion. Or even share the gospel. their salvation was a foregone conclusion. It was something even God couldn't take away from them! But that is not the message friends. It's a twisted message. And the words of Jesus point in that direction. If it were so easy Jesus wouldn't have been very strong on obedience-- DOING GOD'S WILL ------which Jesus ALWAYS did.






Rajesh, That is a really beautiful post, straight from the heart.
Jesus told us himself to obey Him and keep His commandments. The whole of the NT shows us the way we should follow Christ. I find it hard to understand how any cannot see it.
We have to carry that cross daily as you say. But the Holy Spirit helps us along with it. I choose to follow Jesus, I stumble many times, but am helped up again. We have a wonderful Lord in Jesus.
 
This ⬆️ is precisely my point! This is the situation at this point of Jesus’s ministry, before His teaching to the 11 (Judas wasn’t there to hear the John 17 teaching).

So does it ⬆️ say that any of the 12 had the words of eternal life?

Do you think Peter’s statment here teaches that Judas had eternal life or something?

But back to John 17:

They have now come-to-know that all things that You have given to Me are from You— because I have given them the words which You gave to Me, and they received them, and truly understood that I came forth from You, and believed that You sent Me forth.
John 17:7-8 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=John 17:7-8&version=DLNT

Does this ⬆️ teach you when it was that the 11 (Judas wasn’t there) came to know and “truly understand” and receive the words of eternal life?


Here is my question that was not answered.


Was Judas among the twelve when Peter said this -

67 Then Jesus said to the twelve, “Do you also want to go away?”

68 But Simon Peter answered Him, “Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life. 69 Also we have come to believe and know that You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.” John 6:67-69


  • we have come to believe and know that You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.
 
While I do get why some want to clarify what it means to truly believe, threads such as this one don't bring clarity, but muddy the waters.

When Scriptures (especially parallel passages, OT references/types, related topics in other Books, broader contexts for a verse, Greek grammar, etc.) are presented that provide supporting evidences for someone’s views (yes, even for views I might currently disagree with), it provides better clarity for me. It’s inline with our Biblical mandate to ‘give a prepared answer for what you believe ... something about gentleness (I forget)’ - to paraphrase Peter.
 
Judas followed Jesus for over 3 years, and betrayed him during the Passover just before the crucifixion.

Today, easy believism teaches a person has received their salvation at the moment they believe, and there is nothing more to do because the have received eternal life and can never perish.


JLB
that not a total fair statement i am sure there are those who may believe that. i like listening to several southern baptist ministers and they by ar preach teach there is nothing more to do because the have received eternal life and can never perish. in fact many of them preach against sin and preach repentance..i have yet to hear those i listen to say that.. and no i am not southern baptist i am ordained through gen baptist..i am mostly non denom ..
 
i started this thread and so far i have read opinions . it s of my belief the term
easy believism is a man made phrase. when they think one doctrine is weak
 

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