Like this post if you believe in pre-trib rapture of the church!

[dirtfarmer]

That's the way I see it.

Yeah. Being conformed to the image of Christ is salvation. It is the restored image and likeness in which man was originally created.

hello Jim Parker, dirtfarmer here

If being conformed to the image of Christ is salvation, then show scripture where the old testament saints were conformed to the image of Christ.

 

[dirtfarmer]

personally i dont see the church going through the tribulation . in that tribulation his wrath is being poured out

hello ezra, dirtfarmer here

I agree and would give you "a like" but there is no button.
dirtfarmer

 

[Truthfrees]

You mean, ref acts 19:2, they were ignorant of the Fathers promise and were John's disciples. Not Jesus. They were then baptized in the name of Jesus after coming to that understanding.
As the accounting states

4 Paul said, “John’s baptism was a baptism of repentance. He told the people to believe in the one coming after him, that is, in Jesus.” 5 On hearing this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. 6 When Paul placed his hands on them, the Holy Spirit came on them, and they spoke in tongues and prophesied. 7 There were about twelve men in all.

John was sent to prepare a way for the Lord and that the Christ would be revealed to Israel. For those men to receive Johns words and baptism that is in their favor.

The Holy Spirit seeks those who would worship God in Spirit and in truth and the Father is always working. Those who listen and learn from the Father go to the Son and Jesus will raise them up on the last day.

amen this is true - imo it's better to be baptized in Christ and be also baptized in the Holy Spirit - but there are examples of both types of christians in the bible - which causes me to believe that in the pre-trib version of the rapture the new christians after the tribulation would not have the indwelling Holy Spirit IF i am interpreting the scripture about the antichrist not being able to be revealed until the Holy Spirit Who holds Him back is taken from out of the way

that's the thing about end-time interpretations - if you have one part wrong it throws the whole thing off track - i guess that is why none of us know for sure about the end-times - we are trying to figure it out the best we can

 

[Truthfrees]

hello Jim Parker, dirtfarmer here

If being conformed to the image of Christ is salvation, then show scripture where the old testament saints were conformed to the image of Christ.

Christ is God and in Genesis 1:26 God said let US make man in our own image - so this would be the image of God the Father - God the Son - and God the Holy Spirit

 

[ezra]

- i guess that is why none of us know for sure about the end-times - we are trying to figure it out the best we can

this is the best post yet on end times ..this is why i say as long as i am ready then that is the most important thing. old time preacher man i knows says he believes in the pan Millennium . keep things squared away with Christ it will all pan out

 

[Truthfrees]

< had not yet received the Holy Spirit> they may not understood but you have to have the spirit to be saved --born of the spirit which dwells in our heart the moment we get saved
not what scripture says Romans 8:9

except for the instance where it didn't happen that way in Acts 19:2 - and no one before pentecost received the Holy Spirit yet they were followers of Christ - christians

so what were they if not christians? - what ever they were this is who i believe will be those who believe Jesus is Messiah/Savior after they missed the pre-trib rapture

and to the thief on the cross to whom Jeus said "I promise you that you will be in paradise with Me today" - so what was he? he didnt have the Holy Spirit either - christian

 

[Truthfrees]

this is the best post yet on end times ..this is why i say as long as i am ready then that is the most important thing. old time preacher man i knows says he believes in the pan Millennium . keep things squared away with Christ it will all pan out

yes - good one - i agree with that kind of lifestyle for sure - it yields all kinds of good results today and tomorrow

 

[Truthfrees]

That depends on how you define the word "Christian."

However, Jesus did say; "...unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God." (John 3:5) And that is the essence of "being a Christian": to have entered in to the "kingdom" of God.
(Gr: βασιλεία basileia: royal power, kingship, dominion, rule - From Strong's G932) The kingdom of God is the realization of being united to God in Christ. That is impossible without the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.

To be a Christian, a person must be "one with God." That is impossible without the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.
Jhn 17:20-23 I do not pray for these alone, but also for those who will believe in Me through their word; that they all may be one, as You, Father, are in Me, and I in You; that they also may be one in Us, that the world may believe that You sent Me. And the glory which You gave Me I have given them, that they may be one just as We are one: I in them, and You in Me; that they may be made perfect in one, and that the world may know that You have sent Me, and have loved them as You have loved Me.

There are people who are "followers" of Christ who are not Christians. Jesus commanded His apostles (Mat 28:18-19) to make "disciples" (not "followers") and to teach them to obey everything He had commanded them. A Christian is a disciple; one who is under discipline; one who is obedient to His LORD. A "follower" can simply be a "fan," that is, someone who admires Christ (like Gandhi) but who is not willing to submit to Christ's rule.

Examples of "followers":
Mat 13:20-21 But he who received the seed (word) on stony places, this is he who hears the word and immediately receives it with joy; yet he has no root in himself, but endures only for a while. For when tribulation or persecution arises because of the word, immediately he stumbles.

Jhn 6:66 From that time many of His disciples went back and walked with Him no more.


So, if you define "Christian" as a follower or an admirer or a "fan" then your definition is too broad.
Mat 7:21-23 Not everyone who says to Me, "Lord, Lord," shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. Many will say to Me in that day, "Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?" And then I will declare to them, "I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!"

Luk 6:46 But why do you call Me "Lord, Lord," and not do the things which I say?

Rom 8:13-14 For if you live according to the flesh you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live. For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God.


iakov the fool
(beaucoup dien cai dau)

DISCLAIMER: By reading the words posted above, you have made a free will choice to expose yourself to the rantings of iakov the fool. The poster assumes no responsibility for any temporary, permanent or otherwise annoying manifestations of cognitive dysfunction that, in any manner, may allegedly be related to the reader’s deliberate act by which he/she has knowingly allowed the above rantings to enter into his/her consciousness. No warrantee is expressed or implied. Individual mileage may vary. And, no, I don't want to hear about it. No sniveling! Enjoy the rest of your life here and the eternal one to come.

good point - so then those who were disciples before pentecost could not be born again yet because the Holy Spirit had not yet come - because Jesus had not yet left

so then "disciples" would be the better label perhaps to describe those who have not yet received the Holy Spirit - yet are believers /followers/disciples/students of Jesus

this is the condition i believe those who miss the pre-trib rapture will find themselves in IF the Holy Spirit leaves earth with us so the antichrist can be revealed

 

[Truthfrees]

personally i dont see the church going through the tribulation . in that tribulation his wrath is being poured out

i agree with this - the 1st 3.5 years is the wrath of the antichrist - the last 3.5 years is the wrath of God - and we are not appointed to suffer wrath - so we are out of here pre-trib as far as i can figure

 

[Jim Parker]

personally i dont see the church going through the tribulation

There is only one return of the LORD at the end of the age.
When He returns there will be the resurrection and the Church will meet the LORD in the air.
This will happen after the son of perdition sets himself up in the Temple as god. That's at the end of the tribulation.
Jesus doesn't return until after that.
2Th 2:1-4 Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come.
Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.

 

[Truthfrees]

hello Jim Parker, dirtfarmer here

Man was created innocent, but dying a physical death. We can know this because we are told that "flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption"( 1 Corinthians 15:50). Therefore there must be a change from mortal to immortal and from corruptible to incorruptible. Scripture does not bear out that God created man immortal or incorruptible, therefore the necessity of the rapture.

good point - food for thought - thanks

 

[Jim Parker]

good point - so then those who were disciples before pentecost could not be born again yet because the Holy Spirit had not yet come - because Jesus had not yet left

so then "disciples" would be the better label perhaps to describe those who have not yet received the Holy Spirit - yet are believers /followers/disciples/students of Jesus

YEs.
HOWEVER: What shall we say about Elijah and Enoch and the thief on the cross?
Hmmmmmmm..........

this is the condition i believe those who miss the pre-trib rapture will find themselves in IF the Holy Spirit leaves earth with us so the antichrist can be revealed

I personally reject the whole "rapture" teaching as a (relatively) modern invention, a "new wave of doctrine" if you will. I reject it based on 2Th 2:1-4
Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come. Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.

The scriptures teach that Jesus will come again.
They don't teach that He will come two more times.

as best as I can see....

 

[ezra]

There is only one return of the LORD at the end of the age.
When He returns there will be the resurrection and the Church will meet the LORD in the air.
This will happen after the son of perdition sets himself up in the Temple as god. That's at the end of the tribulation.
Jesus doesn't return until after that.
2Th 2:1-4 Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come.
Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.

you have your views and i have mine

 

[Randy]

personally i dont see the church going through the tribulation . in that tribulation his wrath is being poured out

Rev 9:4
They were told not to harm the grass of the earth or any plant or tree, but only those people who did not have the seal of God on their foreheads.
The beast is not God. He will make war against the saints. So there must be saints to make war against.
Rev 13:7
It was given power to wage war against God's holy people and to conquer them. And it was given authority over every tribe, people, language and nation.
Rev 13
“If anyone is to go into captivity,
into captivity they will go.
If anyone is to be killedc with the sword,
with the sword they will be killed.”
This calls for patient endurance and faithfulness on the part of God’s people.

Rev 20:4
And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

If any saint is not alive on earth on the last day it will be because of the death of the body.

 

[Jim Parker]

If being conformed to the image of Christ is salvation, then show scripture where the old testament saints were conformed to the image of Christ.

The Old Testament saints were those who did their best to keep the Law and who repented when they failed.
That is the process of being conformed.
Those who believed and were faithful to the Law were being conformed to the image of Christ.

 

[Truthfrees]

YEs.
HOWEVER: What shall we say about Elijah and Enoch and the thief on the cross?
Hmmmmmmm..........

I personally reject the whole "rapture" teaching as a (relatively) modern invention, a "new wave of doctrine" if you will. I reject it based on 2Th 2:1-4
Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come. Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.

The scriptures teach that Jesus will come again.
They don't teach that He will come two more times.

as best as I can see....

thief on the cross believed Jesus was Who He said He was - just as the disciples - so disciple

Enoch and Elijah - they knew God - did they know God the Father Son and Holy Ghost? - how can we know for sure - so if they knew God the Son they could be called disciples of Christ -

is that what you were meaning or did i miss your point?

re: rapture/catching up into the air to be with Jesus - are you saying you are not pre-mid-post-trib rapture - you don't believe we will be caught up to be with Jesus and taken to the marriage supper of the Lamb in heaven? -

or are you just opposed to using the word rapture for the dead resurrecting and those who are alive being caught up to meet the Lord in the air?

 

[jasonc]

The difference is those armies in the past were not defeated by the coming of Jesus and His armies nor was the mount of olives slit in two to make a way of escape from Jerusalem from those surrounding armies.

You could argue anything that does change the meaning of what I gave you.

Gog and magog armies are destroyed by fire from heaven. That hasn't happened yet either. If you follow the timeline in Rev (I do) then Jesus will be in Israel and I see no need to retreat or flee from those armies. I can be quite brave standing behind a risen returned Jesus who has the direct command of the armies of heaven at His disposal.(smile)

I agree

hello Jim Parker, dirtfarmer here

If being conformed to the image of Christ is salvation, then show scripture where the old testament saints were conformed to the image of Christ.

The Old Testament saints were those who did their best to keep the Law and who repented when they failed.
That is the process of being conformed.
Those who believed and were faithful to the Law were being conformed to the image of Christ.

Jim ,I agree,dirtfarmer
How is it,that Jesus says these things, Abraham knew me ,aND moses woukdnt have done this

David a man after my own heart.this isn't possible by Davids power aND David also cried to God not to take His Spirit from him.

James said the prophet elisha was a man like us.you can't assume the jews ,the Gentiles before the cross didn't have the ability nor desire to ask God to change them to be Holy.

Was it like our means ,no but they did also write much of what we quote .

Let the reddeemed of the Lord say so was chanted long before pentacost.
It's hidden there but

Moses was meek,he wasn't the only one but was known for it,Noah found grace, David was found to be a man after God's own heart,job,Daniel could intercede for nations.as could abraham,Abraham also entreated strangers.

God changed abram to Abraham and Jacob to isreal.in Hebrew those names mean character in how they acted,jacob a deciever,now a prince,abram,an idolater,now a father of many,thought these are interpretations depending on your source.

You assume the law was to make you right and you worked to be righteous,it wasnt,it was to teach ,the hebrew word for the law is torah, teaching,a command.

The prophet isiah confessed his sin and was cleanses by a coal fire by an angel,abraham believed in the promise of land and righteous was imputed upon him.

Shadows,this act of God told me to dwell here,live like this,be circumcised implied acts upon a faith first.

Moses said circumcise you heart first and be ye more stiff necked.

For I know abraham ,he will teach my statues ,ordinances,abraham moved on faith with isaac,and also other things.

These men were flawed but do actually try to read the tanach in depth. You can learn from a messanic jew about the torah.dirt

I was lead to the torah over the book of john.yet I have not scratched the surface of either

 

[dirtfarmer]

YEs.
HOWEVER: What shall we say about Elijah and Enoch and the thief on the cross?
Hmmmmmmm..........

I personally reject the whole "rapture" teaching as a (relatively) modern invention, a "new wave of doctrine" if you will. I reject it based on 2Th 2:1-4
Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come. Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.

The scriptures teach that Jesus will come again.
They don't teach that He will come two more times.

as best as I can see....

hello Jim Parker, dirtfarmer here

If I remember correctly, in a previous post you made reference to the fact that a third temple will be constructed, am I correct?
If so, then how are the Gentiles going to worship in the temple? Only Jewish men are allowed into the temple. What about the women and children?

Speaking of Enoch and Elijah that have never "tasted" death, they were not for God took them. So, will Elijah and Enoch be the 2 witnesses that lay dead in the street of Jerusalem for 2 days so that everyone will see them? If so, then where is the body of Christ(the Church) when this happens?

It is my understanding that "the day of Christ" is a time of judgment. If this is correct, then why will the believers be judged again, seeing that they were judged when Christ became sin so that we, the believers, would become the righteousness of God in Christ Jesus.

 

[ezra]

It is my understanding that "the day of Christ" is a time of judgment. If this is correct, then why will the believers be judged again, seeing that they were judged when Christ became sin so that we, the believers, would become the righteousness of God in Christ Jesus.

 

[Randy]

hello Jim Parker, dirtfarmer here



Speaking of Enoch and Elijah that have never "tasted" death, they were not for God took them. So, will Elijah and Enoch be the 2 witnesses that lay dead in the street of Jerusalem for 2 days so that everyone will see them? If so, then where is the body of Christ(the Church) when this happens?

It is my understanding that "the day of Christ" is a time of judgment. If this is correct, then why will the believers be judged again, seeing that they were judged when Christ became sin so that we, the believers, would become the righteousness of God in Christ Jesus.

The two witnesses were not named. Is Elijah and Enoch going to suddenly appear alive on earth and prophesy for 1260 days? I personally don't think so. But I do hold there will be two witnesses who are born and raised in that time period. More than likely set apart from birth before they do good or bad like Paul . Chosen not by merit but by grace. Their bodies will lay unburied for 3-1/2 days as the world rejoices.

The peoples who take joy in their deaths and refused to repent of their evil ways and won't believe even after those addition signs were given will never repent for God will send them the powerful delusion given by the beast so they believe the lie and so be judged. Regardless if the Holy Spirit is in the world or not.