Like this post if you believe in pre-trib rapture of the church!

[JLB]

The Lord Jesus Christ, through the prophet Zechariah is foretelling of His coming and the Day of the Lord to gather His people together and destroy the wicked, in which He takes His place as King over the Earth in Jerusalem.



Behold, the day of the Lord is coming,
And your spoil will be divided in your midst.
For I will gather all the nations to battle against Jerusalem;
The city shall be taken,
The houses rifled,
And the women ravished.
Half of the city shall go into captivity,
But the remnant of the people shall not be cut off from the city.
Then the Lord will go forth
And fight against those nations,
As He fights in the day of battle.
And in that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives,
Which faces Jerusalem on the east.
And the Mount of Olives shall be split in two,
From east to west,
Making a very large valley;
Half of the mountain shall move toward the north
And half of it toward the south.
Then you shall flee through My mountain valley,
For the mountain valley shall reach to Azal.
Yes, you shall flee
As you fled from the earthquake
In the days of Uzziah king of Judah.
Thus the Lord my God will come,
And all the saints with You.
Zechariah 14:1-5


JLB

 

[Randy]

Tel meggiddo.the location is in isreal very tiny hill over a stragetic pass.old name was har megiddo.

Victory there implies control or loss of control of isreal.

In ww1 there was a battle there.it's a small pass.

The victory is given to the saints of the Most High-and the gathering will be from the ends of the heavens on that day.
How do you read Zech 14 and Daniel 12:1 -at that time? Or Rev 16:15-16- a coming of the Lord? Or 2 thess 2:8?

I read it -The battle (at that time) of God almighty Rev 16:14

 

[Truthfrees]

There are Christians noted to the end. They would have the Spirit of Christ in them.
Rev 13:7 - The beast
It was given power to wage war against God's holy people and to conquer them. And it was given authority over every tribe, people, language and nation.
Rev 14:12
This calls for patient endurance on the part of the people of God who keep his commands and remain faithful to Jesus.

At the very end. Jesus come to pronounce judgment in favor of the saints, usher in everlasting righteousness; and to deal with the enemies of God that is those who cause and do evil.(pull up the weeds) For He must remain at the right hand of the Father until God makes His enemies His footstool. Psalm 110:1

The last day. The great battle of God almighty
Rev 16:15-16
(“Behold, I am coming like a thief. Blessed is the one who stays awake and keeps his clothes, so that he will not walk about naked and men will not see his shame.”) 16And they gathered them together to the place which in Hebrew is called Har-Magedon.

not necessarily - here are some christians who knew nothing of the Holy Spirit and had not yet received the Holy Spirit - so it is for sure an interesting study - Acts 19:2

there were many followers of Christ before pentecost - so it is possible to be a christian and not have the indwelling Holy Spirit - Jesus said He would send the comforter Holy Spirit so we would not be left alone - John 14:16-18 - John 14:26 - John 15:26

 

[jasonc]

The victory is given to the saints of the Most High-and the gathering will be from the ends of the heavens on that day.
How do you read Zech 14 and Daniel 12:1 -at that time? Or Rev 16:15-16- a coming of the Lord? Or 2 thess 2:8?

I read it -The battle (at that time) of God almighty Rev 16:14

Most pre tribbers ,see this as a final battle of a literal army of men against isreal. All armies gathered there.problem is,it's not that big to fit those armies.

I could argue that's the rise of Gog,and magog against isreal and try to enter in there and are decimated in their attempt to attack Jerusalem which makes more sense.

First audience knew of the battles taken there for control of isreal.look up tel meggido,it's photo is shown.you can't say a modern army couldn't simply fight that with air power,arty abd simply take it on the ground.this implying it won't be the only place of battle

 

[Randy]

not necessarily - here are some christians who knew nothing of the Holy Spirit and had not yet received the Holy Spirit - so it is for sure an interesting study - Acts 19:2

there were many followers of Christ before pentecost - so it is possible to be a christian and not have the indwelling Holy Spirit - Jesus said He would send the comforter Holy Spirit so we would not be left alone - John 14:16 - John 14:26 - John 15:26

You mean, ref acts 19:2, they were ignorant of the Fathers promise and were John's disciples. Not Jesus. They were then baptized in the name of Jesus after coming to that understanding.
As the accounting states

4 Paul said, “John’s baptism was a baptism of repentance. He told the people to believe in the one coming after him, that is, in Jesus.” 5 On hearing this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. 6 When Paul placed his hands on them, the Holy Spirit came on them, and they spoke in tongues and prophesied. 7 There were about twelve men in all.

John was sent to prepare a way for the Lord and that the Christ would be revealed to Israel. For those men to receive Johns words and baptism that is in their favor.

The Holy Spirit seeks those who would worship God in Spirit and in truth and the Father is always working. Those who listen and learn from the Father go to the Son and Jesus will raise them up on the last day.

 

[Randy]

Most pre tribbers ,see this as a final battle of a literal army of men against isreal. All armies gathered there.problem is,it's not that big to fit those armies.

I could argue that's the rise of Gog,and magog against isreal and try to enter in there and are decimated in their attempt to attack Jerusalem which makes more sense.

First audience knew of the battles taken there for control of isreal.look up tel meggido,it's photo is shown.you can't say a modern army couldn't simply fight that with air power,arty abd simply take it on the ground.this implying it won't be the only place of battle

The difference is those armies in the past were not defeated by the coming of Jesus and His armies nor was the mount of olives slit in two to make a way of escape from Jerusalem from those surrounding armies.

You could argue anything that does change the meaning of what I gave you.

Gog and magog armies are destroyed by fire from heaven. That hasn't happened yet either. If you follow the timeline in Rev (I do) then Jesus will be in Israel and I see no need to retreat or flee from those armies. I can be quite brave standing behind a risen returned Jesus who has the direct command of the armies of heaven at His disposal.(smile)

 

[ezra]

i really dont know if om a pre trib mib or trib. as o have stated before between pre and mid// i read the scriptures and not convinced Christians will go through the full tribulation. i do believe we will be took out before the full force of the trib hits..

 

[ezra]

not necessarily - here are some christians who knew nothing of the Holy Spirit and had not yet received the Holy Spirit - so it is for sure an interesting study - Acts 19:2

there were many followers of Christ before pentecost - so it is possible to be a christian and not have the indwelling Holy Spirit - Jesus said He would send the comforter Holy Spirit so we would not be left alone - John 14:16-18 - John 14:26 - John 15:26

< had not yet received the Holy Spirit> they may not understood but you have to have the spirit to be saved --born of the spirit which dwells in our heart the moment we get saved
not what scripture says Romans 8:9

 

[Randy]

i really dont know if om a pre trib mib or trib. as o have stated before between pre and mid// i read the scriptures and not convinced Christians will go through the full tribulation. i do believe we will be took out before the full force of the trib hits..

Do you think the resurrection and those caught up is on the same day?

 

[ezra]

Do you think the resurrection and those caught up is on the same day?

honestly that is tough question the Resurrection of the dead in christ then those alive and remaining . i dont see them separate .i do see the return of Christ as king of kings at another time ..am i wrong ? dunno does it matter to me not really . of we are prepared to meet him in the air that is what is important

 

[Jim Parker]

there were many followers of Christ before Pentecost - so it is possible to be a christian and not have the indwelling Holy Spirit

That depends on how you define the word "Christian."

However, Jesus did say; "...unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God." (John 3:5) And that is the essence of "being a Christian": to have entered in to the "kingdom" of God.
(Gr: βασιλεία basileia: royal power, kingship, dominion, rule - From Strong's G932) The kingdom of God is the realization of being united to God in Christ. That is impossible without the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.

To be a Christian, a person must be "one with God." That is impossible without the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.
Jhn 17:20-23 I do not pray for these alone, but also for those who will believe in Me through their word; that they all may be one, as You, Father, are in Me, and I in You; that they also may be one in Us, that the world may believe that You sent Me. And the glory which You gave Me I have given them, that they may be one just as We are one: I in them, and You in Me; that they may be made perfect in one, and that the world may know that You have sent Me, and have loved them as You have loved Me.

There are people who are "followers" of Christ who are not Christians. Jesus commanded His apostles (Mat 28:18-19) to make "disciples" (not "followers") and to teach them to obey everything He had commanded them. A Christian is a disciple; one who is under discipline; one who is obedient to His LORD. A "follower" can simply be a "fan," that is, someone who admires Christ (like Gandhi) but who is not willing to submit to Christ's rule.

Examples of "followers":
Mat 13:20-21 But he who received the seed (word) on stony places, this is he who hears the word and immediately receives it with joy; yet he has no root in himself, but endures only for a while. For when tribulation or persecution arises because of the word, immediately he stumbles.

Jhn 6:66 From that time many of His disciples went back and walked with Him no more.


So, if you define "Christian" as a follower or an admirer or a "fan" then your definition is too broad.
Mat 7:21-23 Not everyone who says to Me, "Lord, Lord," shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. Many will say to Me in that day, "Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?" And then I will declare to them, "I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!"

Luk 6:46 But why do you call Me "Lord, Lord," and not do the things which I say?

Rom 8:13-14 For if you live according to the flesh you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live. For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God.


iakov the fool
(beaucoup dien cai dau)

DISCLAIMER: By reading the words posted above, you have made a free will choice to expose yourself to the rantings of iakov the fool. The poster assumes no responsibility for any temporary, permanent or otherwise annoying manifestations of cognitive dysfunction that, in any manner, may allegedly be related to the reader’s deliberate act by which he/she has knowingly allowed the above rantings to enter into his/her consciousness. No warrantee is expressed or implied. Individual mileage may vary. And, no, I don't want to hear about it. No sniveling! Enjoy the rest of your life here and the eternal one to come.

 

[Jim Parker]

Do you think the resurrection and those caught up is on the same day?

That is exactly what Paul was teaching the Thessalonians because there were some preachers who were saying that the resurrection had already happened.

Here's the Lord coming, the resurrection and believers being caught up all on the same day:

1Th 4:15-16 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. For (1) the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And (2) the dead in Christ will rise first. (3) Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.

And here is when it will happen: AFTER the son of perdition, who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.

2Th 2:1-4 Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come. Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.


iakov the fool
(beaucoup dien cai dau)


DISCLAIMER: By reading the words posted above, you have made a free will choice to expose yourself to the rantings of iakov the fool. The poster assumes no responsibility for any temporary, permanent or otherwise annoying manifestations of cognitive dysfunction that, in any manner, may allegedly be related to the reader’s deliberate act by which he/she has knowingly allowed the above rantings to enter into his/her consciousness. No warrantee is expressed or implied. Individual mileage may vary. And, no, I don't want to hear about it. No sniveling! Enjoy the rest of your life here and the eternal one to come.

 

[Randy]

That is exactly what Paul was teaching the Thessalonians because there were some preachers who were saying that the resurrection had already happened.

Here's the Lord coming, the resurrection and believers being caught up all on the same day:

1Th 4:15-16 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. For (1) the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And (2) the dead in Christ will rise first. (3) Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.

And here is when it will happen: AFTER the son of perdition, who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.

2Th 2:1-4 Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come. Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.


iakov the fool
(beaucoup dien cai dau)


DISCLAIMER: By reading the words posted above, you have made a free will choice to expose yourself to the rantings of iakov the fool. The poster assumes no responsibility for any temporary, permanent or otherwise annoying manifestations of cognitive dysfunction that, in any manner, may allegedly be related to the reader’s deliberate act by which he/she has knowingly allowed the above rantings to enter into his/her consciousness. No warrantee is expressed or implied. Individual mileage may vary. And, no, I don't want to hear about it. No sniveling! Enjoy the rest of your life here and the eternal one to come.

Yes-my point was Christians are on earth on the last day. They went through the tribulation.

 

[dirtfarmer]

2Pe 1:1 Simon Peter, a bondservant and apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who have obtained like precious faith with us by the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ:
2Pe 1:10 Therefore, brethren, be even more diligent to make your call and election sure, for if you do these things you will never stumble;

Col 1:1-2a Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, and Timothy our brother, To the saints and faithful brethren in Christ who are in Colosse:
Col 3:12 Therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, put on tender mercies, kindness, humility, meekness, longsuffering;

I used "Blue Letter Bible" (it's on line and it's free) to look these two up. It took maybe 5 minutes.

hello Jim Parker, dirtfarmer here

This thread is about the "pre-trib rapture", not about the elect. That is another thread that could be started. I will say this one thing about "elect" in Colossians 3:12 and then will not discuss election any more in this thread.

The "elect" in this book is not about election to salvation, but it is about "elect"(predestination) to be conformed to the image of Christ as having died to self.

 

[JLB]

2Pe 1:1 Simon Peter, a bondservant and apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who have obtained like precious faith with us by the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ:
2Pe 1:10 Therefore, brethren, be even more diligent to make your call and election sure, for if you do these things you will never stumble;

Col 1:1-2a Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, and Timothy our brother, To the saints and faithful brethren in Christ who are in Colosse:
Col 3:12 Therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, put on tender mercies, kindness, humility, meekness, longsuffering;

I used "Blue Letter Bible" (it's on line and it's free) to look these two up. It took maybe 5 minutes.

 

[JLB]

Yes-my point was Christians are on earth on the last day. They went through the tribulation.

Amen.

The resurrection and rapture happen on the last day, at His coming.


JLB

 

[JLB]

The 3 major things that occur at His coming:

The Resurrection of the dead in Christ.
The Rapture.
The destruction of the antichrist.

Once each person comes to understand these three major truths that occur at His coming, there will be no more confusion about this doctrine.


JLB

 

[Jim Parker]

Yes-my point was Christians are on earth on the last day. They went through the tribulation.

That's the way I see it.

The "elect" in this book is not about election to salvation, but it is about "elect"(predestination) to be conformed to the image of Christ as having died to self.

Yeah. Being conformed to the image of Christ is salvation. It is the restored image and likeness in which man was originally created.

 

[ezra]

Yes-my point was Christians are on earth on the last day. They went through the tribulation.

personally i dont see the church going through the tribulation . in that tribulation his wrath is being poured out

 

[dirtfarmer]

That's the way I see it.

Yeah. Being conformed to the image of Christ is salvation. It is the restored image and likeness in which man was originally created.

hello Jim Parker, dirtfarmer here

Man was created innocent, but dying a physical death. We can know this because we are told that "flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption"( 1 Corinthians 15:50). Therefore there must be a change from mortal to immortal and from corruptible to incorruptible. Scripture does not bear out that God created man immortal or incorruptible, therefore the necessity of the rapture.