The Catholic Church.

[Serving Zion]

I would be more than happy to answer your questions...
but I fear they are not sincere but are only rhetorical.

There is potential for good value in the answering of this question:

the Catholic church determined the canon of Scripture -- what is authentic -- but you say there is more that Jesus taught? Recorded by whom? And if so, why do you consider those things to be authoritative?

I'd like to know your thoughts.

 

[GodsGrace]

True - but in Massachusetts I'm a Catholic legally (for purposes of adoption, and religious status), being in the Catholic baptismal records.

No, I'm NOT a "Practicing Catholic", and never was. Dad was a Christmas and Easter Catholic, and Mom was a Born Again Baptist (a "Mixed Marriage" in Massachusetts). they settled the issue by being neither, and were married by a JP in Vermont. The Carabbio family, of course wouldn't accept the marriage (only a marriage in a Catholic CHurch was valid in those days), so they got RE-Married the "Right way", so that I wouldn't be a Bastard. They had to promise to raise me Catholic - but fortunately, they didn't.


Well, there's praying to Saints, The Whole Marian mess, the lie that a Priest can "Forgive sins not committed against himself", Purgatorial Sanctification, Transsubstantiation, MORTAL and Venial SIN, Infant Baptism, to name a few.

But the Catholics believe the Works CONTRIBUTE to their salvation, which is not Biblical.

When a Person is Born Again of the Holy SPirit, they will be CHANGED, and as a RESULT of their salvation, there will be good works as the fruit of that relationship. The "Works", however are not salvific.

ONLY because they've gotten their ears pinned back a few times (Like recently when they found recently that they weren't "Above the law" with their sexually predatory priests (that they used to shuffle around to keep 'em hidden).

A couple of decades is all -

Luther, after all WAS a EDUCATED and ORDAINED Catholic Priest in good standing, before God started opening his eyes to what was going on in his beloved church. That Tetzel was doing his thing was a red flag, and the corruption of the Pope (Leo X) at the time didn't help either.

Interesting conversation Bob,,,,
To be continued tomorrow....12:25 am here.
'night.

 

[GodsGrace]

There is potential for good value in the answering of this question:

I'd like to know your thoughts.

Will be very happy to discuss the above.
It's just difficult to do with someone that is so upset with the CC.
Tomorrow SZ.

 

[Walpole]

The "books" of the Bible were all written before the Catholic church was founded.

The Gospels did not start the Church. Rather, the Church started the Gospels. The Church did not come out of the Gospels. Rather, the Gospels came out of the Church. The Church preceded the New Testament. The early Christians did not come to believe in Jesus because the Gospels recount the story of Him. Rather, the early Christians wrote down the stories of Jesus because they already believed in it. The Church already believed and her members set down much of these beliefs and traditions in what we call the Gospels.

See —-> Luke 1:1-4

The first use of the term "Catholic Church" was by the church father Saint Ignatius of Antioch in his Letter to the Smyrnaeans (circa 110 AD). The entire canon of Scripture was completed decades earlier.

If you have evidence please present it. Otherwise your statement has no value.

The "Catholic Church" is explicitly stated in the New Testament as the Church founded by Christ. In Acts 9:31, it states:

Αἱ μὲν οὖν ἐκκλησίαι καθ᾽ ὅλης τῆς Ἰουδαίας καὶ Γαλιλαίας καὶ Σαμαρείας εἶχον εἰρήνην οἰκοδομουμέναι καὶ πορευομέναι τῷ φόβῳ τοῦ κυρίου καὶ τῇ παρακλήσει τοῦ ἁγίου πνεύματος ἐπληθύνοντο


The word "Catholic" comes from two Greek words:

---> καθ (katah) - Meaning throughout; according to
---> ολης (holos) - All; whole; completely

Εκκλησια (ekklesia) - A gathering of citizens called out from their homes into some public place; an assembly; church

Thus, "ekklesia kata holos" = The Catholic Church


(In English, the "Catholic Church" is a proper noun, hence it is capitalized. The entire New Testament was written in majuscule letters as there were no minuscule letters in Greek until well toward the end of the first millennium.)


Incidentally, St. Luke is the only one who wrote a conclusion to the Gospel with his Acts. The book of Acts details the Church's growth from Pentecost and concludes with the arrival of the faith in the city of Rome, from whence it would go out to all the world.

St. Paul affirming ---> "First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for all of you, because your faith is proclaimed in all the world." (Romans 1:8) Of no other Church or ancient Christian See is this said.

 

[PaulChristensen]

How?

Is The Word of Faith a fraud?
Hyper grace?
Calvinism - which changes the very nature of God....

What's the difference?

All you need to do is to compare the doctrines and practices of both the RCC and hyper-Calvinism, and then make up your own mind. It's all to do with whether we take the New Testament as the sole definitive standard of what Christianity actually is, or whether we decide to include traditional beliefs and practices that have arisen since the New Testament was completed.

 

[PaulChristensen]

When was the Catholic church founded? Why is there no mention of the Catholic Church in the Bible?

Once again, the "books" of the Bible were all written before the Catholic church was founded. The first use of the term "Catholic Church" was by the church father Saint Ignatius of Antioch in his Letter to the Smyrnaeans (circa 110 AD). The entire canon of Scripture was completed decades earlier.

It would behoove you to study church history before commenting on it.

I will not debate this with you any longer. Believe whatever propaganda you wish. I believe Bible historians.

The early rendering of "catholic" as referring to the church, is that it is defined as the universal church. This was when the church was unified without any denominational divisions as we have today. It was on the basis that there was (and still is), one Lord, one faith, and one baptism, even though the church was separated into regional centres. As Paul said, the church in its respective regions all drank of the one Spirit.

When the church leadership became centred on the Bishop of Rome, afterwards titled the Pope, it was still defined as the universal church, and became defined as the "Roman Catholic Church" after the reformation to distinguish it from the Reformed (Lutheran) church. The Great Schism in the 12th Century when the Eastern Orthodox Church separated from the Western Latin church made it that the Roman church was no longer the actual "catholic" church, because at that stage the Christian church was divided into two separate parts. Then the German Reformed church made it three separate parts, followed by the English church under Henry VIII. Following that, the Scottish Covenanters and English Puritans which evolved into the Presbyterian church, followed by the Anabaptists, Quakers, Baptists, Methodists, then the Pentecostals. After that, the "catholic" church became split up into all these different denominations, and a whole raft of independent autonomous church groups. And so the word "catholic" has lost its original meaning, and the principal sect has retained the word "Catholic" in its sectarian title.

 

[jaybo]

The attitude you display above is why I did not take the time to explain some concepts to you or answer your rhetorical questions.

One verse does not a doctrine make....
The entire N.T., ALL TOGETHER, makes doctrine.
It's the only way.

The attitude that you display above is why I will not take the time to explain some concepts to you or answer your rhetorical questions.

The Gospels did not start the Church. Rather, the Church started the Gospels. The Church did not come out of the Gospels. Rather, the Gospels came out of the Church. The Church preceded the New Testament. The early Christians did not come to believe in Jesus because the Gospels recount the story of Him. Rather, the early Christians wrote down the stories of Jesus because they already believed in it. The Church already believed and her members set down much of these beliefs and traditions in what we call the Gospels.

See —-> Luke 1:1-4



The "Catholic Church" is explicitly stated in the New Testament as the Church founded by Christ. In Acts 9:31, it states:

Αἱ μὲν οὖν ἐκκλησίαι καθ᾽ ὅλης τῆς Ἰουδαίας καὶ Γαλιλαίας καὶ Σαμαρείας εἶχον εἰρήνην οἰκοδομουμέναι καὶ πορευομέναι τῷ φόβῳ τοῦ κυρίου καὶ τῇ παρακλήσει τοῦ ἁγίου πνεύματος ἐπληθύνοντο


The word "Catholic" comes from two Greek words:

---> καθ (katah) - Meaning throughout; according to
---> ολης (holos) - All; whole; completely

Εκκλησια (ekklesia) - A gathering of citizens called out from their homes into some public place; an assembly; church

Thus, "ekklesia kata holos" = The Catholic Church


(In English, the "Catholic Church" is a proper noun, hence it is capitalized. The entire New Testament was written in majuscule letters as there were no minuscule letters in Greek until well toward the end of the first millennium.)


Incidentally, St. Luke is the only one who wrote a conclusion to the Gospel with his Acts. The book of Acts details the Church's growth from Pentecost and concludes with the arrival of the faith in the city of Rome, from whence it would go out to all the world.

St. Paul affirming ---> "First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for all of you, because your faith is proclaimed in all the world." (Romans 1:8) Of no other Church or ancient Christian See is this said.

Acts 9:31, "Then the church throughout Judea, Galilee,[bs] and Samaria experienced peace and thus was strengthened. Living in the fear of the Lord and in the encouragement of the Holy Spirit, the church increased in numbers."

I don't see the word "Catholic" here or in the translation you showed.

Therefore, your statement that "The "Catholic Church" is explicitly stated in the New Testament as the Church founded by Christ. In Acts 9:31" is entirely false.

 

[Walpole]

Acts 9:31, "Then the church throughout Judea, Galilee,[bs] and Samaria experienced peace and thus was strengthened. Living in the fear of the Lord and in the encouragement of the Holy Spirit, the church increased in numbers."

I don't see the word "Catholic" here or in the translation you showed.

Therefore, your statement that "The "Catholic Church" is explicitly stated in the New Testament as the Church founded by Christ. In Acts 9:31" is entirely false.

Once again, the etymology of the word "catholic" comes from two Greek words...

Catholic ---> from Greek katholikos, from phrase kath' holou "on the whole, in general," from kata "about" + genitive of holos"whole"

Those two Greek words are explicitly found in Acts 9:31...

Acts 9:31 ---> Αἱ μὲν οὖν ἐκκλησίαι καθ᾽ ὅλης τῆς Ἰουδαίας καὶ Γαλιλαίας καὶ Σαμαρείας εἶχον εἰρήνην οἰκοδομουμέναι καὶ πορευομέναι τῷ φόβῳ τοῦ κυρίου καὶ τῇ παρακλήσει τοῦ ἁγίου πνεύματος ἐπληθύνοντο

---> καθ (katah) - Meaning throughout; according to
---> ολης (holos) - All; whole; completely

kata holos = catholic


This is Etymology 101 stuff.

 

[jaybo]

Once again, the etymology of the word "catholic" comes from two Greek words...

Catholic ---> from Greek katholikos, from phrase kath' holou "on the whole, in general," from kata "about" + genitive of holos"whole"

Those two Greek words are explicitly found in Acts 9:31...

Acts 9:31 ---> Αἱ μὲν οὖν ἐκκλησίαι καθ᾽ ὅλης τῆς Ἰουδαίας καὶ Γαλιλαίας καὶ Σαμαρείας εἶχον εἰρήνην οἰκοδομουμέναι καὶ πορευομέναι τῷ φόβῳ τοῦ κυρίου καὶ τῇ παρακλήσει τοῦ ἁγίου πνεύματος ἐπληθύνοντο

---> καθ (katah) - Meaning throughout; according to
---> ολης (holos) - All; whole; completely

kata holos = catholic


This is Etymology 101 stuff.

It's also sophistry. Taking a single Greek word out of context to claim that the Catholic denomination is specifically mentioned in the Bible is laughable.

 

[Walpole]

It's also sophistry. Taking a single Greek word out of context to claim that the Catholic denomination is specifically mentioned in the Bible is laughable.

Feel free to offer an alternative etymology of the word "catholic."

I look forward to your findings.

 

[jaybo]

Feel free to offer an alternative etymology of the word "catholic."

I look forward to your findings.

Well you won't get one. The discussion is not about the etymology of the word "catholic". It's about the Catholic denomination being mentioned in the Bible. It's not there. It's clear you don't understand the difference between "catholic", meaning "including a wide variety of things; all-embracing", and "Catholic", a Christian denomination.

 

[Walpole]

Well you won't get one. The discussion is not about the etymology of the word "catholic". It's about the Catholic denomination being mentioned in the Bible. It's not there. It's clear you don't understand the difference between "catholic", meaning "including a wide variety of things; all-embracing", and "Catholic", a Christian denomination.

As I suspected. I accept your white flag.

You previously asked for evidence and I gave you the where it is found explicitly in Scripture. If you change your mind and wish to offer a refutation and or offer a rebuttal, feel free to do so.

The Catholic Church is not a denomination. Denominationalism began with Protestantism and has as its root the act of dividing. Think back to your grammar school arithmetic classes and recall the denominator functions as the divisor of the numerator. Denominations involve division.

The Catholic Church is not divided against herself.

 

[jaybo]

As I suspected. I accept your white flag.

You previously asked for evidence and I gave you the where it is found explicitly in Scripture. If you change your mind and wish to offer a refutation and or offer a rebuttal, feel free to do so.

The Catholic Church is not a denomination. Denominationalism began with Protestantism and has as its root the act of dividing. Think back to your grammar school arithmetic classes and recall the denominator functions as the divisor of the numerator. Denominations presume division.

The Catholic Church is not divided against herself.

This is sophistry. Again, there is no mention of the Catholic denomination -- that's all it is -- nothing more.

You wrote, "Denominationalism began with Protestantism and has as its root the act of dividing". Exactly. Martin Luther rebelled against the church for its many violations of God's Word and His commands and had believers return to God's Word, not what the corrupt Catholic church practiced.

God also divided "the sheep from the goats". He chose the Jews to be His people, rescuing them from the Egyptians. He preserved the Jews as His chosen ones until Jesus, the promised Messiah, came. Then He divided the world into those who believed in His Son and those who didn't. Two important separations. So dividing is exactly what God does.

"The Catholic Church is not divided against herself" means nothing. They're divided against everyone else.

 

[Walpole]

This is sophistry. Again, there is no mention of the Catholic denomination -- that's all it is -- nothing more.

Once again, if it's sophistry, please provide the correct etymology of the word "catholic."

The ball is in your court.

You wrote, "Denominationalism began with Protestantism and has as its root the act of dividing". Exactly. Martin Luther rebelled against the church for its many violations of God's Word and His commands and had believers return to God's Word, not what the corrupt Catholic church practiced.

Why aren't all Protestants then...Lutherans?

God also divided "the sheep from the goats". He chose the Jews to be His people, rescuing them from the Egyptians. He preserved the Jews as His chosen ones until Jesus, the promised Messiah, came. Then He divided the world into those who believed in His Son and those who didn't. Two important separations. So dividing is exactly what God does.

Non-sequitur (false equivocation).

In Jesus' high priestly prayer, he prays, "And I am no longer in the world, but they are in the world, and I am coming to you. Holy Father, keep them in your name, which you have given me, that they may be one, even as we are one." (John 17:11)

Jesus founded ONE Church, not multiple sects with competing and contradictory teachings.

"The Catholic Church is not divided against herself" means nothing. They're divided against everyone else.

Paradoxically, it is the Catholic Church which actually unites Protestantism, as the only thing that truly unites the multitudes of Protestant sects is their protest of the Church and their belief that the Catholic Church is not Christ's Church. In other words, the very essence of Protestantism today is still defined by the unity of the Catholic Church and their protest of it.

It is a beautiful expression of how the Church's unity projects even unto her adversaries.

 

[Serving Zion]

(In English, the "Catholic Church" is a proper noun, hence it is capitalized. The entire New Testament was written in majuscule letters as there were no minuscule letters in Greek until well toward the end of the first millennium.)

Is there any reason to interpret the expression "ἐκκλησίαι καθ᾽ ὅλης" (Ekklesia kata holos) as a proper noun? Or is that only applied in the English because the Catholic Church has taken the form of a corporate entity?

 

[Walpole]

Is there any reason to interpret the expression "ἐκκλησίαι καθ᾽ ὅλης" (Ekklesia kata holos) as a proper noun? Or is that only applied in the English because the Catholic Church has taken the form of a corporate entity?

Because it's a particular thing, Christ's Church, in English it is a proper noun.

 

[Serving Zion]

Because it's a particular thing, Christ's Church, in English it is a proper noun.

Then the definition of Catholic Church as a proper noun must refer to the corporeal body of Christ that is defined by Christ's own declaration of who is His own (eg: John 10:27).

In order for the Roman Catholic Church to qualify as the one who defines Christ's sheep of John 10:27, by demonstrating that all who hear it and follow it are in fact hearing and following Christ, it must also claim to be speaking the words of Christ Himself and leading in the way He leads. Is that a responsibility taken on by the Pope of the Roman Catholic Church? Is it a responsibility shared by the bishops and other parishioners too?

 

[jaybo]

Once again, if it's sophistry, please provide the correct etymology of the word "catholic."

The ball is in your court.

Why aren't all Protestants then...Lutherans?

Non-sequitur (false equivocation).

In Jesus' high priestly prayer, he prays, "And I am no longer in the world, but they are in the world, and I am coming to you. Holy Father, keep them in your name, which you have given me, that they may be one, even as we are one." (John 17:11)

Jesus founded ONE Church, not multiple sects with competing and contradictory teachings.

Paradoxically, it is the Catholic Church which actually unites Protestantism, as the only thing that truly unites the multitudes of Protestant sects is their protest of the Church and their belief that the Catholic Church is not Christ's Church. In other words, the very essence of Protestantism today is still defined by the unity of the Catholic Church and their protest of it.

It is a beautiful expression of how the Church's unity projects even unto her adversaries.

I am done discussing this with you. You have your mind set and aren't willing to pay attention to sound reasoning.

1) You deliberately fail to understand the difference between "catholic" and "Catholic". One is an adjective, the other is the name of a denomination.

2) The reason that all Protestants aren't Lutherans is that Lutheranism is, like Catholicism, a denomination. (Neither Catholicism nor Lutheranism are mentioned in Scripture.)

3) In Jesus' high priestly prayer, he prays, "And I am no longer in the world, but they are in the world, and I am coming to you. Holy Father, keep them in your name, which you have given me, that they may be one, even as we are one." (John 17:11) All Catholics should read this instead of claiming that Catholics are the one true church; it applies to all those who believe in Christ.

John 17:6-13, " “I have revealed your name to the men you gave me out of the world. They belonged to you, and you gave them to me, and they have obeyed your word. Now they understand that everything you have given me comes from you, because I have given them the words you have given me. They accepted them and really understand that I came from you, and they believed that you sent me. I am praying on behalf of them. I am not praying on behalf of the world, but on behalf of those you have given me, because they belong to you. Everything I have belongs to you, and everything you have belongs to me, and I have been glorified by them. I am no longer in the world, but they are in the world, and I am coming to you. Holy Father, keep them safe in your name that you have given me, so that they may be one just as we are one. When I was with them I kept them safe and watched over them in your name that you have given me. Not one of them was lost except the one destined for destruction, so that the scripture could be fulfilled.But now I am coming to you, and I am saying these things in the world, so they may experience my joy completed in themselves."

You wrote, "Jesus founded ONE Church, not multiple sects with competing and contradictory teachings." I find this tragically amusing, as it is the Catholic church that claims to be the one true church. There is no mention of the Catholic church in Scripture!!! (How many times must I say this?)

Finally, you're saying that it is the Catholic Church which actually unites Protestantism is the most bizarre thing I have read in a long time.

Since your mind is closed to all but Catholic dogma, I am done trying to reason with you.

 

[Serving Zion]

All Catholics should read this instead of claiming that Catholics are the one true church; it applies to all those who believe in Christ.

I have met Catholics who received me in spirit and I have met unspiritual Catholics who look for carnal qualifications in order to judge whether I should be received. It demonstrates 1 Corinthians 2:15 and explains why they're so focussed on claiming exclusive right to the expression "Apostolic Succession".

 

[Walpole]

Then the definition of Catholic Church as a proper noun must refer to the corporeal body of Christ that is defined by Christ's own declaration of who is His own (eg: John 10:27).

In order for the Roman Catholic Church to qualify as the one who defines Christ's sheep of John 10:27, by demonstrating that all who hear it and follow it are in fact hearing and following Christ, it must also claim to be speaking the words of Christ Himself and leading in the way He leads. Is that a responsibility taken on by the Pope of the Roman Catholic Church? Is it a responsibility shared by the bishops and other parishioners too?

Indeed. The Catholic Church is an extension of the incarnation, continuing Christ's mission to teach and sanctify. It is the body of Christ continuing in time and thus it is a divine institution. If the Church is not a divine institution, it is nothing more than a religious Elks Club.