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Why are the scriptures NOT sufficient "for instruction, for conviction, for correction, and for training in righteousness?" - 2 Timothy 3:16-17

Jethro Bodine said:
Surely that is true. But isn't it still the sole authority and sufficiency of scripture that is being served?

Besides God given gifts to various people, and various historical facts needed to understand scripture, what do those who resist sola scriptura think we need in addition to the scriptures that the scriptures themselves lack?
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As someone who is carefully considering converting to Catholicism, I am of course, by considering it, leaving "sola scriptura" behind. I'm still learning about it all, but the general understanding is that there are traditions that the apostles started that weren't recorded in scripture.
I can neither defend nor back up this teaching at this time.
 
Jethro Bodine said:
what do those who resist sola scriptura think we need in addition to the scriptures that the scriptures themselves lack?
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The biggest group are Roman Catholic who insist that TRADITION is to be followed to the extent that TRADITION determines the meaning of Scripture and can add to scripture including the apocrypha.
This is part the great and possibly salvific divide.

If we change the question to be more specific, however, we can have a definite answer: “are Catholics who adhere to official Roman Catholic beliefs and practices saved?” The answer to this question is “no.” Why? Because the official teaching of Roman Catholicism is that salvation is not by faith alone, through grace alone, in Christ alone. The Roman Catholic Church teaches that one must have good works and observe the rituals of Roman Catholicism in order to be saved. https://www.gotquestions.org/are-Catholics-saved.html

Naturally, the R.C.'s see it differently. So, if "free will" be true, then it could be "on you" to determine your eternal destiny by choosing the religious body that saves or that destroys.
 
evenifigoalone said:
As someone who is carefully considering converting to Catholicism, I am of course, by considering it, leaving "sola scriptura" behind. I'm still learning about it all, but the general understanding is that there are traditions that the apostles started that weren't recorded in scripture.
I can neither defend nor back up this teaching at this time.
Click to expand...
What is it that you think Catholicism provides that you want or think you need?

As a Catholic you will have to surrender any notion that you may presently have that you are saved. They believe that salvation occurs at the resurrection, not in this life. And so they work the works of faith they are sure will make it so they will be saved when Jesus returns. It's a works gospel religion.
 
Jethro Bodine said:
What is it that you think Catholicism provides that you want or think you need?

As a Catholic you will have to surrender any notion that you may presently have that you are saved. They believe that salvation occurs at the resurrection, not in this life. And so they work the works of faith they are sure will make it so they will be saved when Jesus returns. It's a works gospel religion.
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Unless one is Mary the Mother of God .the Only person God choose ..

God choose .. but the reformed ...
 
Jethro Bodine said:
What is it that you think Catholicism provides that you want or think you need?

As a Catholic you will have to surrender any notion that you may presently have that you are saved. They believe that salvation occurs at the resurrection, not in this life. And so they work the works of faith they are sure will make it so they will be saved when Jesus returns. It's a works gospel religion.
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I admit that Catholicism appeals to me in part because it feels like I'm actually following a religion, as opposed to loosy goosy "I believe this but don't do anything about it" type stuff.
All that said, I will not convert without careful research and prayer.
 
evenifigoalone said:
I admit that Catholicism appeals to me in part because it feels like I'm actually following a religion
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I was going to say this is often the reason why people find ceremonial religion attractive. It makes them feel like they've done something. Following carefully orchestrated worship ceremonies is not what it means to live for and please God. We live for and please God when we walk according to the fruit of the Spirit. That is how God wants to be worshipped above all other ways.

17For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking (ceremonial worship), but of righteousness, peace, and joy in the Holy Spirit. 18For whoever serves Christ in this way is pleasing to God and approved by men.
Romans 14:17-18

See it? Whoever serves Christ IN THIS WAY , the way of righteousness, peace, and joy in the Spirit, is pleasing to God, and, approved by men. It's a win win. The fruit of the Spirit makes you pleasing to, both, God and man.

Secondly, he wants us to serve others according to our gift(s) so that others can also be built up to then please God in their own walk with him according to the fruit of the Spirit:

10As good stewards of the manifold grace of God, each of you should use whatever gift he has received to serve one another. 11If anyone speaks, he should speak as one conveying the words of God. If anyone serves, he should serve with the strength God provides, so that in all things God may be glorified through Jesus Christ
1 Peter 4:10-11

These are life verses for me. I've been down this road and I can assure you this is the path that God wants you to walk. The path of righteousness, peace, and joy in the Holy Spirit and service to others through your particular gift. That is the worship and service he desires.
 
evenifigoalone said:
As someone who is carefully considering converting to Catholicism, I am of course, by considering it, leaving "sola scriptura" behind. I'm still learning about it all, but the general understanding is that there are traditions that the apostles started that weren't recorded in scripture.
I can neither defend nor back up this teaching at this time.
Click to expand...

FYI: There were many letters written by the apostles and by various non-apostolic leaders (Elders) of the Early Church, too, that never became widely-accepted as the word of God by the Church. Some writings were written to deceive the Church - pseudepigrapha - created falsely under the name of an apostle or Early Church leader. In a very organic way, the Early Church sifted through all these circulating letters/writings and settled upon what the canon of NT Scripture was, discovering it, in a sense, as God communicated it through His servants, the apostles of Christ, and embracing what they wrote in a widespread way, copying their letters for distribution, and teaching Christian doctrine from them. And so, by the time of the Councils of Hippo Regius (393) and Carthage (397), the Church (that is, the community of born-again believers) had already generally settled upon the Canon of the New Testament which the councils simply formally recognized.

The Body of Believers, the Church, could have included these "traditions" you mentioned into the NT canon as it moved through the process of adopting for itself the constituents of that canon. But the Church didn't. This indicates to me the non-inspired nature of these traditions - as spiritually instructive and historically-illuminating as they may be. There are, of course, disqualifying characteristics of the apocryphal and pseudepigraphal works and other non-canonical writings that circulated through the Early Church:

- written under a false name.
- contradict and/or diverge from basic, orthodox Christian doctrine.
- never directly, explicitly quoted by Christ or the apostles (apocryphal writings).
- rejected by the Jews as canonical (apocryphal - aka deuterocanonical - writings).
- literary quality typical of myth and/or religious propaganda.

Like Roman Catholicism of today, the Pharisees of Christ's day had layered onto God's word a whole host of "traditions," too. They had a variety of man-made rituals, and doctrines, and rules that they not only held on par with divinely-inspired Scripture but were using to distort and corrupt God's word. Jesus explained:

Matthew 15:3-9 (NASB)
3 And He answered and said to them, "Why do you yourselves transgress the commandment of God for the sake of your tradition?
4 "For God said, 'Honor your father and mother,' and, 'He who speaks evil of father or mother is to be put to death.'
5 "But you say, 'Whoever says to his father or mother, "Whatever I have that would help you has been given to God,"
6 he is not to honor his father or his mother.' And by this you invalidated the word of God for the sake of your tradition.
7 "You hypocrites, rightly did Isaiah prophesy of you:
8 'This people honors me with their lips, but their heart is far away from me.'
9 'But in vain do they worship me, teaching as doctrines the precepts of men.'"

(See also: Matthew 23)

The confessional (1 Timothy 2:5), the celibacy of priests (1 Timothy 3:1-7), the worship of Mary (John 2:4; Acts 4:12; Matthew 28:19), praying to dead saints, baptismal regeneration (Romans 6:1-6; 10:9-10; 1 Corinthians 1:14-17), the "Vicar of Christ" doctrine (1 Timothy 2:5), calling a priest "Father" (Matthew 23:8-9) and relying entirely on a priest for one's understanding of God's word (John 14:26; 16:13; 1 Corinthians 2:10-16) are just a few of the obvious departures from Scripture that the RC church has enacted, officially or unofficially, in its traditions/beliefs/practices.

Many Protestant churches are little better, unfortunately, compromising powerfully with the World, liberalizing and migrating into all manner of blasphemous and/or sinful beliefs and practices. All you can do is find a church that is carefully-biblical, holy in its character, and lifting high the Person of Jesus Christ. Such churches are, these days, increasingly rare, I'm saddened to say.
 
Jesus Christ founded the new covenant church for the salvation of all men! (Jn 1:16-17) Christ is the truth! (Jn 14:6) Christ and his church are one!
(Acts 9:4 eph 4:4 eph 5:32)
The church is the pillar of truth
(1 Tim 3:15) that must teach all men (Matt 28:19) without error guided by the Holy Spirit
(Jn 16:13)

Thru the grace of God in the sanctification of souls applied in the seven sacraments!

Christ established the sacraments as the primary means of grace!

Sacramental life: Jn 1:16 And of his fulness have all we received, and grace for grace. Jn 10:10 The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly.

Christ founded the church for the salvation of souls!
Teach and sanctify all men unto eternal salvation!
Matt 28:19

Jesus Christ “did not” establish a church and send the Holy Spirit to cos spiritual blindness, anarchy, and chaos!
Protestants have changed the spirit of truth into a spirit of error, and the one, holy, catholic, and apostolic church the bride of Christ into a harlot of 30,000 sects .

And the church founded by Christ exercised authority before it write the New Testament and only the church can say what is scripture and pronounce authentic meaning of scripture. Thanks
 
Jethro Bodine said:
What is it that you think Catholicism provides that you want or think you need?

As a Catholic you will have to surrender any notion that you may presently have that you are saved. They believe that salvation occurs at the resurrection, not in this life. And so they work the works of faith they are sure will make it so they will be saved when Jesus returns. It's a works gospel religion.
Click to expand...
This is absolutely not true.
 
Jethro Bodine said:
What is it that you think Catholicism provides that you want or think you need?

As a Catholic you will have to surrender any notion that you may presently have that you are saved. They believe that salvation occurs at the resurrection, not in this life. And so they work the works of faith they are sure will make it so they will be saved when Jesus returns. It's a works gospel religion.
Click to expand...
I believe the NT has everything in it that we need to know to become saved.

But it leaves us with some questions if we really study it.

The only way to answer these questions is to read the early writings, I don't know any other way.
 
wondering said:
I believe the NT has everything in it that we need to know to become saved.

But it leaves us with some questions if we really study it.

The only way to answer these questions is to read the early writings, I don't know any other way.
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Read the old Testament. That's where so much of the inspiration of the NT writers comes from.

In times past I might have agreed with you about the early church fathers, but not anymore. I honestly believe all you need is the Bible, and of course the Holy Spirit, and fellowship with like minded believers. That is by God's design to promote unity in the body. No one teaches themselves, but each of us individually does have the anointing to distinguish truth from error. Philippians 3:15
 
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Jethro Bodine said:
Read the old Testament. That's where so much of the inspiration of the NT writers comes from.

In times past I might have agreed with you about the early church fathers, but not anymore. I honestly believe all you need is the Bible, and of course the Holy Spirit, and fellowship with like minded believers. That is by God's design to promote unity in the body. No one teaches themselves, but each of us individually does have the anointing to distinguish truth from error.
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This is funny!

I used to agree with you !
Now I don't anymore because I see too many of us disagreeing and we all believe we have the Holy Spirit dwelling within us with the ability to understand scripture.

I was speaking to a person this afternoon who understands the difficulty of translating the bible.
It went from Hebrew to Greek to Latin to English OR Hebrew to Greek to English (the NT).
So much was lost in translation although the gist of everything is there.
So much lost due to the changes in culture.

Who can know exactly what Paul meant in any given instance?
Jesus made everything very clear. I'm just beginning to feel like we should read Jesus' words and go by that.
Am I ignorant or what?
 
wondering said:
Now I don't anymore because I see too many of us disagreeing and we all believe we have the Holy Spirit dwelling within us with the ability to understand scripture.
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Well, I would just say, don't be so quick to judge the situation.
We're all learning. It takes time.
And, of course, there are those who really don't have the Holy Spirit in them.
In fact, I'm of the opinion that MOST people who identify with the Christian faith only have the 'water' part of the 'water and Spirit' birth Jesus talks about in John 3:5. That puts them at a very serious disadvantage in the discerning of truth. And makes them easy bait for denominations built around false theological beliefs. It's just where we're at in God's timeclock for the church.
 
wondering said:
Who can know exactly what Paul meant in any given instance?
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The Holy Spirit!

wondering said:
I was speaking to a person this afternoon who understands the difficulty of translating the bible.
It went from Hebrew to Greek to Latin to English OR Hebrew to Greek to English (the NT).
So much was lost in translation although the gist of everything is there.
So much lost due to the changes in culture.
Click to expand...
Can I be really honest with you?
Culture has very little influence on the understanding of scripture. Very little.
That's my honest opinion.

wondering said:
Who can know exactly what Paul meant in any given instance?
Jesus made everything very clear. I'm just beginning to feel like we should read Jesus' words and go by that.
Am I ignorant or what?
Click to expand...
That would not be good because the full revelation of 'righteousness apart from works' comes from and is expounded upon by Paul.
 
wondering said:
This is funny!

I used to agree with you !
Now I don't anymore because I see too many of us disagreeing and we all believe we have the Holy Spirit dwelling within us with the ability to understand scripture.

I was speaking to a person this afternoon who understands the difficulty of translating the bible.
It went from Hebrew to Greek to Latin to English OR Hebrew to Greek to English (the NT).
So much was lost in translation although the gist of everything is there.
So much lost due to the changes in culture.

Who can know exactly what Paul meant in any given instance?
Jesus made everything very clear. I'm just beginning to feel like we should read Jesus' words and go by that.
Am I ignorant or what?
Click to expand...
The Bible is translated from Greek or Hebrew for the most part to English. Those manuscripts are available. I am bilingual and while translations have challenges, it’s not impossible.
 
Jethro Bodine said:
The Holy Spirit!


Can I be really honest with you?
Culture has very little influence on the understanding of scripture. Very little.
That's my honest opinion.


That would not be good because the full revelation of 'righteousness apart from works' comes from and is expounded upon by Paul.
Click to expand...
Paul said exactly what Jesus said.
This ìs what I meant about the culture.
Hermeneutics takes culture into account.
In the west we bow only to royalty.
In the east we bow to anyone.
If I tell YOU that you don't understand something, you listen better.
If I tell an Italian he doesn't understand something, he gets insulted because I just called him stupid.

God said He hated Esau. Is this what He meant?
Does this conflict with LOVE YOUR NEIGHBORS? (I think so).

Maybe we make it too easy...maybe that's the problem.
 
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