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[Jethro Bodine]

...a thirst puppy dog person who's craving for your attention

Who thinks this?

Perhaps Voddie's theology about the penal nature of Christ's sacrifice is what caused him to create a sermon around his perception that some people think Jesus is sissified. And that prevents him from addressing the scriptures that paint Jesus as a rich romantic kinsman redeemer who pays the price of redemption for the one he longs for.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I don't know where from this thread or from the video where the inference of selfish human love can be brought up.
Unless it's an evasion attempt from the realization that God isn't this tender frail dandelion as many picture him to be.

I was addressing Tenchi's comments about love.

Can you point me to some sermons or something that present Jesus as some "frail dandelion"? I suspect that's Voddie's personal perception of the non-Reformed view of Jesus' sacrifice being a ransom paid to release prisoners from their sin.

 

[hawkman]

Yes, God "changed His mind," knowing from before the universe existed that He would.

Maybe , maybe not . I believe God in his interaction with mankind has a certain amount of fungibility . God with all his wisdom knew he would need it . When God created man he knew this . God knows where he can have a change of mind and where he can not as it would upset things that must come to pass later .

It doesn't matter what those who escaped God's wrath thought about Moses' idea. God knows and has always known what's best. All His ways are right and true. To say otherwise is to diminish God and perhaps to think of God in a way that is false.

I think God changes his mind for us because he loves us so much and would have it no other way .

In NO way do I seek to paint God in a diminished light .

Is the ability to change His own mind beyond God's grasp ?

 

[jasonc]

Oh it's taught in churches.

Don't call out the LGBT or speak out against abortion ..

 

[jasonc]

Oh it's taught in churches.

Don't call out the LGBT or speak out against abortion ..

I'm not suggesting every sermon but when necessary address it

 

[Highway54]

Feel free

Sure, of course one first starts on the path of Christianity by hearing about God or Christ, and usually one of the first things one learns in a relationship is the name of the other, I am Bob by the way. So if someone asked you who is God, what would be your answer Soldiers?

 

[Tenchi]

Maybe , maybe not . I believe God in his interaction with mankind has a certain amount of fungibility .

Well, if there was ever any time when God did not know everything, then His not God; for by definition, God is omniscient which is, by definition, to always know everything.

I think God changes his mind for us because he loves us so much and would have it no other way .

Okay. I think that God is "changing His mind" in the sense that He has thought better of some course of action and seen a superior way to do things, diminishes God, and suggests that He makes mistakes, which a perfect Being could not do.

In NO way do I seek to paint God in a diminished light .

I don't think you would do so purposefully. But the things you've suggested in this thread seem to me to do just that.

Is the ability to change His own mind beyond God's grasp ?

Nothing is beyond God's grasp, of course. But being perfect, God cannot really change His mind in the way that we understand doing so. Describing God doing this is just humans trying to explain what God did but from the only frame of reference that they understand, which is their own. Just because we change our minds in a certain way for a particular reason does not mean that God does so in exactly the same way when He relents in a course of action and does something else instead. Thinking that He does is to make God more human than He is and to reason from ourselves to God, which always results in a contortion, if not a diminishment, of God.

 

[Soldiers]

Who thinks this?

Something called progressive "christianity" and the "prosperity gospel".

Perhaps Voddie's theology about the penal nature of Christ's sacrifice is what caused him to create a sermon around his perception that some people think Jesus is sissified. And that prevents him from addressing the scriptures that paint Jesus as a rich romantic kinsman redeemer who pays the price of redemption for the one he longs for.

Not quite, he's addressing the culture who puts Jesus as thirst puppy dog eager to bless you so he can have your most precious attention. Nothing he mentioned about God's self-sufficieny, how he pointed out that God needs no one, and in Revelation 19, and the false imagery of Jesus was unbiblical. Your points are understood but are irrelevant to negating anything from his sermon. It's not his perception as he didn't make up Revelation 19 and he didn't invent God being self-sufficient, as God did in Exodus when he said "I AM WHO I AM".

Jesus does not need Jethro, Jesus does not need Soldiers, Jesus does not need no one, if we all die, Jesus will still be as self-sufficient as he was in the eternity before our creation. It's a human perspective to think God is so needy of us, because that doesn't highlight His love, it bolsters our pride.

If your offended by his sermon it's alright! But don't try to make it seem he is unbiblical because he doesn't align with your prefered method of seeing Jesus. And you mentioned no Scripture to back up your claims, Voddie did. What you're saying isn't invalid, but like I said it goes together. It's not a thirsty puppy dog who's longing to be your dormat and genie who paid his life out of love for you. It's a serious, Righteous, All-Powerful, All-Knowing, Ever-Present and Holy God who tolerates no sin who paid his life out of love for you. It's not a yearning person who can't live without who who forgives you because he wants you so bad he'll take any dirt just so you can stay with him, It's a Righteous Judge who's Holiness demands His Almighty Wrath to flood you to Gehenna. BUT, because of His GRACE....... He lets us live another day and cleanses us from all unrighteousness. That's Jesus. Stop straw-manning Voddie and take him for what God sent him to preach.

Now which entity's love will you value more? A desperate worshipper of you, or a All-Powerful Self-sufficient being who humbled himself to be lowly like you and save you from you're own destruction because that OmniPotent Omniscient Omnipresent Deity loves you.

 

[Soldiers]

Sure, of course one first starts on the path of Christianity by hearing about God or Christ, and usually one of the first things one learns in a relationship is the name of the other, I am Bob by the way. So if someone asked you who is God, what would be your answer Soldiers?

You just asked me the trillion dollar question.

First God is the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob [meaning He is the God of generations and doesn't stop being God because on generation dies off] (Genesis 28:13, Exodus 3:6) ,God is the Lord of Hosts or Armies [Everything] (Isaiah 54:5), God is the Creator (Genesis 2:4, Genesis 14:19), God is the Most High God (Genesis 14:18-20), God is God Almighty (Genesis 17:1), God is the Eternal God (Genesis 21:33, Psalm 90:2, Deuteronomy 33:27), God is the God of Bethel [Bethel meaning house of God] (Genesis 31:13), God declares "I AM WHO I AM" [meaning he is self-sufficient, Absolute, and Creator of all things] (Exodus 3:14), God is the Living Lord (2 Samuel 1:17), God is the God of Heaven (Ezra 1:2) the Mighty One, the GOD, the LORD (Psalm 50:1), God is the Holy One of Israel (Isaiah 1:4), God is beyond the Highest heaven (1 King 8:27, Psalm 68:3), God is the King of Ages (1 Timothy 1:17), God is abundant in strength and inexhaustible in understanding (Psalm 147:5), God is everywhere and it's impossible to hide from him (Psalm 139:7-12,15), God's thoughts outnumber the sand (Psalm 139:17-18), God ordained all our days before any of them existed (Psalm 139:16), God is unchanging and always stays the same (Malachi 3:6), God is unable to be compared to, Awesome and Splendorous (Isaiah 40:18,25 Exodus 15:11), God is the King who rules forever (Psalm 102:12), God is a jealous God (Exodus 34:14), God is love (1 John 4:8-10), God is Spirit - (John 4:24), And God hates all who do evil, no evil can stand in His presence (Psalm 5:4-5,

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Something called progressive "christianity" and the "prosperity gospel".

Not quite, he's addressing the culture who puts Jesus as thirst puppy dog eager to bless you so he can have your most precious attention. Nothing he mentioned about God's self-sufficieny, how he pointed out that God needs no one, and in Revelation 19, and the false imagery of Jesus was unbiblical. Your points are understood but are irrelevant to negating anything from his sermon. It's not his perception as he didn't make up Revelation 19 and he didn't invent God being self-sufficient, as God did in Exodus when he said "I AM WHO I AM".

Jesus does not need Jethro, Jesus does not need Soldiers, Jesus does not need no one, if we all die, Jesus will still be as self-sufficient as he was in the eternity before our creation. It's a human perspective to think God is so needy of us, because that doesn't highlight His love, it bolsters our pride.

If your offended by his sermon it's alright! But don't try to make it seem he is unbiblical because he doesn't align with your prefered method of seeing Jesus. And you mentioned no Scripture to back up your claims, Voddie did. What you're saying isn't invalid, but like I said it goes together. It's not a thirsty puppy dog who's longing to be your dormat and genie who paid his life out of love for you. It's a serious, Righteous, All-Powerful, All-Knowing, Ever-Present and Holy God who tolerates no sin who paid his life out of love for you. It's not a yearning person who can't live without who who forgives you because he wants you so bad he'll take any dirt just so you can stay with him, It's a Righteous Judge who's Holiness demands His Almighty Wrath to flood you to Gehenna. BUT, because of His GRACE....... He lets us live another day and cleanses us from all unrighteousness. That's Jesus. Stop straw-manning Voddie and take him for what God sent him to preach.

Now which entity's love will you value more? A desperate worshipper of you, or a All-Powerful Self-sufficient being who humbled himself to be lowly like you and save you from you're own destruction because that OmniPotent Omniscient Omnipresent Deity loves you.

I don't recall Voddie linking his sermon to the Santa Claus prosperity gospel. I saw Voddie inventing a strawman about some supposed doctrine in the church that makes Jesus sissified (in his opinion), totally ignoring the tenderhearted Jesus of the Bible who wept over Jerusalem.

He did not weep because he's a sissified romantic who can't live without us but because he is the kinsman redeemer in the romantic story of Boaz and Ruth. A picture of the ransom nature of Christ's relationship of Christ and the church that doesn't fit in well with Voddie's Reformed view of the Penal punishment model of salvation that he is defending by suggesting the romantic ransom model of salvation makes Jesus a sissified wimp who can't live without us.

 

[Soldiers]

I don't recall Voddie linking his sermon to the Santa Claus prosperity gospel. I saw Voddie inventing a strawman about some supposed doctrine in the church that makes Jesus sissified (in his opinion), totally ignoring the tenderhearted Jesus of the Bible who wept over Jerusalem.

He did not weep because he's a sissified romantic who can't live without us but because he is the kinsman redeemer in the romantic story of Boaz and Ruth. A picture of the ransom nature of Christ's relationship of Christ and the church that doesn't fit in well with Voddie's Reformed view of the Penal punishment model of salvation that he is defending by suggesting the romantic ransom model of salvation makes Jesus a sissified wimp who can't live without us.

You still don't have not a Scripture to back that up Mr. Bodine.

The Tenderhearted Jesus hung on that cross and was held up high
So that the Wrath of God was satisfied.

An innocent being who took the Righteous and Just Wrath of God so YOU and I can live, I think that's mighty tenderhearted enough. No sugar necessary.

And I do recall that he did address that the sissified Jesus is preach "all over the United States of America" at around 4:30-5:00? It was cut off but a little more during the sermon he mentions that all this Wrath we deserved, he should have slain us in our sleep but because of his grace, I see another day.

You're the one straw-manning Voddie as he is doing the due diligence of addressing a real problem among so called Christians and doing them a favor by not calling about specific churches or people. Jesus wept over them because he had presented them with the most miracles and they still rejected him.
And as Hebrew 10:26 says "For if we go on sinning deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a fearful expectation of judgment, and a fury of fire that will consume the adversaries."
He was weeping because they had known the Way but rejected it as it says in 2 Peter 2:21 "For it would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered to them.
He was weeping because he knew that "For the wages of sin is death but the free gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord (Romans 6:23)" and as it is sin to reject Righteousness, and they rejected the free gift, so he knew the impending death.
(I can give more if you are open to receive)
That's what Jesus was weeping about. Not some human emotion known that comes and goes.

Just because you don't want to accept God's self-sufficiency and ignore everything that contradicts your worldview doesn't invalidate it. You still can't give one Scripture other than your personal opinion and view that calls Voddie's actions as a sin. His sermon was for you my friend.

 

[hawkman]

Well, if there was ever any time when God did not know everything, then His not God; for by definition, God is omniscient which is, by definition, to always know everything.

Did God ever say he is omniscient ?

Okay. I think that God is "changing His mind" in the sense that He has thought better of some course of action and seen a superior way to do things, diminishes God, and suggests that He makes mistakes, which a perfect Being could not do.

Not a better course of action just a different course of action . Either course of action is fine as long as everything ends up the same to fulfill things to come . God is still perfect .

Nothing is beyond God's grasp, of course. But being perfect, God cannot really change His mind in the way that we understand doing so. Describing God doing this is just humans trying to explain what God did but from the only frame of reference that they understand, which is their own. Just because we change our minds in a certain way for a particular reason does not mean that God does so in exactly the same way when He relents in a course of action and does something else instead. Thinking that He does is to make God more human than He is and to reason from ourselves to God, which always results in a contortion, if not a diminishment, of God.

I do understand how God could change his mind . It is God hearing man's prayers and petitions and God having compassion and mercy on man . This not to the diminishment of God but to the glory of God !

 

[Soldiers]

Did God ever say he is omniscient ?

You believe God isn't omniscient? How can he be infinite and Eternal like asserted in Genesis 21:33, Psalm 90:2 and Deuteronomy 33:27 if he isn't? What an outrageous and ludicrous thing to assert my friend? All for the sake of trying to triumph in an argument so you look superior you throw God under the bus...

And the Bible did say he was omniscient in Psalm 147:5
Great is our Lord and mighty in power; his understanding has no limit.

Other versions:
ICB
Our Lord is great and very powerful. There is no limit to·what he knows
GNT.
Great and mighty is our Lord; his wisdom cannot be measured.
JUB
Great is our Lord and of great power; his intelligence is infinite.
NASB (& NASB 1995)
Great is our Lord and abundant in strength; His understanding is infinite.
NIRV
Great is our Lord. His power is mighty. There is no limit to his understanding.
ESV
Great is our Lord, and abundant in power; his understanding is beyond measure.


The Hebrew for understanding is the word tāḇûn, (pronounced taw-boon) which means: intelligence, understanding, insight.

I do understand how God could change his mind . It is God hearing man's prayers and petitions and God having compassion and mercy on man . This not to the diminishment of God but to the glory of God !

But that doesn't mean God changed his mind, He knew before the beginning our steps and ways and established them (Psalm 139:16). He also is unchanging (Malachi 3:6). So it's not that he changed his mind from one action to another, He already was going to take that route but like Moses for example, He knew Moses hearts was going to plead for the forgiveness of the Israelites sin if He said to Moses that He was going to destroy them (as God did when sin arose unrepentant). His original intent wasn't to change anything he knew Moses would say that and He did according to His foresight. Now why didn't he just spare them initially? Because we don't know but maybe God wanted to deepen Moses humility so he did so. Maybe God wanted to show Moses that He doesn't tolerate sin so he just didn't just initially forgive them without wiping them out, maybe God wanted for us to see today the gospel in that imagery. How do we see the gospel there. Hallellujah!

Moses represented Christ in that moment, his pleading for the wrath of God to fall on him instead of them is what Jesus did for us, He took God's wrath on us so we may be spared from death, as the Isrealites were. Moses was their intercessor, Jesus is our intercessor. So let us appreciate the gospel message in that story instead of trying to figure out the intricacies of the details.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

You still don't have not a Scripture to back that up Mr. Bodine.

Back what up????

I gave you the scriptures that show Jesus is not the tough, unfeeling guy preachers like Voddie make him out to be. You don't seem to get it that they do that to unfairly and unscripturally discredit the ransom view of salvation in the Bible that reformists resist in favor of their penal view of salvation.

 

[Soldiers]

Back what up????

I gave you the scriptures that show Jesus is not the tough, unfeeling guy preachers like Voddie make him out to be. You don't seem to get it that they do that to unfairly and unscripturally discredit the ransom view of salvation in the Bible that reformists resist in favor of their penal view of salvation.

1. Back up everything you said in all your posts on this thread. Still blurting personal opinions.

2. And no where did he say tough, unfeeling guy, you have just approached it from a classic, feel-good perspective that has closed his mind to anything against his opinions, instead of listening to the sermon for what it is you've inserted what you wanted to percieve into it. And how can you justify the massive Scriptoral evidence against your personal and baseless opinion of a cosmic Santa Claus Jesus. How is in unscripturally when he used Scripture and you haven't? You just don't want to accept Jesus as the parent who is holy but a parent you can run over. How can you say the 10+ Scriptures you've been given against you're claim. Read the book of Ezekiel, you know how much of God's wrath is poured out there? Read Revelation, read Matthew see the serious Jesus. Nothing you say has any Scripture basis and you keep ignoring that.

Yes Jesus judges and makes war, not hold lambs across his shoulders. If you want to continue with people like Craig Groeschel, Steven Furtick, and Joel Osteen, who preach this feel good gospel, be my guest, but the real Jesus shakes his head at those who mock the Spirit of Grace.

3. You are doing to me what you are doing to Voddie, basically watching yourself type instead of actually reading and addressing ALL of my comments. No one forced you to do anything, if you don't like Voddie, you don't like him, but He's a preacher for you.

2 Timothy 4:3 AMP

For the time will come when people will not tolerate sound doctrine and accurate instruction [that challenges them with God’s truth]; but wanting to have their ears tickled [with something pleasing], they will accumulate for themselves [many] teachers [one after another, chosen] to satisfy their own desires and to support the errors they hold,

 

[Jethro Bodine]

2. And no where did he say tough, unfeeling guy, you have just approached it from a classic, feel-good perspective that has closed his mind to anything against his opinions, instead of listening to the sermon for what it is you've inserted what you wanted to percieve into it.

Everybody knows Christ is the Judge that all of mankind will stand before at the end of the age.

What I resist is Voddie's characterization of those who also see the compassionate, longing savior. You have to understand he's engaging in this unfair characterization because he is bound by his official doctrinal position of Penal salvation to resist the Ransom model of salvation found in scripture.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

And how can you justify the massive Scriptoral evidence against your personal and baseless opinion of a cosmic Santa Claus Jesus.

Uh, let's get something straight right now. I don't subscribe to the Santa Clause Jesus model. What I resist is the narrow theology of the Penal salvation model that won't allow a compassionate kinsman redeemer Jesus who longs for fellowship with his enslaved creation in a kingdom and nation of liberated and righteous people.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

How is in unscripturally when he used Scripture and you haven't?

What is it about Matthew 23:37 and Luke 19:41-44 that you did not catch? Voddie didn't even bring them up! You know why? Because it nibbles away at his misguided theological rant about a supposedly sissified Jesus, even though those passages about a longing Jesus are right in the context of the strong Jesus who will judge the nations.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

You just don't want to accept Jesus as the parent who is holy but a parent you can run over.

Typical Christian thinking: Just because I see the so-called 'sissified' Jesus Voddie rails against in scripture I must not acknowledge that Jesus is also the judge of the world, right? Typical black and white thinking of Christians. Just because I see Jesus the Lamb in scripture doesn't mean I don't also see Jesus the Lion.

You need to understand why Voddie is railing as he is in the video. He's serving a very selfish reformed agenda.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Yes Jesus judges and makes war, not hold lambs across his shoulders.

You do not know Jesus this way, then. You only know him as judge.