Jethro Bodine
Member
Luther and us Protestants did not receive new revelation, but rather the revelation of "righteousness apart from works" found right in the pages of the Bible that the Catholic church has suppressed for centuries.
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Faith alone questions
- Thread starter donadams
- Start date
Trent
In what Manner it must be understood that the Impious is Justified by Faith, and freely?
But whereas the Apostle saith, that man is justified by faith, and freely,
those words must to be understood in that sense which the perpetual consent of the Catholic Church hath held and expressed; to wit, that we be therefore said to be justified by faith, because faith is the beginning of human salvation, the foundation, and the root of all justification; without which it is impossible to please God, and to come unto the fellowship of His sons; but we are therefore said to be justified freely, because none of those things which precede justification, whether faith or works, merit the grace itself of justification. For, if it be a grace, then is it no more by works, otherwise, as the same Apostle saith, grace is no more grace.
You said remember it not “do this” in remembrance of me!
Big difference
No it ain’t
The three fold new covenant priesthood: and priesthood in scripture is plural.
High priesthood: “Jesus Christ”
acts 10:14
heb 5:1
heb 8:1
heb 8:3
Ministerial priesthood: “apostles & their successors, and those they ordain” (low priests)
With priestly ministry:
Mk 3:14 “ordained”
Jn 15:16 “chosen” “ordained”
Jn 20:21 “sent by Christ with His authority”
Jn 20:23 “power to forgive sins”
Acts 1:8 “anointing with power”
acts 1:15-26 “ministry / bishop”
Acts 2:38-39 “administered sacraments”
acts 14:23 “ordained”
Acts 16:4 “ordained “
Rom 15:16 “minister / sanctify”
1 cor 9:14 “ordained”
1 Tim 2:7 “ordained”
1 Tim 3:1-2 “bishop”
1 Tim 4:14 “priest” “priestly ministry”
Phil 1:1 “bishops deacons”
James 5:14 “anointing with oil”
The ministerial priesthood acts in “the person of Christ” so it is Christ who acts thru them vicariously.
2 cor 2:10 Jn 15:5 eph 5:24
Royal priesthood: “baptized members of Jesus Christ”
1 pet 2:5-9
Christ reformed the mosaic covenant into the new and eternal covenant!
The new covenant was a reformation of the mosaic covenant so it has many similarities. Heb 9:10
Heb 10:9
Old Israel:
Ex 19:6
And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation. These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel.
New Israel:
1 pet 2:5-9
5 Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.
6 Wherefore also it is contained in the scripture, Behold, I lay in Sion a chief corner stone, elect, precious: and he that believeth on him shall not be confounded.
7 Unto you therefore which believe he is precious: but unto them which be disobedient, the stone which the builders disallowed, the same is made the head of the corner,
8 And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed.
9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light;
Gal 4:26 But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.
27 For it is written, Rejoice, thou barren that bearest not; break forth and cry, thou that travailest not: for the desolate hath many more children than she which hath an husband.
28 Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise.
Gal 6:16
And as many as walk according to this rule, peace be on them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God.
Apostles / bishops were ordained priests by Jesus Christ at the last supper: 1 cor 11:24-26
do this in memory of me. offer this in memory of me, the Passover was a sacrifice. Ex 12:27 1 cor 5:6-8
Worship:
Adoration: rev 7-12
Propitiatory reparation: Jn 1:29
rom 3:25 1 Jn 2:2 1 Jn 4:10
1 Jn 2:2 1 Jn 4:10
Thanksgiving: Phil 4:6
Petition: Phil 4:6
Spirit and truth:
John 4:24
God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.
Offering the eternal sacrifice of Christ for the salvation of all men!
There are three parts of the priesthood in the new covenant church:
In the order of Melchisedec,
Christ high priest:
His apostles low priests: or
Ministerial priesthood:
and the royal priesthood of Christians.
Christ is Eternal priest:
Heb 7:17 For he testifieth, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec.
Christ is High priest:
Heb 8:1 Now of the things which we have spoken this is the sum: We have such an high priest, who is set on the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens;
Low priests / priesthood:
There must be low priests in the same order for a high priest to be over them. And the word in scripture “priesthood” is plural.
Jn 20:21-23 apostles have authority to forgive sins.
Christians Required to Confess you’re sins.
1 John 1:9
If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
Lamb of God:
John 1:29
The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.
1 cor 5:7 …For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us:
8 Therefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, neither with the leaven of malice and wickedness; but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth.
Christ is Eternal priest:
Heb 7:17 For he testifieth, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec.
Christ is High priest:
Heb 8:1 Now of the things which we have spoken this is the sum: We have such an high priest, who is set on the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens;
Low priests / priesthood:
There must be low priests in the same order for a high priest to be over them. And the word in scripture “priesthood” is plural.
The holy sacrifice of Christ:
Holy sacrifice of Christ is offered eternally, the office of a priest is to offer sacrifice, Christ is eternal priest so He offers an eternal sacrifice! Both by the high priest and the low priesthood.
once for all:
once bloody on the cross and for all time unbloody sacrifice, pure offering or clean oblation.
Jesus Christ at the last supper ordained the apostles as priests in the order of melchisedec, to offer His eternal sacrifice as he commanded them; do this in memory of me.
Do this in remembrance of me!
Luke 22:19
And he took bread, and gave thanks, and brake it, and gave unto them, saying, This is my body which is given for you: this do in remembrance of me.
1 Corinthians 11:24
And when he had given thanks, he brake it, and said, Take, eat: this is my body, which is broken for you: this do in remembrance of me.
1 Corinthians 11:25
After the same manner also he took the cup, when he had supped, saying, this cup is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as oft as ye drink it, in remembrance of me.
Malachi 1:11
For from the rising of the sun even unto the going down of the same my name shall be great among the Gentiles; and in every place incense shall be offered unto my name, and a pure offering: for my name shall be great among the heathen, saith the Lord of hosts.
A pure offering:
A Clean oblation:
An Unbloody sacrifice:
No possibility for Protestants to offer worship to God in spirit and truth!
Both mosaic and the new Christian covenants have a:
Temple
Ark of the new covenant
Altar
Propitiatory sacrifice
Triple priesthood
With true worship, adoration, reparation, thanksgiving, and petition in the correct and true faith revealed from Christ, and inspired by His spirit and proposed by His holy divine new covenant church!
New covenant Temple: (the body of Christ) Jn 2:19
Ark of the new covenant: (Mary) Lk 1:35
Altar: (the cross) heb 13:10
New covenant Sacrifice: (the eternal propitiatory sacrifice of Christ)
Acts 20:28 Eph 2:13 heb 9
heb 10:19
Priesthood: (the new covenant priesthood of Christ) heb 7:17
High priest: (Christ is high priest) heb 8:1
Low priests (the order of melchisedec) heb 7:17
Golden censor with incense: rev 8:3
Verses about an altar before God in heaven!
Rev 6:9 8:3 9:13 11:1 14:18 16:7
Altar and temple in heaven but no sacrifice???
Jethro Bodine
Member
Lol, no difference.
When we observe Passover Communion we do it for the reason Jesus said. In remembrance of him and his work on the cross. There is no re-sacrificing of Christ as the Catholics do. They re-sacrifice Christ in their Communion service because they don't think the one time sacrifice of Jesus for justification is enough, but that a person has to be repeatedly justified by the sacrifice of Christ.
Jethro Bodine
Member
This is one thing I despise about the Catholic church. You can't tell what they actually believe by what they write because their writings can be so contradictory. We had a glaring example of that recently. I don't remember the topic but one non-Catholic poster quoted Catholic writing proving what he claimed the Catholic church believed and did, and then in rebuttal a Catholic quoted another Catholic writing proving what he claimed the Catholic church believed. It was quite comical. There is no excuse for this from a church that claims to be unified in doctrine and practice.
Jethro Bodine
Member
What is it about the scriptural references I gave that you do not understand?
Jethro Bodine
Member
Yes, but not to be declared righteous in a receiving of the righteousness of God.
Jethro Bodine
Member
The 'profiteth me nothing' that he is talking about is not in regard to receiving the righteousness that is from God.
If you'll just back up to the last verse of chapter 12, you'll see Paul is showing them a more excellent way. Instead of chasing after and glorying in gifts of the Spirit to have significance and greatness in Christ and in the church, the more excellent way is to secure that which the gifts of the Spirit help us to have; faith, hope, and love. The greatest of which is love. That is what 'profiteth' a person towards finding significance and meaning and greatness in the Christian faith. Gifts count for nothing in that regard. Being like Christ is what has value toward that end.
Jethro Bodine
Member
No where in Romans 4 does Paul talk about any deeds that make us righteous that the deeds of the law don't.
If you could show us in Romans 4 and other related passages where Paul says certain deeds with our faith make us righteous, just not the deeds of the law, you'd have a valid argument. But as it is, no such argument exists in Paul's writings.
He is very clear that it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, apart from and without your works; any works. For that is how Abraham, our example, was justified. Abraham is how we know Paul means faith all by itself to the exclusion of any and all works. For Abraham was reckoned righteousness by his faith, not by what he did (Genesis 15:6).
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Jethro Bodine
Member
Mary is blessed. But not in regard to all the mythological attributes the Catholic church has assigned to her and exalted her to that she does not actually have.
Jethro Bodine
Member
I've been explaining to you that the word 'justified' has two meanings in scripture.
It means to be declared righteous by God, as in "I absolve your guilt. You are now righteous." In other words, MADE righteous. This is the justification that Paul is talking about - becoming righteous through faith (Philippians 3:9).
It also means to be declared righteous by God as in "I see your faith in your deeds, therefore, I proclaim that you are a righteous person." In other words, SHOWN to have the righteousness that comes by faith. This is the justification that James is talking about - being shown to have the righteousness of faith, by your works (James 2:18).
Abraham is the example of these two justifications. First he became righteous when he believed God's promise about a Son, apart from his works. Then he was shown to be righteous when he acted in accordance with the righteousness of faith he had received, faithfully offering Isaac up on the altar believing that God would raise him up from the dead, showing that he had the righteousness of faith by doing that, not receiving it by doing that as the Catholics assert.
And that is how it is for us. The righteousness of God is imputed to us, apart from and without our works, when we believe the promise about Jesus. Then we show that we have that righteousness that comes by faith when we do faithful things in accordance with what that faith. And so a man is justified by both faith and works, and not faith alone (James 2:24). But the Catholics have mistakenly understood this to mean a man is made righteous by both his faith and his works.
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Do you believe this teaching?
Is that what you say?
Jethro Bodine
Member
At first it looks like Luther's justification by faith. But if you read it slowly and thoughtfully you can see it's a disguise to make one think that the Catholic church really does believe that you become righteous by faith without the aid of works. Which you acknowledge they don't believe.
No not re-sacrifice
His completed sacrifice is offered to the father
Are you going to be the way, through, and the life, or Jesus Christ!
Are you the pillar & ground of truth or the church?
Are you the light of the world or Christ and his apostles?
I does not say he “believed in his heart”???
Where did get that from?
Trent you disagree?
In what Manner it must be understood that the Impious is Justified by Faith, and freely?
But whereas the Apostle saith, that man is justified by faith, and freely,
those words must to be understood in that sense which the perpetual consent of the Catholic Church hath held and expressed; to wit, that we be therefore said to be justified by faith, because faith is the beginning of human salvation, the foundation, and the root of all justification; without which it is impossible to please God, and to come unto the fellowship of His sons; but we are therefore said to be justified freely, because none of those things which precede justification, whether faith or works, merit the grace itself of justification. For, if it be a grace, then is it no more by works, otherwise, as the same Apostle saith, grace is no more grace.