Faith alone questions

[Jethro Bodine]

Are you the pillar & ground of truth or the church?

I am the church, and, yes, I uphold the truth.

Are you the light of the world or Christ and his apostles?

I am the light of the world, more and more as I grow in the traits and fruit of the Spirit.

Why do you ask?

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I does not say he “believed in his heart”???
Where did get that from?

Paul said that's how a person is justified - by believing with the heart (Romans 10:10).

The Catholic church says you get justified by having faith and repeatedly performing various rituals and deeds.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Trent you disagree?

In what Manner it must be understood that the Impious is Justified by Faith, and freely?

But whereas the Apostle saith, that man is justified by faith, and freely,

those words must to be understood in that sense which the perpetual consent of the Catholic Church hath held and expressed; to wit, that we be therefore said to be justified by faith, because faith is the beginning of human salvation, the foundation, and the root of all justification; without which it is impossible to please God, and to come unto the fellowship of His sons; but we are therefore said to be justified freely, because none of those things which precede justification, whether faith or works, merit the grace itself of justification. For, if it be a grace, then is it no more by works, otherwise, as the same Apostle saith, grace is no more grace.

So are you saying the Catholic church agrees with Luther that a person is justified by faith 'alone' (your terminology, not mine)?

 

[donadams]

The 'profiteth me nothing' that he is talking about is not in regard to receiving the righteousness that is from God.

If you'll just back up to the last verse of chapter 12, you'll see Paul is showing them a more excellent way. Instead of chasing after and glorying in gifts of the Spirit to have significance and greatness in Christ and in the church, the more excellent way is to secure that which the gifts of the Spirit help us to have; faith, hope, and love. The greatest of which is love. That is what 'profiteth' a person towards finding significance and meaning and greatness in the Christian faith. Gifts count for nothing in that regard. Being like Christ is what has value toward that end.

We are not saved by “faith alone” cos we are not saved by faith at all but grace!

 

[donadams]

No where in Romans 4 does Paul talk about any deeds that make us righteous that the deeds of the law don't.

If you could show us in Romans 4 and other related passages where Paul says certain deeds with our faith make us righteous, just not the deeds of the law, you'd have a valid argument. But as it is, no such argument exists in Paul's writings.

He is very clear that it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, apart from and without your works; any works. For that is how Abraham, our example, was justified. Abraham is how we know Paul means faith all by itself to the exclusion of any and all works. For Abraham was reckoned righteousness by his faith, not by what he did (Genesis 15:6).

Still has to be applied to our souls with an outward sign
It’s not a Bible study it’s a covenant

 

[donadams]

Mary is blessed. But not in regard to all the mythological attributes the Catholic church has assigned to her and exalted her to that she does not actually have.

Then tell me why she is blessed not why she is not blessed

 

[Jethro Bodine]

We are not saved by “faith alone” cos we are not saved by faith at all but grace!

We are JUSTIFIED by faith 'alone' ('apart from works' is the correct terminology).
The justified person becomes a saved person in that moment of justification.

But, certainly, there will be no salvation from the wrath of God at the end of the age for the person who claims to have faith but has no works to validate his claim to having faith (James 2:14). But in no way do works MAKE you a saved person. Because works can not justify a person. Works can only show that you are a justified, saved person. Which is why Jesus will use the evidence of your deeds, or lack of deeds, to judge you as to whether you are a saved, justified person, or not.

 

[donadams]

At first it looks like Luther's justification by faith. But if you read it slowly and thoughtfully you can see it's a disguise to make one think that the Catholic church really does believe that you become righteous by faith without the aid of works. Which you acknowledge they don't believe.

No we are not made righteous by faith but by grace as it says

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Still has to be applied to our souls with an outward sign

No, 'apart from works' means justification happens when you believe in your heart apart from the doing of works. The Catholic assertion that 'apart from works' means you believe AND you do certain approved rituals and works to be justified is easily disproven by the fact that Abraham did not do some kind of approved rituals or works to be justified in Genesis 15:6. And Paul says he is our example of we, also, are justified.

It’s not a Bible study it’s a covenant

I have learned more and experienced God more in Bible studies than in any cold, dead, scripted religious service.

Cold dead religion salves the conscience and makes you feel good that you did something, but they are useless as far as their value to the Christian life and experience goes. Unless you just happen to have a high caliber, highly knowledgeable and spiritually gifted Protestant pastor sharing a sermon. But those are very far and few between. But at least you get that much out of one of those cold dead scripted services.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

No we are not made righteous by faith but by grace as it says

Grace THROUGH FAITH.

You receive the grace of God's absolution of your sin guilt, and the imputation of his righteousness THROUGH FAITH. And, yes, faith 'alone', as you like to say it, all by itself ('apart from works' is the correct terminology). Just as that happened for Abraham, our example of how we, too, are declared to be righteous with the imputation of God's righteousness apart from our works.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Then tell me why she is blessed not why she is not blessed

She had an extraordinary calling.
She of all women was chosen to bear the human body that Jesus changed his form into in order to enter the world.

That's a profound blessing. But it doesn't warrant the undue exaltation and glory and mythological beliefs that the Catholic church invented for her. And besides, every born again believer who hears and obeys the word of God shares in the blessing as mothers and brothers and sisters of the Lord. For some reason Catholics seem to avoid that truth clearly taught in our Bibles.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Still has to be applied to our souls with an outward sign
It’s not a Bible study it’s a covenant

For the life of me I'm still trying to figure out the connection you're making between the necessity for an outward sign, and it (whatever you're referring to) being a covenant, not a Bible study.

 

[donadams]

So are you saying the Catholic church agrees with Luther that a person is justified by faith 'alone' (your terminology, not mine)?

Justified by grace

 

[donadams]

We are JUSTIFIED by faith 'alone' ('apart from works' is the correct terminology).
The justified person becomes a saved person in that moment of justification.

But, certainly, there will be no salvation from the wrath of God at the end of the age for the person who claims to have faith but has no works to validate his claim to having faith (James 2:14). But in no way do works MAKE you a saved person. Because works can not justify a person. Works can only show that you are a justified, saved person. Which is why Jesus will use the evidence of your deeds, or lack of deeds, to judge you as to whether you are a saved, justified person, or not.

Denying scripture? Mk 13:13 Matt 24:13 many more

 

[donadams]

She had an extraordinary calling.
She of all women was chosen to bear the human body that Jesus changed his form into in order to enter the world.

That's a profound blessing. But it doesn't warrant the undue exaltation and glory and mythological beliefs that the Catholic church invented for her. And besides, every born again believer who hears and obeys the word of God shares in the blessing as mothers and brothers and sisters of the Lord. For some reason Catholics seem to avoid that truth clearly taught in our Bibles.

That’s referred to in Lk 1:45-48
What is Lk 1:28
Just be honest and say: “I don’t know”
What is referred to in Lk 1:49

 

[donadams]

For the life of me I'm still trying to figure out the connection you're making between the necessity for an outward sign, and it (whatever you're referring to) being a covenant, not a Bible study.

Covenants’s have requirements

 

[Jethro Bodine]

That’s referred to in Lk 1:45-48
What is Lk 1:28
Just be honest and say: “I don’t know”
What is referred to in Lk 1:49

I do know.
Mary had the blessing of a notable, high calling of service for God. I don't read anything into it beyond what is written as the Catholics do.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Covenants’s have requirements

Faith is the requirement to be in the New Covenant.

There are things God requires the people in covenant with him to do, but not for the reason of being made righteous. Doing works of righteousness is not how you become righteous. Believing with the heart does that (Romans 10:10).

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Denying scripture? Mk 13:13 Matt 24:13 many more

1 Corinthians 15:1-2 - presently saved.

You are the one denying scripture.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Justified by grace

...through faith, apart from works, like how Abraham was justified.