Call No Man Father

[Mr. G Lee]

Can you show me where in Catholic teaching Mary is said to be a female God? (Goddess).
Thanks.

Also, I have no idea what the above has to do with my post.
I was speaking about the CC being the FIRST church after Jesus ascended.

Calling our blessed by the grace of God sister in the lord. Mary. . . . the mother of God as queen of heaven .

Are you saying that is unheard of?

Those dying fathers as a law of men worshipped that was was passed down from the old testament fathers as oral traditions of dying mankind

The atheist men in full knowledge of thier atheist Jewish wives demanding his and hers deities. Just as today the same kind of fathers refusing to recognize the power of all things written in the law and prophet. (sola scriptura)They ignored the word of God (sola scriptura) and did whatever thier own mouth declared and saw no evil . . . . .

Blasphemy the abomination of dealation dying human form in the place of our invisible eternal God.

They teach her as a female deity alone received the fullness of grace the price of salvation the rest of the world a unknown remnant commanding mankind to suffer wonder, suffer wonder with no end of faith in sight . . The salvation of ones soul . . . . suffer. . suffer. . suffer. limbo limbo limbo .

Jerimiah 44: 15-17 Then all the men which knew that their wives had burned incense unto other gods, and all the women that stood by, a great multitude, even all the people that dwelt in the land of Egypt, in Pathros, answered Jeremiah, saying, As for the word that thou hast spoken unto us in the name of the Lord, we will not hearken unto thee. But we will certainly do whatsoever thing goeth forth out of our own mouth, to burn incense unto the queen of heaven, and to pour out drink offerings unto her, as we have done, we, and our fathers, our kings, and our princes, in the cities of Judah, and in the streets of Jerusalem: for then had we plenty of victuals, and were well, and saw no evil.

 

[GodsGrace]

Calling our blessed by the grace of God sister in the lord. Mary. . . . the mother of God as queen of heaven .

Are you saying that is unheard of?

Those dying fathers as a law of men worshipped that was was passed down from the old testament fathers as oral traditions of dying mankind

The atheist men in full knowledge of thier atheist Jewish wives demanding his and hers deities. Just as today the same kind of fathers refusing to recognize the power of all things written in the law and prophet. (sola scriptura)They ignored the word of God (sola scriptura) and did whatever thier own mouth declared and saw no evil . . . . .

Blasphemy the abomination of dealation dying human form in the place of our invisible eternal God.

They teach her as a female deity alone received the fullness of grace the price of salvation the rest of the world a unknown remnant commanding mankind to suffer wonder, suffer wonder with no end of faith in sight . . The salvation of ones soul . . . . suffer. . suffer. . suffer. limbo limbo limbo .

Jerimiah 44: 15-17 Then all the men which knew that their wives had burned incense unto other gods, and all the women that stood by, a great multitude, even all the people that dwelt in the land of Egypt, in Pathros, answered Jeremiah, saying, As for the word that thou hast spoken unto us in the name of the Lord, we will not hearken unto thee. But we will certainly do whatsoever thing goeth forth out of our own mouth, to burn incense unto the queen of heaven, and to pour out drink offerings unto her, as we have done, we, and our fathers, our kings, and our princes, in the cities of Judah, and in the streets of Jerusalem: for then had we plenty of victuals, and were well, and saw no evil.

What I asked you is to show WHERE it is said in Catholic theology that Mary is a GOD.
THIS is what you stated.

Anything else you post is irrelevant to my question.
Thanks.

 

[Mr. G Lee]

What I asked you is to show WHERE it is said in Catholic theology that Mary is a GOD.
THIS is what you stated.

Anything else you post is irrelevant to my question.
Thanks.

Hi thanks for the reply.

Ask one them of a Queen in heaven they named Mary after our blessed sister in the lord and why she alone received the fullness of grace the full cost of salvation while the rest of mankind a unknown remnant . . what do they say ?

Without the queen mother no need for Rosary as a false source of fatih

Queen of Heaven (Latin: Regina Caeli) is one of many Queen titles used of Mary, mother of Jesus. The title derived in part from the ancient Catholic teaching that Mary, at the end of her earthly life, was bodily and spiritually assumed into heaven, and that she is there honored as Queen.​

 

[Rodger]

Catholics are sometimes accused of contradicting scripture because they call their priests "Father" but Jesus said (Mt 23:9):
And call no man your father on earth, for you have one Father, who is in heaven.

But is there really a contradiction?
Jesus himself uses the term in later in the same chapter (vs 32.)
Jesus refers to Abraham as father in Lk 16:24, as does James in Jas 2:21.
Paul writes “For though you have countless guides in Christ, you do not have many fathers. For I became your father in Christ Jesus through the gospel.” (1Cor 4:15)
Matthew repeatedly refers to fathers in Matt 10:21-37, 15:4-6
John writes “I am writing to you, fathers, because you know him who is from the beginning.” (1Jn 2:13)
And there are more examples I could give.

So what is going on?
What is going on is the logical fallacy of equivocation in the use of “call” – using a word with two different meanings.
The Collins Concise Dictionary gives 28 [yes, twenty eight] different meanings to the verb “call”. Some of these are specialist terms (e.g. to “call” at poker)
Here are two of them
8. (tr) to name or style: they called the dog Rover.
9. (tr) designate: they called him a coward.
or as the Concise Oxford English Dictionary [less comprehensive with only 8 meanings] puts it:- “[3.] give a specified name to. address by a specified name, title, etc.”
Catholics address or give their priests a title of Father. But this is not the same meaning as Jesus was using in Mt 23:9

According to a Greek Orthodox priest, who is also a Greek translator, the word translated “call” in Mt 23:9 is misunderstood. I do not understand the technicalities of Greek but apparently the word used (kalesete) is not any of those used to imply a name or title, but means summon or call forth and is in the second person aorist active subjunctive plural form (and no, I don’t understand what that is!).

This would be the following from the Collins Concise Dictionary
1. to speak out or utter (words, sounds etc.) loudly so as to attract attention
2. (tr) to ask or order to come
or as the Concise Oxford English Dictionary put it:- “[1.] cry out to (someone) in order to summon them or attract their attention.”

The issue does not arise in the Greek because two different words are used.
In Mt 23:9 the Greek is kalesete.
But the Greek word for call in the sense of addressing someone is legeis as in this example (Lk 18:18-19)
And a ruler asked him, “Good Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?” And Jesus said to him, “Why do you call [legeis] me good? No one is good but God alone.

Here is an example using both meanings
As he walked by the Sea of Galilee, he saw two brothers, Simon who is called Peter and Andrew his brother, casting a net into the sea; for they were fishermen. And he said to them, "Follow me, and I will make you fishers of men." Immediately they left their nets and followed him. And going on from there he saw two other brothers, James the son of Zebedee and John his brother, in the boat with Zebedee their father, mending their nets, and he called them. (Mt 4:18-21)

Here are the two uses of called. The first meaning named or addressed (Simon who is called Peter) is legomenon (Strong 3004). The second is call in the sense of call out to (he called them) ekalesen (Strong 2564)

I appreciate your attempt to validate the Catholic practice of calling their clergy "Father".

I would only say that if we consider the CONTEXT of what Jesus said in In Matthew 23:1–12, , we would see that Jesus is denouncing the Jewish scribes and Pharisees for rejecting Him as their Messiah, in particular for their hypocrisy in elevating themselves above others with titles such as “teacher” and “master.”

You see upon deeper study that the Jewish teachers affected those titles because they supposed that a teacher formed the man or gave him real life. They sought, therefore, to be called “father,” as if they were the source of truth rather than God. That right there is the key for the context!!!

Jesus Christ taught that the source of all life and truth is God, and no one ought to seek or receive a title that properly belongs to Him. No one should be as revered as God is who is our heavenly Father.

 

[Rodger]

Hi thanks for the reply.

Ask one them of a Queen in heaven they named Mary after our blessed sister in the lord and why she alone received the fullness of grace the full cost of salvation while the rest of mankind a unknown remnant . . what do they say ?

Without the queen mother no need for Rosary as a false source of fatih

Queen of Heaven (Latin: Regina Caeli) is one of many Queen titles used of Mary, mother of Jesus. The title derived in part from the ancient Catholic teaching that Mary, at the end of her earthly life, was bodily and spiritually assumed into heaven, and that she is there honored as Queen.​

A study of the Old Test. reveals that the term......"Queen of Heaven" was used to identify the wife of Nimrod in Genesis whose name was Semiramis.

Jeremiah 7:18......
" The children gather wood, the fathers kindle fire, and the women knead dough, to make cakes for the queen of heaven. And they pour out drink offerings to other gods, to provoke me to anger."

The second passage that refers to the queen of heaven is Jeremiah 44:17-25, where Jeremiah is giving the people the word of the Lord which God has spoken to him. He reminds the people that their disobedience and idolatry has caused the Lord to be very angry with them and to punish them with calamity. Jeremiah warns them that greater punishments await if they do not repent. They reply that they have no intentions of giving up their worship of idols, promising to continue pouring out drink offerings to the queen of heaven, Ashtoreth, and even going so far as to credit her with the peace and prosperity they once enjoyed because of God’s grace and mercy...........sound familiar to today???????

 

[Rodger]

When I read the scripture it seems to point to God being the Holy Father and Christ being the High Priest and mediator between God and man, and we are in Christ's Spiritual house and Christs Holy Priesthood.

So I don't understand how correct me if I'm wrong, the pope is called the Holy Father at the top and sits on his glorious throne, and the Priests are the mediators between God and man who people repent and ask forgiveness to and who prays for them.

You see my friend......The Catholic religion considers the Pope to be the "VICAR" of Christ.

The term "Vicar" comes from the Latin word vicarius, which means "instead of."

So then, in the RCC, the vicar is the representative of a higher-ranking official, who was in fact Jesus Christ and he has all of the same authority and power that that official has. Calling the pope the "Vicar of Christ" implies that he has the same power and authority that Christ had over the church.

Now, you/we can discuss this all day long, but this is an ingrained Catholic tradition that will not be changed by talking about it.

 

[Rodger]

What I asked you is to show WHERE it is said in Catholic theology that Mary is a GOD.
THIS is what you stated.

Anything else you post is irrelevant to my question.
Thanks.

Agreed!

However my dear friend, the Catholic believers accept Catholic "traditions" as a higher level of authority than the actual Word of God and that is the problem when it comes to what they do and what they believe.

Actually, the Catholic religion is not Biblical Christianity but is a religion in and of itself.
(I hope that does not get me banned or a warning. If it not acceptable please delete it).

 

[Rodger]

The point of my post was not about spiritual or biological fathers.
It was about the meanings of the word "call".

Critics of Catholics point to Mt 23:9
And call no man your father on earth, for you have one Father, who is in heaven.
But, they say, Catholics call their priests father in contradiction to what Jesus commanded.

As I pointed out this accusation is false because the word "call" is being used with two different meanings. That is the error of equivocation.

If I put it this way you can see the error
Jesus said And call no man your father on earth, for you have one Father, who is in heaven.
Catholics address their priests as father.
No contradiction.
Do you get it now?

Yes....I get it. The Catholic church believe that it can change the literal words of God to make it say what they want it to say.

Here in the South we call that the ....."Burger King Theology, YOU can have it your way"!

 

[Rodger]

I did read it--Jesus was speaking about spiritual teachers--do not call any man Father--No Man fathered a single spiritual thing. Where as some men Fathered certain other aspects of life and Jesus was not referring to those, just spiritual teachers.

Kiwi, I understand that you are very fond of Catholic traditions. I can not help you with that.

What I can do however is quote the Bible Scriptures for you. You believe and accept the Pope as the "Vicar" of Christ which means he is IN PLACE OF Christ.

Now then, I encourge you to consider that the only biblical “Vicar of Christ” is the Holy Spirit.

John 14:26 declares,..........
“But the Counselor, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you.”

Then in John 14:16-18 proclaims, ........
“And I will ask the Father, and He will give you another Counselor to be with you forever — the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept Him, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him. But you know Him, for He lives with you and will be in you. I will not leave you as orphans; I will come to you.”

The Holy Spirit is Christ’s only “replacement” on the earth. The Holy Spirit is our Counselor, Teacher (John 14:26), and guide into all truth (John 16:13).

 

[Iconoclast]

Catholics are sometimes accused of contradicting scripture because they call their priests "Father" but Jesus said (Mt 23:9):
And call no man your father on earth, for you have one Father, who is in heaven.

But is there really a contradiction?
Jesus himself uses the term in later in the same chapter (vs 32.)
Jesus refers to Abraham as father in Lk 16:24, as does James in Jas 2:21.
Paul writes “For though you have countless guides in Christ, you do not have many fathers. For I became your father in Christ Jesus through the gospel.” (1Cor 4:15)
Matthew repeatedly refers to fathers in Matt 10:21-37, 15:4-6
John writes “I am writing to you, fathers, because you know him who is from the beginning.” (1Jn 2:13)
And there are more examples I could give.

So what is going on?
What is going on is the logical fallacy of equivocation in the use of “call” – using a word with two different meanings.
The Collins Concise Dictionary gives 28 [yes, twenty eight] different meanings to the verb “call”. Some of these are specialist terms (e.g. to “call” at poker)
Here are two of them
8. (tr) to name or style: they called the dog Rover.
9. (tr) designate: they called him a coward.
or as the Concise Oxford English Dictionary [less comprehensive with only 8 meanings] puts it:- “[3.] give a specified name to. address by a specified name, title, etc.”
Catholics address or give their priests a title of Father. But this is not the same meaning as Jesus was using in Mt 23:9

According to a Greek Orthodox priest, who is also a Greek translator, the word translated “call” in Mt 23:9 is misunderstood. I do not understand the technicalities of Greek but apparently the word used (kalesete) is not any of those used to imply a name or title, but means summon or call forth and is in the second person aorist active subjunctive plural form (and no, I don’t understand what that is!).

This would be the following from the Collins Concise Dictionary
1. to speak out or utter (words, sounds etc.) loudly so as to attract attention
2. (tr) to ask or order to come
or as the Concise Oxford English Dictionary put it:- “[1.] cry out to (someone) in order to summon them or attract their attention.”

The issue does not arise in the Greek because two different words are used.
In Mt 23:9 the Greek is kalesete.
But the Greek word for call in the sense of addressing someone is legeis as in this example (Lk 18:18-19)
And a ruler asked him, “Good Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?” And Jesus said to him, “Why do you call [legeis] me good? No one is good but God alone.

Here is an example using both meanings
As he walked by the Sea of Galilee, he saw two brothers, Simon who is called Peter and Andrew his brother, casting a net into the sea; for they were fishermen. And he said to them, "Follow me, and I will make you fishers of men." Immediately they left their nets and followed him. And going on from there he saw two other brothers, James the son of Zebedee and John his brother, in the boat with Zebedee their father, mending their nets, and he called them. (Mt 4:18-21)

Here are the two uses of called. The first meaning named or addressed (Simon who is called Peter) is legomenon (Strong 3004). The second is call in the sense of call out to (he called them) ekalesen (Strong 2564)

All believers a re priests in the NT. There is no special class of priest as Christ has completed the sacrifice that we need.
To call a priest father, is nonsense.

 

[Rodger]

All believers a re priests in the NT. There is no special class of priest as Christ has completed the sacrifice that we need.
To call a priest father, is nonsense.

Agreed.

Job 32:21
“Let me now be partial to no one,
Nor flatter any man.

 

[Corn Pop]

Call no man father. Depends on the situation. Abraham was called father because Abraham is the jews literal ancestor and linage as the word can be used for an ancestor, thats why Abraham is called father in scripture because the jews come from Abraham seed, literal ancestor and elder, but i dont know why people would call a priest or the pope or some random person father if they not of there seed. Only God would be called Father in those situations because God is father of all.

Can be spiritual brothers and sisters in Christ but there is only 1 Father in Christ.

 

[GodsGrace]

Agreed!

However my dear friend, the Catholic believers accept Catholic "traditions" as a higher level of authority than the actual Word of God and that is the problem when it comes to what they do and what they believe.

Actually, the Catholic religion is not Biblical Christianity but is a religion in and of itself.
(I hope that does not get me banned or a warning. If it not acceptable please delete it).

Rodger, you can post your belief here and it will not be censored....
our requirement is that you state it with love and respect as a Christian should.

I have to leave because it's past 1:30 am --- I will be replying tomorrow,
however, could you please tell me what you mean by "traditions".

Thanks.

 

[Corn Pop]

Im happy to say that Mary is the mother of Jesus, but i wouldnt go as far as shes the Mother or Queen of Heaven.

If God himself is the King of Heaven and the Father of Heven then calling Mary the Queen of heaven or the Mother of heaven would basically be equal to God or challenging God for his throne.

Yoy can only have a King or a Queen. I dont think Mary born of man is the author of life who always was, so i think God the King wins.

 

[Corn Pop]

There is heaps of prayers to the queen of heaven in catholic writtings. The scripture clearly calls the name queen of heaven another god so i dont understsnd why that phrase would be used in prayer.s and writtings.

Jeremiah
"The children gather wood, the fathers light the fire, and the women knead the dough and make cakes to offer to the Queen of Heaven. They pour out drink offerings to other gods..

I thought prayers are to The King of Heaven through Christ.

Just pointing it out, and others may disagree but thats just how i see it.

 

[Corn Pop]

The people were praising and giving offerings to baal through jezebel and she is called the the queen of heaven according to Jereimiah, so im not sure why anyone would want to call the blessed virgin Mary the queen of heaven.

 

[GodsGrace]

You see my friend......The Catholic religion considers the Pope to be the "VICAR" of Christ.

The term "Vicar" comes from the Latin word vicarius, which means "instead of."

So then, in the RCC, the vicar is the representative of a higher-ranking official, who was in fact Jesus Christ and he has all of the same authority and power that that official has. Calling the pope the "Vicar of Christ" implies that he has the same power and authority that Christ had over the church.

Now, you/we can discuss this all day long, but this is an ingrained Catholic tradition that will not be changed by talking about it.

Just fell on the above Rodger.
Could you please begin to post the source of your information?
It would be appreciated.

Here's what the Vicar of Christ means...

vic·ar ˈvik-ər. 1. : a minister in charge of a church who serves under the authority of another minister. 2. : a church official who takes the place of or represents a higher official.25 apr 2024

1. The Pope serves under the authority of God or Jesus.
2. He represents a higher official....God/Jesus.

I put Jesus in the explanation because Jesus gave the keys to HIS KINGDOM to Peter.
Matthew 16:19

 

[GodsGrace]

Agreed!

However my dear friend, the Catholic believers accept Catholic "traditions" as a higher level of authority than the actual Word of God and that is the problem when it comes to what they do and what they believe.

Actually, the Catholic religion is not Biblical Christianity but is a religion in and of itself.
(I hope that does not get me banned or a warning. If it not acceptable please delete it).

I don't know if you replied to my post of yesterday asking you what you mean by "traditions".

And, you agreed with me about something,
but
you didn't post the source for your comment that Mary is a GOD.

Please do so.

 

[donadams]

Calling our blessed by the grace of God sister in the lord. Mary. . . . the mother of God as queen of heaven .

Are you saying that is unheard of?

Those dying fathers as a law of men worshipped that was was passed down from the old testament fathers as oral traditions of dying mankind

The atheist men in full knowledge of thier atheist Jewish wives demanding his and hers deities. Just as today the same kind of fathers refusing to recognize the power of all things written in the law and prophet. (sola scriptura)They ignored the word of God (sola scriptura) and did whatever thier own mouth declared and saw no evil . . . . .

Blasphemy the abomination of dealation dying human form in the place of our invisible eternal God.

They teach her as a female deity alone received the fullness of grace the price of salvation the rest of the world a unknown remnant commanding mankind to suffer wonder, suffer wonder with no end of faith in sight . . The salvation of ones soul . . . . suffer. . suffer. . suffer. limbo limbo limbo .

Jerimiah 44: 15-17 Then all the men which knew that their wives had burned incense unto other gods, and all the women that stood by, a great multitude, even all the people that dwelt in the land of Egypt, in Pathros, answered Jeremiah, saying, As for the word that thou hast spoken unto us in the name of the Lord, we will not hearken unto thee. But we will certainly do whatsoever thing goeth forth out of our own mouth, to burn incense unto the queen of heaven, and to pour out drink offerings unto her, as we have done, we, and our fathers, our kings, and our princes, in the cities of Judah, and in the streets of Jerusalem: for then had we plenty of victuals, and were well, and saw no evil.

Since when is motherhood or Queenship a divine attribute?
Thks

 

[donadams]

I appreciate your attempt to validate the Catholic practice of calling their clergy "Father".

I would only say that if we consider the CONTEXT of what Jesus said in In Matthew 23:1–12, , we would see that Jesus is denouncing the Jewish scribes and Pharisees for rejecting Him as their Messiah, in particular for their hypocrisy in elevating themselves above others with titles such as “teacher” and “master.”

You see upon deeper study that the Jewish teachers affected those titles because they supposed that a teacher formed the man or gave him real life. They sought, therefore, to be called “father,” as if they were the source of truth rather than God. That right there is the key for the context!!!

Jesus Christ taught that the source of all life and truth is God, and no one ought to seek or receive a title that properly belongs to Him. No one should be as revered as God is who is our heavenly Father.

Is it absolutely forbidden to call men father? Thks