Annihilationism, do the Wicked Perish?

[Alfred Persson]

All you're showing me confirmation bias. Of course they all read the same. They all believe the same thing.

If I get 50 people who believe 5+5=30 and the all write it in a book it doesn't mean it's correct. It only means they all believe the same thing.

The fact that there was no punctuation shows that the passage can be understood either way. Thus it cannot be claimed accurately that your understanding is the correct one.

Again, if you'd stop trying to prove everyone wrong and listen you might learn a few things.

Unfortunately for your argument, translations are done by committees that weed out denominational bias. They insert commas where they are needed to give the sense in English. All those translations prove, of the two possible ways to read the text, the promise being fulfilled the day they both died is clearly correct.

And I'm proving you wrong, not everyone.

 

[Butch5]

Unfortunately for your argument, translations are done by committees that weed out denominational bias. They insert commas where they are needed to give the sense in English. All those translations prove, of the two possible ways to read the text, the promise being fulfilled the day they both died, is clearly correct.

And I'm proving you wrong, not everyone.

Ignoring evidence against your position is a fallacy known as Cherry Picking.

You've not shown me to be wrong as you've still not established you premise. Our arguments are in opposition to one another and therefore one of them must be wrong. I've established the premise for my argument and that premise has not been shown to be Invalid.

 

[Alfred Persson]

Ignoring evidence against your position is a fallacy known as Cherry Picking.

You've not shown me to be wrong as you've still not established you premise. Our arguments are in opposition to one another and therefore one of them must be wrong. I've established the premise for my argument and that premise has not been shown to be Invalid.

Who is cherry picking? Where are the versions that agree with you? New World Translation by Jehovah's Witnesses?

I didn't cherry pick, I copied pasted the versions in BibleWorks 10. All of them. Only THE ROTHERHAM BIBLE put the comma as you wanted, and reading the verse still communicated the promise would be fulfilled that very day they died:

And he said unto him--Verily, I say unto thee this day: With me, shalt thou be in Paradise. (Lk. 23:43 ROT)

You are wrong. I proved it in every post.

As I just did again.

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

Terminology is defined precisely so everyone can discuss the subject on the same page. Giving words a new definition isn't acceptable in scholarly circles. You'd be laughed off the stage if you tried to explain such peculiar ideas using words only you know the definition of.

Could we at least agree on what is plainly stated in the bible? Could that be the same page? It is written that "God (the Father) is not a man" in Num. 23:19, and "God (the Father) is spirit" in Jn. 4:24, why do you insist that He be a person as in the "three distinct persons"? Jesus is of dual nature of man and God, God is of sole nature of God, if both are "persons", is a person defined as one with dual nature or sole nature? Isn't this personhood a word "only you know the definition of"?

Your confusion extends to what I believe. I do not deny Jesus came in the flesh, I explained the incarnation to you just a few posts ago. The Christian Orthodox Trinitarian view.

I hold the same view, except some doubts about the definition of "person", as I explained above.

I would charge you with "heresy" but that requires a level of knowing the truth and deviating from it. You simply never learned what Christians believe. You skimmed through a couple of books and believed you understood it. You didn't.

Whatever Christians believe must fit into a framework of worldview with four essential components: Creation, Fall, Salvation and Glorification, in that order. Any teaching that deviates from this worldview is questionable.

 

[Alfred Persson]

Could we at least agree on what is plainly stated in the bible? Could that be the same page? It is written that "God (the Father) is not a man" in Num. 23:19, and "God (the Father) is spirit" in Jn. 4:24, why do you insist that He be a person as in the "three distinct persons"? Jesus is of dual nature of man and God, God is of sole nature of God, if both are "persons", is a person defined as one with dual nature or sole nature? Isn't this personhood a word "only you know the definition of"?

I hold the same view, except some doubts about the definition of "person", as I explained above.

Whatever Christians believe must fit into a framework of worldview with four essential components: Creation, Fall, Salvation and Glorification, in that order. Any teaching that deviates from this worldview is questionable.

God is not a man, God is Spirit, the Son of God added to His deity human nature via the virgin birth. Jesus told us to make disciples who realize in the One Name of God are three equal persons:

19 "Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,
20 "teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age." Amen. (Matt. 28:19-1:1 NKJ)

You don't know that, therefore you can't be one of His disciples.

I suggest you get a book on the Christian doctrine of the Holy Trinity. Perhaps then you will be able to discuss it intelligently. Perhaps then, you can become a disciple of Christ.

 

[Alfred Persson]

Could we at least agree on what is plainly stated in the bible? Could that be the same page? It is written that "God (the Father) is not a man" in Num. 23:19, and "God (the Father) is spirit" in Jn. 4:24, why do you insist that He be a person as in the "three distinct persons"? Jesus is of dual nature of man and God, God is of sole nature of God, if both are "persons", is a person defined as one with dual nature or sole nature? Isn't this personhood a word "only you know the definition of"?

I hold the same view, except some doubts about the definition of "person", as I explained above.

Whatever Christians believe must fit into a framework of worldview with four essential components: Creation, Fall, Salvation and Glorification, in that order. Any teaching that deviates from this worldview is questionable.

Prof. Berkoff has an excellent section on the Holy Trinity, and its free:

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www.apuritansmind.com

 

[Barney Bright]

Incorrect, that makes Jesus a liar. He said "Today you will be with me in Paradise".

42 Then he said to Jesus, "Lord, remember me when You come into Your kingdom."
43 And Jesus said to him, "Assuredly, I say to you, today you will be with Me in Paradise." (Lk. 23:42-43 NKJ)

Jesus didn't say: "In a couple of thousand years, when I set up my millennial kingdom, you will be with me. Until then you will be in Hades."

I'm certain that wouldn't have comforted the thief at all.

When Jesus died his human soul went into Hades and preached to the spirits in Prison (1 Pet. 3:18-22).

Hades is not paradise.

Therefore, the thief went to third heaven (paradise 1 Cor. 12:2-4) where the Infinite Almighty Son of God Jesus is.

Corroborating this, Jesus did NOT say:

"Today you will be with me in Hades"

I'm certain that wouldn't have comforted the thief at all.

I agree Hades is not paradise, never said it was. I agree that Jesus went to Hades when he died, but what I don't agree with is that Jesus preached to these spirits in prison while he was in Hades. So I disagree when you say, "When Jesus died his human soul went into Hades and preached to the spirits in Prison (1 Pet. 3:18-22)."
Jesus was dead for parts of three days when he was in Hades. So I disagree that he preached to those spirits while he was dead in Hades for parts of three days. Dead means you can't think, speak, hear, see, etc.
What I believe 1 Peter 3:18 -22 is teaching when it says, "he was put to death in the flesh" it means Jesus was put to death as a human being, and so his human body was sacrificed, and when it says, "but was made alive in the spirit," this is talking about when Jesus is resurrected, as a life giving spirit who was given immortality and inherited incorruption. It was in this state, as a life giving spirit who has immortality and incorruption that Jesus preached to the spirits in prison. But Jesus had been resurrected out of Hades so when he preached to the spirits in prison he wasn't in Hades.

 

[Alfred Persson]

I agree Hades is not paradise, never said it was. I agree that Jesus went to Hades when he died, but what I don't agree with is that Jesus preached to these spirits in prison while he was in Hades. So I disagree when you say, "When Jesus died his human soul went into Hades and preached to the spirits in Prison (1 Pet. 3:18-22)."
Jesus was dead for parts of three days when he was in Hades. So I disagree that he preached to those spirits while he was dead in Hades for parts of three days. Dead means you can't think, speak, hear, see, etc.
What I believe 1 Peter 3:18 -22 is teaching when it says, "he was put to death in the flesh" it means Jesus was put to death as a human being, and so his human body was sacrificed, and when it says, "but was made alive in the spirit," this is talking about when Jesus is resurrected, as a life giving spirit who was given immortality and inherited incorruption. It was in this state, as a life giving spirit who has immortality and incorruption that Jesus preached to the spirits in prison. But Jesus had been resurrected out of Hades so when he preached to the spirits in prison he wasn't in Hades.

18 For Christ also suffered once for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive by the Spirit,
19 by whom also He went and preached to the spirits in prison,
20 who formerly were disobedient (544 ἀπειθέω apeitheo), when once the Divine longsuffering waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight souls, were saved through water.
21 There is also an antitype which now saves us-- baptism (not the removal of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God), through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,
22 who has gone into heaven and is at the right hand of God, angels and authorities and powers having been made subject to Him. (1 Pet. 3:20-4:1 NKJ)

"Made alive by the Spirit" refers to Jesus' human soul being quickened with life because at death the human spirit animating the soul "returns to God", so it had to be replaced so Jesus wouldn't be a shade like all the human dead.

Once quickened, enveloped in the Holy Spirit, he went and preached to the spirits in prison since the days of Noah, who couldn't believe Noah's preaching God would forgive them, because they were the dead spirits of the "men of renown" hybrid angel human spirits.

But they responded to Christ's preaching with the answer of a good conscience just like the church does, so Peter saw this event as the antitype of Baptism, Christians are buried with Christ and then rise with Him as new creatures:

4 Therefore we were buried with Him through baptism into death, that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
5 For if we have been united together in the likeness of His death, certainly we also shall be in the likeness of His resurrection,
(Rom. 6:4-5 NKJ)

12 buried with Him in baptism, in which you also were raised with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead.
13 And you, being dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He has made alive together with Him, having forgiven you all trespasses, (Col. 2:12-13 NKJ)

Then, after they repented and believed His preaching Christ ascended from the depths of the earth with these former captives in His train, bringing them to third heaven with all the other Christian dead.

They were a special case, so Christ made a special trip to them. Their refusal to believe God would forgive their mixed angel-human DNA was reasonable. In the LAW we read:

`You shall keep My statutes. You shall not let your livestock breed with another kind. You shall not sow your field with mixed seed. Nor shall a garment of mixed linen and wool come upon you. (Lev. 19:19 NKJ)

So they wanted to believe, but knowing God (no doubt from their angel fathers the sons of God Gen. 6:2), they were "disobedient" because they were "disbelieving". They were formerly disbelieving but now believed Christ and gave the answer of a good conscience towards God just like the Church does to Christ's preaching:

544 ἀπειθέω apeitheo {ap-i-theh'-o}
Meaning: 1) not to allow one's self to be persuaded 1a) to refuse or withhold belief 1b) to refuse belief and obedience 2) not to comply with

20 who formerly were disobedient (544 ἀπειθέω apeitheo), when once the Divine longsuffering waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight souls, were saved through water.
21 There is also an antitype which now saves us-- baptism (not the removal of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God), through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,

Therefore, this text totally refutes your theory Christ didn't preach in Hades.

 

[Barney Bright]

18 For Christ also suffered once for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive by the Spirit,
19 by whom also He went and preached to the spirits in prison,
20 who formerly were disobedient (544 ἀπειθέω apeitheo), when once the Divine longsuffering waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight souls, were saved through water.
21 There is also an antitype which now saves us-- baptism (not the removal of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God), through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,
22 who has gone into heaven and is at the right hand of God, angels and authorities and powers having been made subject to Him. (1 Pet. 3:20-4:1 NKJ)

"Made alive by the Spirit" refers to Jesus' human soul being quickened with life because at death the human spirit animating the soul "returns to God", so it had to be replaced so Jesus wouldn't be a shade like all the human dead.

Once quickened, enveloped in the Holy Spirit, he went and preached to the spirits in prison since the days of Noah, who couldn't believe Noah's preaching God would forgive them, because they were the dead spirits of the "men of renown" hybrid angel human spirits.

But they responded to Christ's preaching with the answer of a good conscience just like the church does, so Peter saw this event as the antitype of Baptism, Christians are buried with Christ and then rise with Him as new creatures:

4 Therefore we were buried with Him through baptism into death, that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
5 For if we have been united together in the likeness of His death, certainly we also shall be in the likeness of His resurrection,
(Rom. 6:4-5 NKJ)

12 buried with Him in baptism, in which you also were raised with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead.
13 And you, being dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He has made alive together with Him, having forgiven you all trespasses, (Col. 2:12-13 NKJ)

Then, after they repented and believed His preaching Christ ascended from the depths of the earth with these former captives in His train, bringing them to third heaven with all the other Christian dead.

They were a special case, so Christ made a special trip to them. Their refusal to believe God would forgive their mixed angel-human DNA was reasonable. In the LAW we read:

`You shall keep My statutes. You shall not let your livestock breed with another kind. You shall not sow your field with mixed seed. Nor shall a garment of mixed linen and wool come upon you. (Lev. 19:19 NKJ)

So they wanted to believe, but knowing God (no doubt from their angel fathers the sons of God Gen. 6:2), they were "disobedient" because they were "disbelieving". They were formerly disbelieving but now believed Christ and gave the answer of a good conscience towards God just like the Church does to Christ's preaching:

544 ἀπειθέω apeitheo {ap-i-theh'-o}
Meaning: 1) not to allow one's self to be persuaded 1a) to refuse or withhold belief 1b) to refuse belief and obedience 2) not to comply with

20 who formerly were disobedient (544 ἀπειθέω apeitheo), when once the Divine longsuffering waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight souls, were saved through water.
21 There is also an antitype which now saves us-- baptism (not the removal of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God), through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,

Therefore, this text totally refutes your theory Christ didn't preach in Hades.

At 1 Peter 3: 18 in this scripture the words “flesh” and “spirit” are put in contrast to each other, and both are in the dative case; so, if a translator uses the rendering “by the spirit” he should also consistently say “by the flesh,” or if he uses “in the flesh” he should also say “in the spirit."
Many Bibles don't have 1 Peter 3: 18 written down as your translation does, which you quoted as saying, "For Christ also suffered once for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive by the Spirit," instead most bibles have it written down similarly to how the New International Version has it written down, "For Christ also suffered once for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive in the Spirit."
They translated this verse this way because "flesh" and "spirit" are put in contrast to each other, and both are in the active case.

Because of what Jesus said at John 6:51 when he said, "I am the living bread that came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread he will live forever; and for a fact, the bread that I will give is my flesh in behalf of the World."
Also What Jesus said at Matthew 20:28 Jesus says, Just as the son of man came, not to be ministered to, but to minister and to give his life as a ransom in exchange for many.
These two scriptures along with 1 Peter 3:18 help me to understand that Jesus sacrificed his human body his human life for mankind and was resurrected from Hades as a life giving spirit, who was given immortality, and inherited incorruption and it was in this state when he had been resurrected from Hades that he spoke to the spirits in prison. You and I are going to disagree on this.

 

[reddogs]

It's one thing to be taught wrong, most Christians are with the state of the churches today. However, when it's brought to our attention we really should consider it. Think about what you guys are saying. You're essentially saying God lied. God said through Ezekiel, 'the soul that sins shall die.' You guys are saying, no, that's wrong, the soul that sins shall live and suffer eternal torment.

Very true..

 

[Alfred Persson]

Very true..

Odd and peculiar definition of life. The dead corpses resurrected for the wicked to be tormented in, aren't "alive". They are "dead".

"And they shall go forth and look Upon the corpses of the men Who have transgressed against Me. For their worm does not die, And their fire is not quenched. They shall be an abhorrence to all flesh." (Isa. 66:24 NKJ)

When someone dies, the spirit that gave life to the body and soul departs to return to God. The "soul" is no longer alive, it is dead. A "shade" of its former self:

They are dead, they will not live; they are shades, they will not arise; to that end thou hast visited them with destruction and wiped out all remembrance of them. (Isa. 26:14 RSV)

These dead shades are imprisoned in corpses, dead bodies reeking of corruption. The undying worm never stops "eating them", which causes the shade within to feel pain. As does the unquenchable fire. These abominations are piled high in heaps, in Gehenna, the garbage dump where all such refuse, is burned.

 

[Alfred Persson]

At 1 Peter 3: 18 in this scripture the words “flesh” and “spirit” are put in contrast to each other, and both are in the dative case; so, if a translator uses the rendering “by the spirit” he should also consistently say “by the flesh,” or if he uses “in the flesh” he should also say “in the spirit."
Many Bibles don't have 1 Peter 3: 18 written down as your translation does, which you quoted as saying, "For Christ also suffered once for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive by the Spirit," instead most bibles have it written down similarly to how the New International Version has it written down, "For Christ also suffered once for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive in the Spirit."
They translated this verse this way because "flesh" and "spirit" are put in contrast to each other, and both are in the active case.

Because of what Jesus said at John 6:51 when he said, "I am the living bread that came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread he will live forever; and for a fact, the bread that I will give is my flesh in behalf of the World."
Also What Jesus said at Matthew 20:28 Jesus says, Just as the son of man came, not to be ministered to, but to minister and to give his life as a ransom in exchange for many.
These two scriptures along with 1 Peter 3:18 help me to understand that Jesus sacrificed his human body his human life for mankind and was resurrected from Hades as a life giving spirit, who was given immortality, and inherited incorruption and it was in this state when he had been resurrected from Hades that he spoke to the spirits in prison. You and I are going to disagree on this.

Doesn't matter, either translation still shows Peter alluding to Psalm 71:20 in the Septuagint,

ὅσας ἔδειξάς μοι θλίψεις πολλὰς καὶ κακάς καὶ ἐπιστρέψας ἐζωοποίησάς με καὶ ἐκ τῶν ἀβύσσων τῆς γῆς πάλιν ἀνήγαγές με (Ps. 70:20 BGT)

What afflictions many and sore hast thou shewed me! yet thou didst turn and quicken me, and broughtest me again from the depths of the earth. (Ps. 71:20 LXA)

When humans die (and Jesus added to Himself fully human nature), the spirit returns to God who made it (Ecc.. 3:21) and the soul dies, becomes a "shade" (Is. 26:14) too weak to do anything but exist. Therefore, God the Holy Spirit quickened the soul of Jesus, and in that sphere of strength He went and preached to the spirits in prison.

18 For Christ also died for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive ( ζῳοποιηθεὶς) in the spirit;
19 in which he went and preached to the spirits in prison, (1 Pet. 3:18-19 RSV)

 

[Barney Bright]

Doesn't matter, either translation still shows Peter alluding to Psalm 71:20 in the Septuagint,

ὅσας ἔδειξάς μοι θλίψεις πολλὰς καὶ κακάς καὶ ἐπιστρέψας ἐζωοποίησάς με καὶ ἐκ τῶν ἀβύσσων τῆς γῆς πάλιν ἀνήγαγές με (Ps. 70:20 BGT)

What afflictions many and sore hast thou shewed me! yet thou didst turn and quicken me, and broughtest me again from the depths of the earth. (Ps. 71:20 LXA)

When humans die (and Jesus added to Himself fully human nature), the spirit returns to God who made it (Ecc.. 3:21) and the soul dies, becomes a "shade" (Is. 26:14) too weak to do anything but exist. Therefore, God the Holy Spirit quickened the soul of Jesus, and in that sphere of strength He went and preached to the spirits in prison.

18 For Christ also died for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive ( ζῳοποιηθεὶς) in the spirit;
19 in which he went and preached to the spirits in prison, (1 Pet. 3:18-19 RSV)

It matters because 1Peter 3:18 is teaching me that Jesus was put to death as a human being then be was resurrected out of Hades a life giving spirit with immortality and inherited incorruption, and it was in this state as a immortal, incorruptible life giving spirit that Jesus preached to the spirits in prison.
When the scriptures state the spirit goes back to God, its not talking about some living person literally going to heaven to God.
Ecclesiastes 3:18-22 shows that man dies in the same manner as the beasts, for “they all have but one spirit, so that there is no superiority of the man over the beast,” that is, as to the spirit common to both.
Psalm 146:3, 4 says that when man’s “spirit goes out, he goes back to his ground; in that day his thoughts do perish.
Ecclesiastes 12:7 states that at death the person’s body returns to the dust, “and the spirit itself returns to the true God who gave it.” The person himself was never in heaven with God; what “returns” to God is therefore the vital force that enabled the person to live.

 

[Alfred Persson]

It matters because 1Peter 3:18 is teaching me that Jesus was put to death as a human being then be was resurrected out of Hades a life giving spirit with immortality and inherited incorruption, and it was in this state as a immortal, incorruptible life giving spirit that Jesus preached to the spirits in prison.
When the scriptures state the spirit goes back to God, its not talking about some living person literally going to heaven to God.
Ecclesiastes 3:18-22 shows that man dies in the same manner as the beasts, for “they all have but one spirit, so that there is no superiority of the man over the beast,” that is, as to the spirit common to both.
Psalm 146:3, 4 says that when man’s “spirit goes out, he goes back to his ground; in that day his thoughts do perish.
Ecclesiastes 12:7 states that at death the person’s body returns to the dust, “and the spirit itself returns to the true God who gave it.” The person himself was never in heaven with God; what “returns” to God is therefore the vital force that enabled the person to live.

I don't accept the New World Translation or their eisegesis of these texts. The animating spirit goes back to God, not the person or soul. It becomes weak, a shade of its former self. But its still a "soul".

RSV Job 26:5 The shades below tremble, the waters and their inhabitants.
10 Dost thou work wonders for the dead? Do the shades rise up to praise thee? Selah
RSV Prov. 2:18 for her house sinks down to death, and her paths to the shades;
RSV Isa. 14:9 Sheol beneath is stirred up to meet you when you come, it rouses the shades to greet you, all who were leaders of the earth; it raises from their thrones all who were kings of the nations.
RSV Isa. 26:14 They are dead, they will not live; they are shades, they will not arise; to that end thou hast visited them with destruction and wiped out all remembrance of them.
RSV Isa. 26:19 Thy dead shall live, their bodies shall rise. O dwellers in the dust, awake and sing for joy! For thy dew is a dew of light, and on the land of the shades thou wilt let it fall.


Ecclesiastes 3:21 isn't denying the animating spirit of man ascends back to God, it asks "who can prove it so we know":

For who can prove that the human spirit goes up and the spirit of animals goes down into the earth?-New Living Translation.

And who has seen the spirit of the sons of man, whether it goes upward? and the spirit of the beast, whether it goes downward to the earth? (Eccl. 3:21 LXX)

The Septuagint renders the Hebrew (03045 ידע yada`) οἶδεν (verb indicative perfect active 3rd person singular from οἶδα): "who has seen to know" by experience.

THAT its mentioned implies it was an accepted belief, albeit unprovable.

The context isn't God saying humans are like animals, Koleth "the Preacher" is pondering the futility of life.

Its infallibly established humans are not like animals, they bear the likeness and image of God (Gen. 1:26-27) who is Spirit (Jn. 4:24). Therefore, unlike animals, we have a spiritual nature in our makeup.

 

[Barney Bright]

Alfred Person said,
"I don't accept the New World Translation or their eisegesis of these texts. The animating spirit goes back to God, not the person or soul. It becomes weak, a shade of its former self. But its still a soul."[/QUOTE\]

I don't let what anyone thinks about any Bible, concern me. I let people choose what Bible they choose to use. I also don't agree with what some people say on certain texts, such as what you're saying about 1 Peter 3:18. I still say Jesus wasn't preaching to anyone in Hades because he was dead for parts of three days when Jesus was in Hades. It was after Jesus was resurrected from Hades as a spirit who had immortality and incorruption, that Jesus preached to the spirits in prison.
Job 26: 5, 10 doesn't mean the dead literally tremble, or praise. Isaiah 14:4, 8-11 is a proverb or proverbial saying or parable so its poetic language representing inanimate things. So it's not teaching us that trees literally rejoice over someone, trees don't talk.

In Sheol/Hades the dead do not even think about God or talk about him. That was why the God-fearing psalmist David prayed: “Do return, O Jehovah, do rescue my soul; save me for the sake of your loving-kindness. For in death there is no mention of you; in Sheol/Hades who will laud you?” (Psalm 6:4, 5) The same thought was expressed by King Hezekiah, he said to the true God his saviour, "You yourself have become attached to my soul and kept it from the pit of disintegration. For you have thrown behind your back all my sins. For it is not Sheol/Hades that can laud you; death itself cannot praise you. Those going down into the pit cannot look hopefully to your trueness. The living, the living, he is the one that can laud you, just as I can this day.” (Isaiah 38:17-19) Fifteen years later, when King Hezekiah died and went to Sheol/Hades, he was not able to praise YHWH God and he had no consciousness to be able to hope in his God. However, he died with hope of a resurrection from Sheol/Hades. So neither David nor Hezekiah believed anyone had consciousness and could speak, think, hear, or see in Sheol/Hades. So because of what David, and Hezekiah, said about those that are dead in Sheol/Hades not able to think about God, not able to laud or praise God then what I said at Ecclesiastes 3:21 about the spirit not being a literal spirit person literally going to heaven to God I still say is true.

So King Solomon, the Preacher" wasn't just pondering the futility of life. He was agreeing with what David and Hezekiah said about death and Hades. He says in Ecclesiastes 9:4-6, 10: “As respects whoever is joined to all the living there exists confidence, because a live dog is better off than a dead lion. For the living [though like dogs] are conscious that they will die; but as for the dead, they [even though like lions] are conscious of nothing at all, neither do they any more have wages, because the remembrance of them has been forgotten. Also, their love and their hate and their jealousy have already perished, and they have no portion any more to time indefinite in anything that has to be done under the sun. All that your hand finds to do, do with your very power, for there is no work nor devising nor knowledge nor wisdom in Sheol, the place to which you are going.”
So what Solomon says here at Ecclesiastes 9: 4- 6, 10 agrees with what David, and Hezekiah said about death and Sheol/Hades

 

[Alfred Persson]

Alfred Person said,
"I don't accept the New World Translation or their eisegesis of these texts. The animating spirit goes back to God, not the person or soul. It becomes weak, a shade of its former self. But its still a soul."[/QUOTE\]

I don't let what anyone thinks about any Bible, concern me. I let people choose what Bible they choose to use. I also don't agree with what some people say on certain texts, such as what you're saying about 1 Peter 3:18. I still say Jesus wasn't preaching to anyone in Hades because he was dead for parts of three days when Jesus was in Hades. It was after Jesus was resurrected from Hades as a spirit who had immortality and incorruption, that Jesus preached to the spirits in prison.

Ok, let's have it your way:

18 For Christ died once for all time for sins, a righteous person for unrighteous ones, in order to lead you to God. He was put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit. 19 And in this state he went and preached to the spirits in prison, 20 who had formerly been disobedient when God was patiently waiting* in Noah’s day, while the ark was being constructed, in which a few people, that is, eight souls, were carried safely through the water.-1 Peter 3:18-20 NWT

The "spirits in prison" are in Hades, the "unseen realm". After Jesus died His soul was "made alive in the spirit" and "in this state" he went and preached to the spirits in prison.

This is before His resurrection, before "he went to heaven" as we see in verse 22:

He is at God’s right hand, for he went to heaven, and angels and authorities and powers were made subject to him.- -1 Peter 3:18-20 NWT

Therefore, according to the NWT Jesus was not "dead" in Hades, He was "made alive in the spirit" and "in this state" went and preached to the spirits in prison in hades, before "he went to heaven". That is before His resurrection.

 

[Alfred Persson]

In Sheol/Hades the dead do not even think about God or talk about him.

"Shades" "(07496 רָפָא rapha') Meaning: 1) ghosts of the dead, shades, spirits-Strong's Concordance" is found 8 times in the OT and the NWT renders it "those powerless in death".

When reading these scriptures we learn "those powerless in death" are weak shades of their former selves. They are dead, the animating spirit has returned to God who gave it (Eccl. 12:7), and they can barely rise to stand, can't muster the strength to praise God (Ps. 88:10). Now they are "those powerless in death" in contrast to being powerful kings when alive (Isa. 14:9-10). They "tremble" in the depths of the grave (Job. 26:5) waiting for judgment day.

Souls in Hades are shades of their former selves, BEFORE their resurrection as is clear in Isa. 26:19. "My corpses will rise up....those powerless in death come to life":

19 “Your dead will live. My corpses will rise up. Awake and shout joyfully, You residents in the dust! For your dew is as the dew of the morning, And the earth will let those powerless in death come to life. Isa. 26:19 NWT


All the NWT texts:

Those who are powerless in death tremble; They are even lower than the waters and their inhabitants.-Job 26:5 NWT

Will you perform wonders for the dead? Can those powerless in death rise up to praise you? (Selah)-Ps. 88:10 NWT

For her house sinks down into death, And her paths lead to those powerless in death. -Prov. 2:18 NWT

But he does not know that those powerless in death are there, That her guests are in the depths of the Grave. -Prov. 9:18 NWT

The man who strays from the way of insight Will rest in the company of those powerless in death. -Prov. 21:16 NWT

9 Even the Grave underneath is stirred up To meet you when you come. Because of you, it awakens those powerless in death, All the oppressive leaders of the earth. It makes all the kings of the nations rise from their thrones.
10 All of them speak up and say to you, ‘Have you also become weak like us? Have you become like us?- Isa. 14:9-10 NWT

They are dead; they will not live. Powerless in death, they will not rise up. For you have turned your attention to them To annihilate them and destroy all mention of them. - Isa. 26:14 NWT

19 “Your dead will live. My corpses will rise up. Awake and shout joyfully, You residents in the dust! For your dew is as the dew of the morning, And the earth will let those powerless in death come to life. Isa. 26:19 NWT

 

[Barney Bright]

Alfred Person said,
The "spirits in prison" are in Hades, the "unseen realm". After Jesus died His soul was "made alive in the spirit" and "in this state" he went and preached to the spirits in prison.

This is before His resurrection, before "he went to heaven" as we see in verse 22:

He is at God’s right hand, for he went to heaven, and angels and authorities and powers were made subject to him.- -1 Peter 3:18-20 NWT

Therefore, according to the NWT Jesus was not "dead" in Hades, He was "made alive in the spirit" and "in this state" went and preached to the spirits in prison in hades, before "he went to heaven". That is before His resurrection.[/QUOTE\]
I plainly said Jesus was dead for parts of three days then he was resurrected from Hades. So I didn't say Jesus wasn't dead in Hades, and neither is he NWT. What I said about Jesus being in Hades at post # 395 was, "I still say Jesus wasn't preaching to anyone in Hades because he was dead for parts of three days when Jesus was in Hades. It was after Jesus was resurrected from Hades as a spirit who had immortality and incorruption, that Jesus preached to the spirits in prison." That means Jesus was dead for parts of three days while in Hades, then he was resurrected out of Hades as a life giving spirit who was given immortality and had inherited incorruption, and it was in this state as a life giving spirit who had immortality and had inherited incorruption that he preached to the spirits in prison after he had been resurrected out of Hades. These spirits that Jesus preached to were not in Hades. That's because these spirits in prison are angels and angels don't go to Hades. These angels mated with the daughters of men, they left heaven and materialized physical bodies that looked like human bodies. When the flood happened they materialized back to there natural state which is spirit, and went back into heaven. They were forbidden to go back to their assigned positions that they had forsaken. Jude tells us: “The angels that did not keep their original position but forsook their own proper dwelling place he has reserved with eternal bonds under dense darkness for the judgment of the great day.” (Jude 6) The punishment these angels received at the time of Noah's day was that eventually they will be thrown into the lake of fire, until then, they have been bound with eternal bonds of dense darkness, and have been in that dense darkness since the days of Noah, when they sinned.( 1 Peter 3:19, 20; 2 Peter 2:4) The texts Jude 6; 1 Peter 3:19, 20 and 2 Peter 2:4 it is evident that Tartarus is a condition, rather than a particular place, this is in view of the fact that Peter on the one hand, speaks of these disobedient spirits as being in pits of dense darkness, Paul speaks of them as being in heavenly places from which they exercises rule of darkness as wicked forces.(2 Peter 2:4; Ephesians 6:10-12) So the dense darkness is not literally a lack of light but this dense darkness is a result that God has cut these angels that sinned from all illumination from him so these angels are renegades and outcasts from his family, with only the lake of fire as being their destiny.
Tartarus isn't the same as the Hebrew word Sheol or Hades, both of which refer to the common grave of mankind. This is evident from the fact that, while the apostle Peter shows that Jesus Christ preached to these spirits in prison, Peter also shows that Jesus didn't preach to these spirits during the three days he was dead in Hades, but after he was resurrected out of Hades.

 

[Alfred Persson]

It was after Jesus was resurrected from Hades as a spirit who had immortality and incorruption, that Jesus preached to the spirits in prison." That means Jesus was dead for parts of three days while in Hades, then he was resurrected out of Hades as a life giving spirit who was given immortality and had inherited incorruption, and it was in this state as a life giving spirit who had immortality and had inherited incorruption that he preached to the spirits in prison after he had been resurrected out of Hades.

Your chronology rearranges the verses so 1Pet. 3:22 occurs before 1 Pet. 3:18. Christ doesn't go to heaven until AFTER He preached to the spirits in prison, when His human soul was quickened in the Holy Spirit in Hades:


18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;
20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.
21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:
22 Who is gone into heaven, and is on the right hand of God; angels and authorities and powers being made subject unto him. (1 Pet. 3:18-22 KJV)

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

Prof. Berkoff has an excellent section on the Holy Trinity, and its free:

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www.apuritansmind.com

You know, indeed this may help you know ABOUT God and deepen my understanding of the Holy Trinity, but no matter what amount of such materials I read and study, God is still distant like the sun in the sky; it's still a religion, not a relationship. To really know God, closely, intimately, one must taste and see Him, and to be honest, I don't think I could either taste or see Him through an endless theology debate of either annihilationism or the nature of the trinity.