Who shall declare His Generation ?

[savedbygrace57]

Isa 53:

8He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken.

That is, who shall declare to His generation that he was stricken for ?

His generation is His Seed as per Isa 53:

10Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.

He shall see His seed or His generation, and that will be to the pleasure of the Lord prospering in His Hands.

Now the word generation in Isa 53 8 is the hebrew word:

dowr :

generation (those living during a period)

c) generation (characterised by quality, condition, class of men)

A generation denotes them proceeding from a particular progenitor, i.e The Generation of Adam, then it list who they are out of Him:

Genesis 5


1This is the book of the generations of Adam. In the day that God created man, in the likeness of God made he him;

2Male and female created he them; and blessed them, and called their name Adam, in the day when they were created.

3And Adam lived an hundred and thirty years, and begat a son in his own likeness, and after his image; and called his name Seth:

So the Ideal in Isa 53 8 is that this suffering servant of Jehovah had a generation, a class of men that would proceed from Him, as a result of His being stricken for them.

Remember Jesus said John 12:

24Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a corn of wheat fall into the ground and die, it abideth alone: but if it die, it bringeth forth much fruit.

The word fruit means:

The fruit of one's loins, i.e. his progeny, his posterity

or His seed.

So, as a result of His suffering, His death, a progeny, a generation shall proceed out from Him.

This is also seen in PS 22:

A seed shall serve him; it shall be accounted to the Lord for a generation.

Believers in Him are therefore called a generation 1 pet 2:

But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light;

And the question is asked, who shall declare His generation ? That is, all that belong to that generation, that seed, should have it declared to them.

Thats the gospel of their salvation shall be declared to them, and by whom ?

By the seed ! Notice Isa 59:21

As for me, this is my covenant with them, saith the LORD; My spirit that is upon thee, and my words which I have put in thy mouth, shall not depart out of thy mouth, nor out of the mouth of thy seed, nor out of the mouth of thy seed's seed, saith the LORD, from henceforth and for ever.

Notice PS 22 again :

They shall come, and shall declare his righteousness unto a people that shall be born[ A generation], that he hath done this.

God raised up Gospel Preachers, who themselves were of that seed, to preach or declare to others of that seed.

And this was not a ethnic jew thing, for the seed was comprised of all ethnicities.

An example of this was recorded in acts 8:


30And Philip ran thither to him, and heard him read the prophet Esaias, and said, Understandest thou what thou readest?

31And he said, How can I, except some man should guide me? And he desired Philip that he would come up and sit with him.

32The place of the scripture which he read was this, He was led as a sheep to the slaughter; and like a lamb dumb before his shearer, so opened he not his mouth:

33In his humiliation his judgment was taken away: and who shall declare his generation? for his life is taken from the earth.

34And the eunuch answered Philip, and said, I pray thee, of whom speaketh the prophet this? of himself, or of some other man?

35Then Philip opened his mouth, and began at the same scripture, and preached unto him Jesus.

This was no coincidence that Philip was lead of God to this non jewish Ethiopian man !

This man was one of the seed, of that generation, that shall be born, and God sent one of the already born ones, to declare to another of the born ones, one of his own generation, of the same seed.

And thats what the preaching of the Gospel was all about in the beginning, it was Jesus sending out His seed [ the disciples] for the gathering in of the rest of His seed in all nations, as the Ethiopian was a indicator of.

But be advised, lest we forget the main point of this thread, the message of salvation was only for a specific generation, a chosen generation !

That Generation of men, chosen in Christ before the world began.

 

[Nathan]

I
But be advised, lest we forget the main point of this thread, the message of salvation was only for a specific generation, a chosen generation !

That Generation of men, chosen in Christ before the world began.

Joe 2:28-32 "And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my Spirit on all flesh; your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, and your young men shall see visions. Even on the male and female servants in those days I will pour out my Spirit. "And I will show wonders in the heavens and on the earth, blood and fire and columns of smoke. The sun shall be turned to darkness, and the moon to blood, before the great and awesome day of the LORD comes. And it shall come to pass that everyone who calls on the name of the LORD shall be saved. For in Mount Zion and in Jerusalem there shall be those who escape, as the LORD has said, and among the survivors shall be those whom the LORD calls."

Hallelujah!!!!! We are that "generation"!!!

 

[edwin]

Isa 53:

8He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken.

That is, who shall declare to His generation that he was stricken for ?

His generation is His Seed as per Isa 53:

10Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.

He shall see His seed or His generation, and that will be to the pleasure of the Lord prospering in His Hands.

Now the word generation in Isa 53 8 is the hebrew word:

dowr :

generation (those living during a period)

c) generation (characterised by quality, condition, class of men)

A generation denotes them proceeding from a particular progenitor, i.e The Generation of Adam, then it list who they are out of Him:

Genesis 5


1This is the book of the generations of Adam. In the day that God created man, in the likeness of God made he him;

2Male and female created he them; and blessed them, and called their name Adam, in the day when they were created.

3And Adam lived an hundred and thirty years, and begat a son in his own likeness, and after his image; and called his name Seth:

So the Ideal in Isa 53 8 is that this suffering servant of Jehovah had a generation, a class of men that would proceed from Him, as a result of His being stricken for them.

Remember Jesus said John 12:

24Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a corn of wheat fall into the ground and die, it abideth alone: but if it die, it bringeth forth much fruit.

The word fruit means:

The fruit of one's loins, i.e. his progeny, his posterity

or His seed.

So, as a result of His suffering, His death, a progeny, a generation shall proceed out from Him.

This is also seen in PS 22:

A seed shall serve him; it shall be accounted to the Lord for a generation.

Believers in Him are therefore called a generation 1 pet 2:

But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light;

And the question is asked, who shall declare His generation ? That is, all that belong to that generation, that seed, should have it declared to them.

Thats the gospel of their salvation shall be declared to them, and by whom ?

By the seed ! Notice Isa 59:21

As for me, this is my covenant with them, saith the LORD; My spirit that is upon thee, and my words which I have put in thy mouth, shall not depart out of thy mouth, nor out of the mouth of thy seed, nor out of the mouth of thy seed's seed, saith the LORD, from henceforth and for ever.

Notice PS 22 again :

They shall come, and shall declare his righteousness unto a people that shall be born[ A generation], that he hath done this.

God raised up Gospel Preachers, who themselves were of that seed, to preach or declare to others of that seed.

And this was not a ethnic jew thing, for the seed was comprised of all ethnicities.

An example of this was recorded in acts 8:


30And Philip ran thither to him, and heard him read the prophet Esaias, and said, Understandest thou what thou readest?

31And he said, How can I, except some man should guide me? And he desired Philip that he would come up and sit with him.

32The place of the scripture which he read was this, He was led as a sheep to the slaughter; and like a lamb dumb before his shearer, so opened he not his mouth:

33In his humiliation his judgment was taken away: and who shall declare his generation? for his life is taken from the earth.

34And the eunuch answered Philip, and said, I pray thee, of whom speaketh the prophet this? of himself, or of some other man?

35Then Philip opened his mouth, and began at the same scripture, and preached unto him Jesus.

This was no coincidence that Philip was lead of God to this non jewish Ethiopian man !

This man was one of the seed, of that generation, that shall be born, and God sent one of the already born ones, to declare to another of the born ones, one of his own generation, of the same seed.

And thats what the preaching of the Gospel was all about in the beginning, it was Jesus sending out His seed [ the disciples] for the gathering in of the rest of His seed in all nations, as the Ethiopian was a indicator of.

But be advised, lest we forget the main point of this thread, the message of salvation was only for a specific generation, a chosen generation !

That Generation of men, chosen in Christ before the world began.

Why do you assume that these passages refer to Jesus?
Isaiah 52 speaks about the suffering of the Jewish people throughout history and their ultimate redemption.
Isaiah 54 speaks about the suffering of the Jewish people throughout history and their ultimate redemption.
As it turns out, Isaiah 53 is the same story. The Jewish people are despised, rejected, and persecuted. Then, they are exalted, redeemed, lifted up. Since this is a theme that runs consistently throughout the book of Isaiah, especially chapters 40 through the end, there is no reason to believe that chapter 53 has suddenly shifted gears and is talking about something entirely different.

 

[mlqurgw]

I would agree with almost everything you wrote here including the fact that believers are a chosen generation. The only point I might disagree on is your first. Who shall decalre His generation speaks of His Godhood. He was the Son given and the child born. His generation was not of man but of God in that He was not of the seed of Adam. Heb.2:16 He4 is the promised woman's seed that would crush the serpents head. Gen 3:15 The rest of your post and the premise I do wholeheartedly agree with.

Isa 53:

8He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken.

That is, who shall declare to His generation that he was stricken for ?

His generation is His Seed as per Isa 53:

10Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.

He shall see His seed or His generation, and that will be to the pleasure of the Lord prospering in His Hands.

Now the word generation in Isa 53 8 is the hebrew word:

dowr :

generation (those living during a period)

c) generation (characterised by quality, condition, class of men)

A generation denotes them proceeding from a particular progenitor, i.e The Generation of Adam, then it list who they are out of Him:

Genesis 5


1This is the book of the generations of Adam. In the day that God created man, in the likeness of God made he him;

2Male and female created he them; and blessed them, and called their name Adam, in the day when they were created.

3And Adam lived an hundred and thirty years, and begat a son in his own likeness, and after his image; and called his name Seth:

So the Ideal in Isa 53 8 is that this suffering servant of Jehovah had a generation, a class of men that would proceed from Him, as a result of His being stricken for them.

Remember Jesus said John 12:

24Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a corn of wheat fall into the ground and die, it abideth alone: but if it die, it bringeth forth much fruit.

The word fruit means:

The fruit of one's loins, i.e. his progeny, his posterity

or His seed.

So, as a result of His suffering, His death, a progeny, a generation shall proceed out from Him.

This is also seen in PS 22:

A seed shall serve him; it shall be accounted to the Lord for a generation.

Believers in Him are therefore called a generation 1 pet 2:

But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light;

And the question is asked, who shall declare His generation ? That is, all that belong to that generation, that seed, should have it declared to them.

Thats the gospel of their salvation shall be declared to them, and by whom ?

By the seed ! Notice Isa 59:21

As for me, this is my covenant with them, saith the LORD; My spirit that is upon thee, and my words which I have put in thy mouth, shall not depart out of thy mouth, nor out of the mouth of thy seed, nor out of the mouth of thy seed's seed, saith the LORD, from henceforth and for ever.

Notice PS 22 again :

They shall come, and shall declare his righteousness unto a people that shall be born[ A generation], that he hath done this.

God raised up Gospel Preachers, who themselves were of that seed, to preach or declare to others of that seed.

And this was not a ethnic jew thing, for the seed was comprised of all ethnicities.

An example of this was recorded in acts 8:


30And Philip ran thither to him, and heard him read the prophet Esaias, and said, Understandest thou what thou readest?

31And he said, How can I, except some man should guide me? And he desired Philip that he would come up and sit with him.

32The place of the scripture which he read was this, He was led as a sheep to the slaughter; and like a lamb dumb before his shearer, so opened he not his mouth:

33In his humiliation his judgment was taken away: and who shall declare his generation? for his life is taken from the earth.

34And the eunuch answered Philip, and said, I pray thee, of whom speaketh the prophet this? of himself, or of some other man?

35Then Philip opened his mouth, and began at the same scripture, and preached unto him Jesus.

This was no coincidence that Philip was lead of God to this non jewish Ethiopian man !

This man was one of the seed, of that generation, that shall be born, and God sent one of the already born ones, to declare to another of the born ones, one of his own generation, of the same seed.

And thats what the preaching of the Gospel was all about in the beginning, it was Jesus sending out His seed [ the disciples] for the gathering in of the rest of His seed in all nations, as the Ethiopian was a indicator of.

But be advised, lest we forget the main point of this thread, the message of salvation was only for a specific generation, a chosen generation !

That Generation of men, chosen in Christ before the world began.

 

[savedbygrace57]

Christ death produces a seed of believers in Him !

So, as a result of His suffering, His death, a progeny, a generation shall proceed out from Him.

This is also seen in PS 22:

A seed shall serve him; it shall be accounted to the Lord for a generation.

Believers in Him are therefore called a generation 1 pet 2:

But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light;


Christ death produces a seed of believers in Him, a generation of believers.

The seed that shall serve Him as per ps 22:

30A seed shall serve him; it shall be accounted to the Lord for a generation.

They cannot serve Him without Faith, so Faith is in the provision of His benefits of being a sin offering for them.

Jesus said jn 12:

32And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

To make it simple, this means that as a result of His death for them[Being lifted up on the cross], He will draw men from every tribe and nation and tongue to believe in Him as their salvation.

 

[edwin]

Christ death produces a seed of believers in Him !

So, as a result of His suffering, His death, a progeny, a generation shall proceed out from Him.

This is also seen in PS 22:

A seed shall serve him; it shall be accounted to the Lord for a generation.

Believers in Him are therefore called a generation 1 pet 2:

But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light;


Christ death produces a seed of believers in Him, a generation of believers.

The seed that shall serve Him as per ps 22:

30A seed shall serve him; it shall be accounted to the Lord for a generation.

They cannot serve Him without Faith, so Faith is in the provision of His benefits of being a sin offering for them.

Jesus said jn 12:

32And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

To make it simple, this means that as a result of His death for them[Being lifted up on the cross], He will draw men from every tribe and nation and tongue to believe in Him as their salvation.

The word "zerah" is used 182 times in the book of Isaiah and in ALL cases it refers to biological descendants. This is especially so when, as a compound noun
it is used in conjunction with a verb as in 53:10-yir'eh zerah, ie he shall see seed. The KJB mistranslates here with the term "his seed". In Hebrew that would be "zaro"- a word which does not appear in this verse. In other words, the prophet is stating that the servant will see his family propogate. This is an expression used many times in the Hebrew bible and it is not a reference to spiritual descendants or disciples where the word "ben" or "banim" (plural) would be correct.

If you wish to discuss the entire issue of Isaiah 53 post again.

 

[savedbygrace57]

edwin:

The word "zerah" is used 182 times in the book of Isaiah and in ALL cases it refers to biological descendants.

I do not think that means much, for Christ seed is Spiritual in Isa 53 10, however, they will take on a biological form when they are first born sinners.

You see, Christ Spiritual seed are human beings too. Like Abraham, He was a Human Being, biologically, but He was still of Christ Spiritual seed.

 

[edwin]

edwin:



I do not think that means much, for Christ seed is Spiritual in Isa 53 10, however, they will take on a biological form when they are first born sinners.

You see, Christ Spiritual seed are human beings too. Like Abraham, He was a Human Being, biologically, but He was still of Christ Spiritual seed.

You can believe whatever you want. I am simply stating what the prophet Isaiah actually wrote in the original Hebrew. Bottom line: Jesus had no progeny. Isaiah is not referring to spiritual followers. Christianity has mistranslated much of the chapter to read Jesus into it. Again, if you wish to engage in a civil debate please provide substantive proof of your beliefs.

 

[savedbygrace57]

edwin:

You can believe whatever you want.

I believe whatever God wants, which is the Truth.

 

[edwin]

edwin:



I believe whatever God wants, which is the Truth.

God gave you a mind- to think, to analyze for yourself. I suggest you use it. If you do not speak Hebrew- get a proper translation and read Isaiah from at least from chapter 42 onward. BTW- how do you know what God wants if you depend on faulty translations of the original texts?

19. O Lord, Who are my power and my strength and my refuge in the day of trouble, to You nations will come from the ends of the earth and say, "Only lies have our fathers handed down to us, emptiness in which there is nothing of any avail!

 

[savedbygrace57]

edwin:

God gave you a mind-

More importantly, He gave me His Spirit to lead my mind into Truth.

 

[Sinthesis]

You can believe whatever you want. I am simply stating what the prophet Isaiah actually wrote in the original Hebrew. Bottom line: Jesus had no progeny. Isaiah is not referring to spiritual followers. Christianity has mistranslated much of the chapter to read Jesus into it. Again, if you wish to engage in a civil debate please provide substantive proof of your beliefs.

People were having trouble with the "born again" teaching even in Jesus' day.

 

[edwin]

edwin:



More importantly, He gave me His Spirit to lead my mind into Truth.

If you know the Truth, why are you unwilling to discuss the TRUE message of Isaiah 53 and the rest of Isaiah from 40 onward?

 

[savedbygrace57]

If you know the Truth, why are you unwilling to discuss the TRUE message of Isaiah 53 and the rest of Isaiah from 40 onward?

I am witnessing to the True message of Isa 53, you just dont seem to know it. and I will discuss or witness to Isa 40 when i get ready, not because of your silly challenge.

 

[edwin]

I am witnessing to the True message of Isa 53, you just dont seem to know it. and I will discuss or witness to Isa 40 when i get ready, not because of your silly challenge.

I am ready to be "educated" since you know the true message of Is 53. I would suggest you start with that since it is the proof-text most quoted by Christians to justify their belief in their messiah.

 

[savedbygrace57]

edwin:

I am ready to be "educated"

No you are not, I already have seen that by your response to the Truth I have already witness to.

 

[edwin]

edwin:



No you are not, I already have seen that by your response to the Truth I have already witness to.

Notwithstanding the fact that you should never terminate a sentence with a preposition, a) you have demonstrated nothing.
b) it is becoming obvious that you are unable to back up your "Truth" using appropriate scriptural analysis.

 

[Drew]

Why do you assume that these passages refer to Jesus?
Isaiah 52 speaks about the suffering of the Jewish people throughout history and their ultimate redemption.
Isaiah 54 speaks about the suffering of the Jewish people throughout history and their ultimate redemption.
As it turns out, Isaiah 53 is the same story. The Jewish people are despised, rejected, and persecuted. Then, they are exalted, redeemed, lifted up. Since this is a theme that runs consistently throughout the book of Isaiah, especially chapters 40 through the end, there is no reason to believe that chapter 53 has suddenly shifted gears and is talking about something entirely different.

I have great empathy for this position - Christians mysteriously ignore the clear "Israel-ness" of Isaiah 53 (not to mention other chapters as well).

Having said this, I do think one can legitimately see Jesus as fulfilling Isaiah 53 if, repeat if, we can coherently assert that Jesus acts as Israel in going to the cross. In other words, Jesus is "the obedient Israelite" who fulfills the specifically representative Messianic role - He acts on behalf of the people He represents - Israel.

I think there is a lot of evidence for this position - that Jesus "takes on" the destiny of Israel and that, in this carefully qualified sense, He does assume the Isaiah 53 role.

Perhaps this is a bit of a tangent to the main point of the thread.....

 

[edwin]

I have great empathy for this position - Christians mysteriously ignore the clear "Israel-ness" of Isaiah 53 (not to mention other chapters as well).

Having said this, I do think one can legitimately see Jesus as fulfilling Isaiah 53 if, repeat if, we can coherently assert that Jesus acts as Israel in going to the cross. In other words, Jesus is "the obedient Israelite" who fulfills the specifically representative Messianic role - He acts on behalf of the people He represents - Israel.

I think there is a lot of evidence for this position - that Jesus "takes on" the destiny of Israel and that, in this carefully qualified sense, He does assume the Isaiah 53 role.

Perhaps this is a bit of a tangent to the main point of the thread.....

Hi Drew: Thank you for your post. A few comments regarding what you said. If you read Is 53 in the original Hebrew ( starting at 52:13) it is clear that this is not messianic prophecy in the same vein as Isaiah chapter 2. Second, assuming that all the events as stated in the greek testament are factual, why point to Jesus as the obedient representative of Israel. Josephus tells us that there were thousands of Jews crucified by the Romans and some of them were at one time viewed as potential messiahs. Finally to maintain that the servant is Jesus completely ignores context. Not only do the surrounding chapters explore the same theme of Isa 53,(ie the redemption and salvation of Israel from among the nations) the prophet tells us who the servant is in other servant songs including chapters 41,44,45,49. This identification of corporate Israel or the righteous Israel is also made elsewhere in the Hebrew Bible as well. To completely and wilfully ignore this is just disingenuous.

 

[mlqurgw]

Hi Drew: Thank you for your post. A few comments regarding what you said. If you read Is 53 in the original Hebrew ( starting at 52:13) it is clear that this is not messianic prophecy in the same vein as Isaiah chapter 2. Second, assuming that all the events as stated in the greek testament are factual, why point to Jesus as the obedient representative of Israel. Josephus tells us that there were thousands of Jews crucified by the Romans and some of them were at one time viewed as potential messiahs. Finally to maintain that the servant is Jesus completely ignores context. Not only do the surrounding chapters explore the same theme of Isa 53,(ie the redemption and salvation of Israel from among the nations) the prophet tells us who the servant is in other servant songs including chapters 41,44,45,49. This identification of corporate Israel or the righteous Israel is also made elsewhere in the Hebrew Bible as well. To completely and wilfully ignore this is just disingenuous.

So your contention is that only those who are Hebrew scholars can understand the Old Testament? You discount the Spirit and those scholars who translated it into our language. I need not know Hebrew to be able to read what is written in the Old Testament I only need the Spirit and knowledge that those men who did translate it were themselves Hebrew scholars. Knowledge of the Hebrew is like knowledge of the Koine Greek, it may help give you more depth of understanding but it really answers no theological debates. It is as much a matter of interpretation as the English.