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Phoebe was a pastor. Do not tell me she was a servant in the sense of the weaker helping the stronger--she was a pastor or servant in the sense of the strong leading the weak.

The word used for servant in the scriptural passage of Romans 16:1 is "diakonos" in Greek. This word is used everywhere in the NT to designate the office of "minister". This same word is used to denote the office that Phoebe had in Cenchrea, but somehow the bias of the translators entered here and was translated as "servant" (upon encountering a female name!). Both translations are correct, but the wrong connotation has been taken. Pastors indeed ARE
servants! Elsewhere, wherever a minister was spoken of, if he had a male name, the word "diakonos" was transcribed as "minister", where "servant" is just as appropriate.

When Paul spoke of Phoebe as a helper of many as well as himself, he used the word, "prostatis", meaning "helper". In this sense, the word, "prostatis" means helping in the manner of one with authority, a master, and a leader. This word was used by the historian, Josephus, in describing Caesar, one of supreme authority. A leader is a helper, and in this sense, it denotes one who helps from a place of authority and strength, not one who helps a strong person out of a place of lesser strength.
 
because you claimed that jews did marry more then one wife and somehow that paul was addresed that to say that polygamy wasnt what he was adressing. that women couldnt marry more then one man.Paul said that because he want to end the practice of POLGAMY as the jews did that then and delineated there is the only reason we christians cant marry more then one wife and vice versa. the torah and tanakh and the talmud then oral traditions dont negate the concept of polygamy but that verse in titus ALONE does.

so if one wants to argue that one can ignore the jewish mitvahs then as the teens were as young adults today and yet say women can be bishops is most contradictory.Paul was bar mitzvahed! not like we see today though.

just bringing up the whole picture of what the jews did then and to show you that you arbitralarily decided which to follow. i am not taking your position nor imply that we should let teens marry.

Polygamy was never mentioned, nor did I say one word about youth.
 
Phoebe was a pastor. Do not tell me she was a servant in the sense of the weaker helping the stronger--she was a pastor or servant in the sense of the strong leading the weak.

The word used for servant in the scriptural passage of Romans 16:1 is "diakonos" in Greek. This word is used everywhere in the NT to designate the office of "minister". This same word is used to denote the office that Phoebe had in Cenchrea, but somehow the bias of the translators entered here and was translated as "servant" (upon encountering a female name!). Both translations are correct, but the wrong connotation has been taken. Pastors indeed ARE servants! Elsewhere, wherever a minister was spoken of, if he had a male name, the word "diakonos" was transcribed as "minister", where "servant" is just as appropriate.

When Paul spoke of Phoebe as a helper of many as well as himself, he used the word, "prostatis", meaning "helper". In this sense, the word, "prostatis" means helping in the manner of one with authority, a master, and a leader. This word was used by the historian, Josephus, in describing Caesar, one of supreme authority. A leader is a helper, and in this sense, it denotes one who helps from a place of authority and strength, not one who helps a strong person out of a place of lesser strength.
Phoebe was a good woman who obviously had some financial means,she helped Paul, had christians meeting in her house, she was a wonderful person, but none of that alters that God through Paul clearly taught male authority in the church.
 
titus deals with that as it has too, a husband of ONE wife. did you not argue that to me that women are treated as chattel and that they had no rights.

YEAH! They could not divorce! Men could! One wife means no ex-wives hanging around.
 
Phoebe was a good woman who obviously had some financial means,she helped Paul, had christians meeting in her house, she was a wonderful person, but none of that alters that God through Paul clearly taught male authority in the church.

But he didn't teach that at all.
 
YEAH! They could not divorce! Men could! One wife means no ex-wives hanging around.

how do you get that? i'm sure that the rare jew converts did commit polygamy, and up to that point it wasnt a no-no

the jews didnt stop that practice till a millenia ago. about 1000 a.d.
 
how do you get that? i'm sure that the rare jew converts did commit polygamy, and up to that point it wasnt a no-no

the jews didnt stop that practice till a millenia ago. about 1000 a.d.


Well, then! If there was polygamy going on, it was appropriate for those who had become Christians to know that they were not candidates for overseer.

Of course, women were not committing polygamy. They were the ones being used as chattel in the wife collection pastime, so the instruction would not refer to them. As married women, they would have had one spouse.
 
"In a time when scripture was written, women were never wives of more than one husband--that was just not done."



John 4:16-18
"<SUP>16</SUP>Jesus saith unto her, Go, call thy husband, and come hither.

<SUP id=en-KJV-26174 class=versenum>17</SUP>The woman answered and said, I have no husband. Jesus said unto her, Thou hast well said, I have no husband: <SUP id=en-KJV-26175 class=versenum>18</SUP>For thou hast had five husbands; and he whom thou now hast is not thy husband: in that saidst thou truly. "
 
titus says that the bishop must be a HUSBAND of ONE wife.

Actually, no. At least, the verses you quoted don't say that. Let's take a closerlook.

For this cause left I thee in Crete, that thou shouldest set in order the things that are wanting, and ordain elders in every city, as I had appointed thee: If any be blameless, the husband of one wife, having faithful children not accused of riot or unruly.
(Titus 1:5-6 KJV)

It's the elders that are to be monogomous. It doesn't say anything about the marital status or the gender of bishops. If you believe that the same rules apply to bishops as elders, even though Paul doesn't specifically say so (and if you believe that a bishop in the first century was the same as a pastor tody, which is another matter for debate), then do the other things in these verses also apply? If the fact that wives are mentioned means that women can't be bishops, then what about childless men? It says that they have to have children. It also says that those children can't be unruly and have to be faithful. What if a pastors kid decides he doesn't want to be a Christian and joins some other religious group or cult? Would his father have to resign? What if the kid starts hanging out with the wrong crowd and becomes unruly, even though he hadn't been so previously? Would his father then have to resign? Or does only the part about wives apply?
 
"In a time when scripture was written, women were never wives of more than one husband--that was just not done."



John 4:16-18
"<sup>16</sup>Jesus saith unto her, Go, call thy husband, and come hither.

<sup id="en-KJV-26174" class="versenum">17</sup>The woman answered and said, I have no husband. Jesus said unto her, Thou hast well said, I have no husband: <sup id="en-KJV-26175" class="versenum">18</sup>For thou hast had five husbands; and he whom thou now hast is not thy husband: in that saidst thou truly. "

This is all you can come up with? A Samaritan woman of ill repute was not the norm.
 
Jason, there were women pastors under Paul, He affirmed women in ministry, acting on behalf of Jesus Christ as His faithful servant.
After 33 years of Sunday School and bible reading - your statement really caught me off guard.

Care to back this claim up? If you can, I'll be surprised but I AM willing to listen.
 
[FONT=Arial, Arial, Helvetica]God called and used women preachers in the Old Testament.

a. DEBORAH - Judges 4:4-5. Deborah was a Judge for both civil and criminal cases. The children of Israel came to her for judgment. She was the chief ruler of Israel for 40 years, giving orders to the Generals and all the army. She did the work of an evangelist, prophetess, Judge, and a preacher. God gave her authority over the mighty (Judges 5:13).

b. MIRIAM - Exodus 15:20; Numbers 12:1; Micah 6:4. She was a Prophetess and a Song Leader in Israel.

c. HULDAH - 2 Kings 22:14. Five men went to Sister Huldah and communed with her. She spoke to a congregation of men concerning the book of the Law. A female preached to a man's congregation, and her message was taken to the nation and produced a revival.

d. MAHER-SHALAL-HASH-BAZ'S MOTHER - Isaiah 8:3. She was a prophetess.



God called and used women preachers in the New Testament.

a. The first message of the Resurrection of Christ was spoken by women to a group of men.

b. Anna - Luke 2:36-38. She must have prophesied in church, because she did not depart from the temple.

c. Phillip had 4 daughters who prophesied. Acts 21:9.

d. Priscilla assisted Paul in his revival meeting and even taught Apollos in the way of the Lord more perfectly.

e. Phoebe - Romans 16:1-2. Paul commended Phoebe to the Church at Rome and requested that they assist her in her business. She was one of Paul's assistants in the work of the Lord and delivered the Book of Romans to the people from the hand of Paul.



There is no sound reason why a woman or man should not preach the Gospel.
There is a desperate need in the church for more workers. Laborers are few, and God will use any and all who will go for Him. Some say God will not use a woman to preach, because "The woman was deceived," but remember Romans 5:12: "Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world." It seems to indicate that Adam was just as guilty as Eve in the fall of man. If anyone should be kept from preaching because of sin, it would be Adam. But God does not forbid anyone from preaching, because of Adam's or Eve's sin.



1 Cor. 14: 34-35 does not say anything about women preachers.
If Paul intended this verse as a general rule to bar all women from speaking in church, then they cannot teach Sunday School, testify, pray, prophesy, sing, or even get saved, and this would contradict the rest of the Bible (Acts 2:4; Acts 2:16-18).

Paul was rather dealing with a particular problem in the church. Women were not educated as were the men in that day; therefore the women would talk back and forth to their husbands in church and ask questions concerning the sermon. Paul said, "If they will learn anything, let them ask their husbands at home; for it is a shame for women to speak in the church." If they want to talk things over let them wait until they get home. This rule is still good for the church today, where people are talking and causing confusion in the church service. They should not speak in church. (Not in the back of the church either before or after services.)

If a woman cannot speak in church, then she cannot speak in prayer meeting, young people's service, etc., for who can deny that Sunday School and Prayer meeting, and Youth work are parts of church? Christ's Church is not a building, but rather it is found where two or three are gathered together in His name, whether at a street meeting, in a tent, a home, church, classroom or anywhere else.



1 Timothy 2:12 is not a blanket rule for all women of all churches.
If it were, then the women could not speak at all, for the same verse that tells them not to teach also tells them to be silent.

If all women had to keep silent in church, then that would be promoting disobedience to God, for they could not prophesy, pray, testify, sing, exhort, do personal work, or even get saved.

Whenever an interpretation to a verse contradicts the rest of the teaching of the Bible, we know this interpretation is incorrect, for the Holy Spirit will never contradict His own Word.

This is the chief verse that is used to oppose women preaching and yet it says nothing about preaching, nor does it say anything about a public worship or church service. But, on the contrary, this verse is giving instructions to wives as to how they were to conduct themselves in regard to their husband. Paul says in 1 Cor. 14:35, "And if they will LEARN anything, let them ask their husbands at home." Now he states in 1 Tim. 2:12 that the woman should learn in silence, and should not usurp authority over the man. Paul is dealing with more of a home problem than a church problem.

This verse still applies to us today. It is wrong for a woman to usurp authority over her husband (in church, home, or any place else) as was the case in Paul's day. She should not try to teach him or speak words that would cause discord and confusion, but should rather be silent and in subjection to her husband.

It is also to be understood that if anyone, whether man or woman, is usurping authority over the God-given leadership of the church, she or he is to be silent, and not to teach, or act in such a way that would create discord in the assembly.

Some have used Titus 1:6-7, "If any be blameless, the husband of one wife, having faithful children...", but there is a difference between a preacher and a bishop. For I was an Evangelist and now am a Pastor, but I am not a Bishop (Overseer), and most Pastors are not. If God called a single man with no children to be a Bishop, as Paul was, surely this verse is not opposed to it, nor would this scripture oppose a woman Bishop if she was called of God for the work, as was Deborah.

What this verse does teach is that a person who is to be a Bishop must not have two living companions, either husbands or wives.

The Bible often speaks of "man" when it refers to both men and and women inclusively. The word "mankind" also includes both men and women. For an example of this word usage see 1 Cor. 13:1 - "Though I speak with the tongues of MEN and angels...." This word "MEN" includes women as well, for we do not have one language for men and another for women.



To condemn women preachers and women church workers is a serious offense, because God has stamped His approval on them by His Spirit over and over again, and who is man to fight against the Spirit of God?

To condemn women preachers and women church workers is in a sense to claim they are doing wrong and committing sin...and all those who support them and listen to them are having a part in that sin.

For anyone to do this, he must condemn approximately 99% of all the Spirit-filled believers and the vast majority of all of Christianity.

"Of a truth, I perceive that God is no respecter of persons..." (Acts 10:34).

http://www.circleofchristianwomen.com/women_pastors.htm
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The Scriptures are very sexist. That is just a fact

Gen 2:18 And the LORD God said, It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him an help meet for him.

Seems God knew man was incomplete and so He created us!

Men and women are different. We don't even think alike. Our strengths and weakness are just different. We are as God formed us.

I would dare not tell God He was wrong! He is the potter we but the clay, His Word is clear on the subject. Adjust God's Word to fit the world of today? Not on my life.

I do many so called manly things plumbing, electric, years back auto repair these type of THINGS are cultural men and women things. Not antiscripture, never to be so full of myself as to declare Gods Word to be other then just what it is. He does know best.

O how i wish men would stand against the erosion of the body of Christ.

Women have a Godly place in the body we can do most anything and sadly one of the things we seem to like to do take over.

Seems to me the more literal one claims to believe the Word is the less they accept the man woman rolls set forth by God.



My rante for the day :wall
 
This is all you can come up with? A Samaritan woman of ill repute was not the norm.

but nevertheless, it is there.

Has anyone even taken the time to research the meaning of the word in the Greek? I am referring to 'Poimen', the Greek word for 'Pastor'. The word itself is masculine along with the masculine words for Bishop (Episcopos), Elder (Presbuteros), and Deacon (Diakonos).

You can search high and low in the Bible and you will not find the word Pastoress, Bishopess, Elderess, and Deaconess. Some will argue Phoebe was a Deaconess, but I challenge anyone to find the word 'Deaconess' in the Bible. The 'ess' was added later in today's terminology and has nothing to do with the original Greek writings of Paul. You will find the 'ess' does not exist in the Greek.

So was Paul contradicting himself when he wrote about Phoebe being a servant (diakonos) in comparison to the guidelines required to be a Deacon in 1 Timothy chapter 3? Absolutely not!

The original Greek word was used in a general sense for all servants, with no religious connotation. When the office of the 'Deacon' was established, Paul clearly states the requirement for one to hold such an office in 1 Timothy 3.
 
The Scriptures are very sexist. That is just a fact

Only in the minds and hearts of those who have a sexist frame of reference. Are you saying God is sexist, reba???

Gen 2:18 And the LORD God said, It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him an help meet for him.

Seems God knew man was incomplete and so He created us!

Men and women are different. We don't even think alike. Our strengths and weakness are just different. We are as God formed us.

I would dare not tell God He was wrong! He is the potter we but the clay, His Word is clear on the subject. Adjust God's Word to fit the world of today? Not on my life.

I do many so called manly things plumbing, electric, years back auto repair these type of THINGS are cultural men and women things. Not antiscripture, never to be so full of myself as to declare Gods Word to be other then just what it is. He does know best.

O how i wish men would stand against the erosion of the body of Christ.

Women have a Godly place in the body we can do most anything and sadly one of the things we seem to like to do take over.

Seems to me the more literal one claims to believe the Word is the less they accept the man woman rolls set forth by God.



My rante for the day :wall

Be elucidated on this one point today--an English lesson!

A help meet is not a compound noun. It means that God created a help for Adam which was meet (which means EQUAL TO) Adam.

Think on that.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
but nevertheless, it is there.

Has anyone even taken the time to research the meaning of the word in the Greek? I am referring to 'Poimen', the Greek word for 'Pastor'. The word itself is masculine along with the masculine words for Bishop (Episcopos), Elder (Presbuteros), and Deacon (Diakonos).

You can search high and low in the Bible and you will not find the word Pastoress, Bishopess, Elderess, and Deaconess. Some will argue Phoebe was a Deaconess, but I challenge anyone to find the word 'Deaconess' in the Bible. The 'ess' was added later in today's terminology and has nothing to do with the original Greek writings of Paul. You will find the 'ess' does not exist in the Greek.

So was Paul contradicting himself when he wrote about Phoebe being a servant (diakonos) in comparison to the guidelines required to be a Deacon in 1 Timothy chapter 3? Absolutely not!

The original Greek word was used in a general sense for all servants, with no religious connotation. When the office of the 'Deacon' was established, Paul clearly states the requirement for one to hold such an office in 1 Timothy 3.

No, Phoebe was what was considered a deacon, which was a pastor in that day---'diakonos', or minister.
 
The Scriptures are very sexist. That is just a fact

Gen 2:18 And the LORD God said, It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him an help meet for him.

Seems God knew man was incomplete and so He created us!

Men and women are different. We don't even think alike. Our strengths and weakness are just different. We are as God formed us.

I would dare not tell God He was wrong! He is the potter we but the clay, His Word is clear on the subject. Adjust God's Word to fit the world of today? Not on my life.

I do many so called manly things plumbing, electric, years back auto repair these type of THINGS are cultural men and women things. Not antiscripture, never to be so full of myself as to declare Gods Word to be other then just what it is. He does know best.

O how i wish men would stand against the erosion of the body of Christ.

Women have a Godly place in the body we can do most anything and sadly one of the things we seem to like to do take over.

Seems to me the more literal one claims to believe the Word is the less they accept the man woman rolls set forth by God.



My rante for the day :wall

+10000000000

Reba---you are very wise and I am trying my hardest to "stand against the erosion of the body of Christ."

Bless you my Sister in Christ. You are truly one in a million. :)
 

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