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You're relying an a theologian every time you use Strong's, Vine's, and every other Hebrew/Greek reference as well as when you're checking out parrallel translations on bible.cc

That is hardly true TL.

People like Young, Strong and Cruden are compilers of lists. I will be everlastingly grateful to them for the monumental work they've done without access to computers such as we have.

I have never read any of their theological works - in fact I don't know if they wrote any, nor do I care.

I use their lists, which anyone with a knowledge of English could compile (like Cruden did). Strong and Young go a bit further and add Hebrew and Greek to their wonderful works.

I never use Vine.

The lexicons are the work of people who are linguistic specialists, not theologians - though I am very guarded in my use of them, because they do sneak in the odd theological bit or two.

You condemn one group of Christians, for something you do yourself. You condemn Christians with years of dedicated history and study. You then try to correct them. Kind of like that kid in class that tries to teach or correct the Professor with the Ph.D

I don't condemn anybody TL.

I merely examine their opinions (whenever I happen to encounter them) with a very critical and scripturally educated eye. I then proceed to sieve out the rubbish, and accept the good.

I got into a regrettable row with Francis as you know, but that is an unusual happening. You must have noticed that I deliberately and carefully refrain from vituperation and insults - in meekness opposing those that oppose themselves, as Paul told me to do.

As a breed, I have no use for scholars, and I've given my reasons for doing so, which you clearly do not accept. I really don't care much.

I have probably spent more time concentrating on scripture itself than the vast majority of 'scholars' - who spend their time reading what other 'scholars' have written, and so get into ever-decreasing downward spirals, while ignoring the real purposes of scripture.

(PS, per the ToS, you need to site what Bible translation you are using if it's not the KJV)

My quotes are usually from the KJV - my all-time favourite version, backed up by the stalwart Revised Version in my Interlinear Bible.

The Online Bible is a major, valuable tool too, and I think I'm right in saying that whenever I use another version, I usually state what it is.

I may have missed that on the odd occasion, but I will mind my p's and q's much more carefully now you've mentioned it.

"The Angel of the Lord" is a title for God/Christ. It does not state that "an angel" is God.

Why do you say that?
 
That is hardly true TL.

People like Young, Strong and Cruden are compilers of lists. I will be everlastingly grateful to them for the monumental work they've done without access to computers such as we have.

I have never read any of their theological works - in fact I don't know if they wrote any, nor do I care.

I use their lists, which anyone with a knowledge of English could compile (like Cruden did). Strong and Young go a bit further and add Hebrew and Greek to their wonderful works.

I never use Vine.

The lexicons are the work of people who are linguistic specialists, not theologians - though I am very guarded in my use of them, because they do sneak in the odd theological bit or two.



I don't condemn anybody TL.

I merely examine their opinions (whenever I happen to encounter them) with a very critical and scripturally educated eye. I then proceed to sieve out the rubbish, and accept the good.

I got into a regrettable row with Francis as you know, but that is an unusual happening. You must have noticed that I deliberately and carefully refrain from vituperation and insults - in meekness opposing those that oppose themselves, as Paul told me to do.

As a breed, I have no use for scholars, and I've given my reasons for doing so, which you clearly do not accept. I really don't care much.

I have probably spent more time concentrating on scripture itself than the vast majority of 'scholars' - who spend their time reading what other 'scholars' have written, and so get into ever-decreasing downward spirals, while ignoring the real purposes of scripture.



My quotes are usually from the KJV - my all-time favourite version, backed up by the stalwart Revised Version in my Interlinear Bible.

The Online Bible is a major, valuable tool too, and I think I'm right in saying that whenever I use another version, I usually state what it is.

I may have missed that on the odd occasion, but I will mind my p's and q's much more carefully now you've mentioned it.

You're so blinded by your double standard, you cannot even see that you have a bias in the first place. What you have accused the trinitarians of doing in this thread, you are doing in this thread as well. You're the only non-trinitarian thread condemning theologians, who are learned and studied. You fail to realize that by doing this you lose your credibility and can no longer be taken seriously. You impair yourself.

Why do you say that?
It's obvious, that's why. Every instance of God manifesting Himself in the OT is exactly that, God manifesting Himself in the OT. Angels are angels; God is God. You can't mix up the two.
 
So God, the Jealous God, gives His worship, glory, praise, and authority to others?

Not at all. He sends His representatives who speak on His behalf - but who can, of course, never take His place.

You're a non-trinitarian who keeps espousing polytheism. You're giving non-trinitarians a bad name, bro.
Not at all. I am a monotheist, who believes very strictly exactly what the apostles and prophets believed. The best summary of my beliefs that I've ever seen is the Apostle's Creed, you know the one I mean: the one starting with 'I believe in God the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth...'

The clearest statement of my beliefs about the nature of God is given in 1 Cor 8.6:yet to us there is one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we unto him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things, and we through him.

So where you manage to get this polytheism nonsense from, I really don't know.

The Angel of the Lord is a title for God just as Jehovah Rapha. Using your line of "logic", Jehovah Rapha is another God.
No TL, The Angel of the Lord is His representative. There is no other God but One. The Lord and the scribe say it all, really:

29 Jesus answered, The first is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God, the Lord is one:
30 and thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength.
31 The second is this, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. There is none other commandment greater than these.

32 And the scribe said unto him, Of a truth, Master, thou hast well said that he is one; and there is none other but he:
33 and to love him with all the heart, and with all the understanding, and with all the strength, and to love his neighbour as himself, is much more than all whole burnt offerings and sacrifices.

This same line of reasoning is used in the Koran. Muhammed used it to force people to obey him. In Islam, obeying Muhammed is equal to obeying God. That, by default, makes Muhammed equal to God, but of course we know him as a mere false prophet.
I don't know what you're talking about.

Problematic, isn't it? When man usurps the power of God.
???

The Angel of the Lord is nothing but a mere title for God. You don't need to do back flips to arrive at that conclusion, but your conclusion comes with a heavy, heavy set of baggage to rummage through and explain.
This is wrong TL. The Angel of the Lord in Ex 3,4 is God's REPRESENTATIVE, who bears His Name. Like an ambassador, who speaks for his King and country.

Here's an example:

1Sa 25:9 And when David’s young men came, they spake to Nabal according to all those words in the name of David, and ceased.


I've shown you the passage where it's stated as clearly as humanly possible:

Ex 23.20 ¶ Behold, I send an Angel before thee, to keep thee in the way, and to bring thee into the place which I have prepared.
21 Beware of him, and obey his voice, provoke him not; for he will not pardon your transgressions: for my name is in him.

The prophets speak for YHVH, through the Holy Spirit, so yes it is most certainly YHVH Himself speaking because His Spirit is speaking.

(Judges 3:10) And the Spirit of the LORD came upon him, and he judged Israel, and went out to war: and the LORD delivered Chushanrishathaim king of Mesopotamia into his hand; and his hand prevailed against Chushanrishathaim.

(Judges 6:34) But the Spirit of the LORD came upon Gideon, and he blew a trumpet; and Abiezer was gathered after him.

(Judges 14:6) And the Spirit of the LORD came mightily upon him, and he rent him as he would have rent a kid, and he had nothing in his hand: but he told not his father or his mother what he had done.

(1 Samuel 10:6) And the Spirit of the LORD will come upon thee, and thou shalt prophesy with them, and shalt be turned into another man.

(1 Samuel 16:13) Then Samuel took the horn of oil, and anointed him in the midst of his brethren: and the Spirit of the LORD came upon David from that day forward. So Samuel rose up, and went to Ramah.

(Ezekiel 11:5) And the Spirit of the LORD fell upon me, and said unto me, Speak; Thus saith the LORD; Thus have ye said, O house of Israel: for I know the things that come into your mind, every one of them.
I agree fully. They are His Representatives, and are authorised to use Hs Name. They are empowered by the Holy Spirit, which as I've said, is the power of God, personified sometimes.
 
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You're so blinded by your double standard, you cannot even see that you have a bias in the first place. What you have accused the trinitarians of doing in this thread, you are doing in this thread as well. You're the only non-trinitarian thread condemning theologians, who are learned and studied. You fail to realize that by doing this you lose your credibility and can no longer be taken seriously. You impair yourself.

I don't make a big song and dance about it, but I am pretty well learned and studied too.

Any credibility I have must come from my use of the scriptures, not any degrees I may hold. 'To the law and to the testimony' is my credo, my authority and the source of my opinions: not some BD, DD, PhD or whatever else. For any other opinions, I care not at all.

As I've pointed out, Jesus was a carpenter, Peter, James, John were fishermen, Matthew a tax collector. No BD, DD PhD in sight - yet they turned the world upside down between them. What does that tell you?

It's obvious, that's why. Every instance of God manifesting Himself in the OT is exactly that, God manifesting Himself in the OT. Angels are angels; God is God. You can't mix up the two.

Perfectly true - but didn't I just hear you saying that the Angel of the Lord was God?
 
No TL, The Angel of the Lord is His representative. There is no other God but One. The Lord and the scribe say it all, really:

29 Jesus answered, The first is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God, the Lord is one:
30 and thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength.
31 The second is this, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. There is none other commandment greater than these.

32 And the scribe said unto him, Of a truth, Master, thou hast well said that he is one; and there is none other but he:
33 and to love him with all the heart, and with all the understanding, and with all the strength, and to love his neighbour as himself, is much more than all whole burnt offerings and sacrifices.

A representative who pretends to be God? You won't find one, representative of God, who ever "pretended" to be God. A prophet identifies himself as a messenger of God; an Ambassador of Christ identifies himself as representative of Christ. Never does any "representative" in the entirety of Scripture act and identify themselves as if they are God. You assign the angel of the Lord divinity and then saw "he? it?" is not God; just as you assign Jesus Christ divinity and then go on to state the He is not God.

Do you see the gymnastics of it all?

This is wrong TL. The Angel of the Lord in Ex 3,4 is God's REPRESENTATIVE, who bears His Name. Like an ambassador, who speaks for his King and country.

Here's an example:

1Sa 25:9 And when David’s young men came, they spake to Nabal according to all those words in the name of David, and ceased.


I've shown you the passage where it's stated as clearly as humanly possible:

Ex 23.20 ¶ Behold, I send an Angel before thee, to keep thee in the way, and to bring thee into the place which I have prepared.
21 Beware of him, and obey his voice, provoke him not; for he will not pardon your transgressions: for my name is in him.
A representative of the King does not pass himself off as the King. He comes "in the King's name" that's it.

Concerning the burning bush and Moses: Exodus 3:2 "And the angel of the LORD appeared unto him in a flame of fire out of the midst of a bush:" and then Exodus 3:4 explicitly states "And when the LORD saw that he turned aside to see," and Exodus 3:7 "And the LORD said," and Exodus 3:14 "And God said unto Moses" and Exodus 3:15 "And God said moreover unto Moses,".

There is no way around it. The LORD was there.
 
I don't make a big song and dance about it, but I am pretty well learned and studied too.

Any credibility I have must come from my use of the scriptures, not any degrees I may hold. 'To the law and to the testimony' is my credo, my authority and the source of my opinions: not some BD, DD, PhD or whatever else. For any other opinions, I care not at all.

As I've pointed out, Jesus was a carpenter, Peter, James, John were fishermen, Matthew a tax collector. No BD, DD PhD in sight - yet they turned the world upside down between them. What does that tell you?

God uses the strong and the weak. But when one accuses another's testimony as inferior; he makes his own just as inferior. That's where the credibility is lost.

Perfectly true - but didn't I just hear you saying that the Angel of the Lord was God?
The "Angel of the Lord" is a title for God= the "Angel of the Lord" is God.
 
Any credibility I have must come from my use of the scriptures, not any degrees I may hold. 'To the law and to the testimony' is my credo, my authority and the source of my opinions: not some BD, DD, PhD or whatever else. For any other opinions, I care not at all.
This is perhaps the single biggest problem in Christianity--the postmodern mentality which says we discover our truth. As a result are numerous false teachers, false prophets, and an all but completely fractured Church.

Asyncritus said:
As I've pointed out, Jesus was a carpenter, Peter, James, John were fishermen, Matthew a tax collector. No BD, DD PhD in sight - yet they turned the world upside down between them. What does that tell you?
And yet I have shown the problems with this argument.
 
so, God wouldnt have us try to learn via schooling to study the koine greek and etc.


hmm odd. any nut job with have a brain can make the bible apear to say what he wants it to.

paul wasnt exactly uneducated. he often used his teaching and knowledge of the torah/tanakh with the hs leading to expound upon the actual promises and statements there.

besides, we all have biases and we think that the hs said that and come back to it and oddly enough God said nope i didnt say that at all.

the more i read the word.the less i know.
 
Since this discussion is now flooded with trinity ‘proofs,’ I feel overwhelmed. Not because I can’t answer them all, but, since I am not allowed to give a link to the appropriate specific studies on my blog, because it would take forever to answer each one in the detail it requires. I will attempt to reply to a couple of them, and ask that anyone who wants a link to a file which covers these in more detail (or any of the other ‘proofs’ strewn here) to please PM me.

“In Matthew 28:19, the phrase: eis to onoma tou patros kai tou huiou kai tou
hagiou pneumatos,
‘in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy
Spirit,’ grammatically speaks for itself.â€

According to the rules here, we are supposed to tell what Bible we are quoting from (unless it’s from the KJV). So we are to believe that the above quote is from the KJV. It isn’t!

The KJV, like the RSV, NRSV, NAB, and NJB, actually reads: “…baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost [Spirit].â€



“3, A point that is often missed by the JWs is that Thomas addressed Jesus
as, "the God" ( ho theos). Most JWs misguidedly say that only
Jehovah is called "the God."





But as seen above, along with John 20:28, "ho theos" is also applied to Jesus at
Titus 2:13; 2 Peter 1:1; 2 Thess. 1:12 and Heb. 1:8 see the JWs own Greek text:
Kingdom Interlinear Translation where they correctly translated
these passages.â€

Sharp’s Rule is only applied by Trinitarian Bible translators to a few scriptures where it can be made to look like Jesus is God. In other places where there are so-called ‘Sharp’s Constructions’ this ’Rule’ is ignored by them. Even 2 Thess. 1:12 and Titus 2:13 are disputed as evidence by Trinitarian scholars. Ask for the link to the ‘Sharp’s’ study.

Heb. 1:8 is covered in my study of the same name wherein numerous Trinitarian scholars and translators disagree with its use as interpreted by other Trinitarians.

My study concerning John 20:28 shows that although Thomas is speaking to Jesus, he is not addressing Jesus as ‘lord of me and god of me.’ It presents several interpretations of this phrase (not a complete statement). One of them is that it is a doxology or praise for the Father similar to the literal translation of 1 Samuel 20:12.

Since it is in a ‘prepositional’ construction, the use of the article is ambiguous. Although it is likely that it means “God†here, it is grammatically possible for it to mean “god†because of the article ambiguity in such constructions. Please ask to get the link to the ‘My God’ study.
 
NOTE: many of the Trinitarian objections made by the JWs are typical of virtually every anti-Trinitarian group. This section does however focus on the Watchtower's booklet Should you Believe in the Trinity. For more exegetical responses to other anti-Trinitarian objections and assertions see: Oneness Objections to the Doctrine of the Trinity.
The Watchtower Bible and Tract Society (i.e., the corporate name of the Jehovah's Witnesses; hereafter JWs) prints enormous amounts of books, pamphlets, and literature teaching their members that the doctrine of the Trinity is a false doctrine. The JWs are taught that the Trinity doctrine originated from the Devil, and promulgated by the Catholic Church. To be sure, JWs have a gross misunderstanding of the doctrine, hence, since the early twentieth century the Watchtower has consistently taught that the Trinity is a false[SIZE=-1]:[/SIZE]
How strange that any should attempt to misuse and pervert these our Lord's words, to make them support the unreasonable and unscriptural doctrine of a Trinity--three Gods in one person (Studies in the Scriptures, 5:76).
Never was there a more deceptive doctrine advance than that to of the Trinity. It could have originated only in one mind, and that the mind of Satan the Devil (Reconciliation, 101).
Most JWs carry around with them their most popular handout booklet (and study guide) called: Should you Believe in the Trinity (hereafter SYBT). If you have ever discussed the Trinity with them, you probably have been given this booklet. The booklet provides the bulk of most arguments that they use against the "deceived Trinitarians" thus many dedicated JWs memorize the arguments stated in the SYBT.
Thirty-one pages of arguments against the "dreaded" doctrine of the Trinity. Chalk-full of misquotes and selective citations from various Encyclopedias, Dictionaries and biblical scholars. Additionally, the SYBT contains a mega-dose of blatant misrepresentations of early church Fathers, historic revisionism and doctrinal deviations. But yet to the JWs, the SYBT booklet is their gun-of-choice study guide to annihilate the "evil" Trinitarians. You might ask, why would they take this booklet seriously when it contains so much disinformation? The reason being: JWs do not practice independent research outside the libraries of their Kingdom Halls (the place where the JWs assemble). At the end of the SYBT booklet, it concludes by saying:
There can be no compromise with God's truths. Hence, to worship God on his terms means to reject the Trinity doctrine. It contradicts what the prophets, Jesus the apostles, and the early Christians believed and taught. It contradicts what God says about himself in his own inspired Word (31; under the title "Reject the Trinity").

JEHOVAH'S WITNESSES: OBJECTIONS TO THE TRINITY

(Based on the Watchtower publication: SYBT
and other standard arguments used by JWs)
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OBJECTION #1: THE WORD TRINITY
[SIZE=-1] [/SIZE]The SYBT says that the word, "Trinity" is not in the Bible."

RESPONSE: Also see the Oneness Objections to the Doctrine of the Trinity. As mentioned above In point of fact, virtually all anti-Trinitarian groups make this same objection.
To assume: what is not stated must not be true is an argument from silence. Further, to say that the doctrine of the Trinity is not true because the exact word "Trinity" is absent from the Bible is self-refuting. For if that kind of reasoning were true, it would then follow, that Watchtower doctrine could not be true, for in the original Hebrew and Greek text Watchtower terms like, “theocracy,†(which they claim their under), "Jehovah," (Note: "Jehovah" is an Eng. transliteration. Orig. Heb. had no vowels only consonants: YHWH) are not contained in Scripture either. It also does not follow that because a particular word is not contained in Scripture that we cannot use that word to communicate a truth of God.
What is not at all considered is that even terms like, "Bible," (a Lat. term) or "self-existent," are not mentioned in Scripture and both are biblical truths, which all JWs agree upon. If we were only limited to strict biblical words, then, we would have to, when teaching out of the New Testament, use only Koine Greek words that the New Testament authors utilized! Employing unbiblical words does not violate the rules of sola-Scriptura, which says Scripture alone is the sole infallible regula fidei ("rule of faith") for the church, as long as the unbiblical words are wholly consistent with Scripture. Holding firm to the regula fidei the early church would use unbiblical words to explain and define the biblical data revealed within the pages of the Holy Writ.
In other words, “Trinity†is merely a precise doctrinal word that defines the biblical revelation that is so overwhelmingly found in Scripture: God the Father sent God the Son; the Eternal Word, in which He became flesh (cf. John 1:1; 6:37-40; 17:5). After which God the Son died in the place of the believer whereby His death provides full atonement for the sins of His people (cf. Matt. 1:21; Rom. 8:32), and God the Father and God the Son sent the God the Holy Spirit to empower the church, and dwell with believers:

“When the Helper comes, whom I will send to you from the Father, that is, the Spirit of truth who proceeds from the Father, He will testify about Me†(John 15:26; emphasis added).

Again, this point must be understood: We cannot confuse biblical data with doctrinal words that merely define that data. The doctrine of the “Trinity†was derived from the Scriptural data. Biblical scholar Benjamin B. Warfield explains the difference:

Precisely what the New Testament is, is the documentation of the religion of the incarnate Son and the outpoured Spirit, that is to say, of the religion of the Trinity, and what we mean by the doctrine of the Trinity is nothing but the formulation in exact language of the conception of God presupposed in the religion of the incarnate Son and out poured Spirit. (Benjamin B. Warfield, Biblical Doctrines (Carlisle: The Banner of Truth Trust, 1929, 146.)
Thus the Tri-Unity of God is based on biblical data. The formulation of doctrinal words, however, came later when Christians, developed the precise term "Trinity" that simply defined the biblical data, because of the heresies that denied the biblical data in some way or other. As with the doctrinal terms like "Substitutionary Atonement," "Incarnation" or even the term "Gospel." All these terms came later after the apostolic age, which the church used to define the revelation or data that is clearly contained in Scripture.
Moreover, salvation is completely dependent on the Tri-Unity of God (i.e., soteriological Trinity). Example: The Covenant of Redemption, that is, all that the Father gives to Christ will come and He will raise them up at the last day (cf. John. 6:37ff). That Jesus is the Mediator between God (the Father) and man (cf. 1 Tim. 2:5) can only be true if Jesus is God and is a distinct Person from the one He is mediating for. Again, this point must be understood: we cannot confuse the Scriptural data of the Trinity with the doctrinal word, "Trinity" that defines the biblical data.
 
OBJECTION #2: PAGAN ORIGINS
The book also asserts, as do most anti-Trinitarians, that the doctrine of the Trinity is derived from pagan sources.
RESPONSE: This is a fallacy of false cause (misrepresents the cause). The Trinity is an utterly unique Christian doctrine. Pagans worshipped and believed in many gods (as with the Mormons) hence, the references in SYBT to the so-called parallelisms of the pagans were to THREE separate gods NOT one God in existing in three distinct Persons.


OBJECTION # 3: CHURCH FATHERS
The SYBT booklet asserts that the early (Anti-Nicene; before the Council of Nicene; A.D. 325) church Fathers did NOT believe in the doctrine of the Trinity.
The JWs booklet quotes from the Anti-Nicene church Fathers: Justin Martyr (c. A.D. 160); Irenaeus (c. A.D. 180); Clement of Alexandria (c. A.D. 195); Hippolytus (c. A.D. 205); Tertullian (c. A.D. 213); and Origen (c. A.D. 225). However when we refer to actual statements contained in many works (e.g., The Anti-Nicene Fathers, found at most city libraries and seminaries) clear is the fact: the SYBT booklet grossly misquotes or misrepresents what they said and believe. Not surprising is that the SYBT does not provide the addresses of the citations; for obvious reasons.

RESPONSE: This an argument from ignorance. They all, unequivocally, believed in the full Deity of Christ (the quotes below are from the Ante-Nicene Fathers [hereafter ANF], (ed. Alexander Roberts and James Donaldson; 1885-1887; reprint, 10 vols. Peabody, MA: Hendrickson, 1994).

Ignatius bishop of Antioch (
c. A.D. 105). The SYBT does not quote him, however, Ignatius was an early church Father that was a disciple of the Apostle John.
God Himself was manifested in human form for the renewal of eternal life (1:58).
Continue in intimate union with Jesus Christ, our God (1:68).
I pray for your happiness forever in our God, Jesus Christ (1:96).
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Justin Martyr (A.D. 150). The SYBT booklet says that Justin called Jesus "a created angel" (p. 7). Justin did call Christ an angel, however only in the sense that He came as a messenger, to the people of the Old Testament (e.g., the angel of the LORD who spoke to Moses and claimed to be the "I AM"; cf. Exod. 3:14ff; see ANF, 1. 223). The English word "angel" has the denotative meaning, in both Hebrew and Greek, as simply "messenger."
Jesus certainly was active in the Old Testament as a "messenger," and that is what Justin meant. John 1:18 says: "No man has ever seen God at any time; the only begotten God, who is in the bosom of the Father, He has explained Him." Jesus in the Old Testament interacted with the people of God (e.g., angel of the LORD; the Rock that accompanied the Israelites, see 1 Cor. 10:4).
Never once did Justin say or infer that Christ was created only the converse is asserted: Jesus Christ was the Eternal God. But again the quotes in the SYBT booklet are without addresses. Let us read what Justin really said:
He deserves to be worshipped as God and as Christ (1:229).
For Christ is King, Priest, God, Lord, Angel and man (1:221).
The Father of the universe has a Son. And He, being the first-begotten Word of God, is even God (1:184).
David predicted that He would be born from the womb before the sun and moon, according to the Father's will, He made Him known, being Christ, as God, strong and to be worshipped (1:237).

Next, the SYBT cites Irenaeus bishop of Lyons (c. A.D. 185), as saying that Jesus was inferior and not equal with the Father. However Irenaeus clearly believed and defined the full Deity of Christ:
I have shown from the Scriptures that none of the sons of Adam are, absolutely and as to everything, called God, or named Lord, But Jesus is Himself in His own right, beyond all men who ever lived, God, Lord, King Eternal, and the Incarnate Word… (1:449).
Thus He indicates in clear terms that He is God, and that His advent was in Bethlehem… God, then, was made man, and the Lord Himself save us (1:451).
He is God for the name Emmanuel indicates this (1:452).
Christ Himself, therefore, together with the Father, is the God of the living, who spoke to Moses, and who was also manifested to the fathers (1:467).
He was man, and He was God. This was so that since as man He suffered for us, so as God He might have compassion on us (1:545).
Clement of Alexandria (c. A.D. 195) who is cited as saying that Jesus, was not equal to the Father. But read what he actually said:
He is God in the form of man. . . the Word who is God, who is in the Father, who is at the Father's right hand. And with the form of God, He is God (2:210).
The Word itself, that is, the Son of God, is one wit the Father by equality of substance. He is eternal and uncreated (2:574)

Hippolytus (c. A.D. 203) is cited as believing that prehuman Jesus was created. But notice what this great Christian apologist really stood for and believed: Having been made man, He is still God for ever. For to this effect, John also had said, 'Who is and who was, and who is to come--the Almighty.' And he has appropriately called Christ the 'Almighty' (5:225)
They killed the Son of their Benefactor, for He is co-eternal with the Father (5:220)
For, as the Only-Begotten Word of God, being God of God, He emptied Himself, according to the Scriptures… (5:167)
The Logos alone of this One is from God Himself. For that reason also, He is God. Being of the substance of God. In contrast, the world was made from nothing. Therefore, it is not God (5:151).
Therefore, a man . . . is compelled to acknowledge God the Father Almighty, and Christ Jesus the Son of God--who, being God, became man, to whom also the Father made all things subject (Himself excepted)--and the Holy Spirit; and that these are three [Persons] (5:226).
"Go and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit." By this, He showed that whoever omits any one of these three, fails in glorifying God perfectly. For it is through this Trinity that the Father is glorified. For the Father willed, the Son did, and the Spirit manifested (5:228).
 
Tertullian [FONT=&quot]Carthage (c. A.D. 213) is cited next as saying, "there was a time that the Son was not" ( 7). However, what Tertullian meant (in his argument against the Modalism of Praxeas) was that he believed the Word was the Eternal God but yet distinct in His Person from God the Father, and that the Word took on the title "Son" which was a common belief among many church Fathers (esp. the apologists).[/FONT]
That Tertullian said that Jesus was created or came to be (in terms of His existence as a Person) is completely and diabolically distorting what Tertullian meant. In fact, it was Tertullian that first coined the word "Trinity" [FONT=&quot](Lat. trinitas, the cognate of Gk. triados) in the West. Odd that the SYBT booklet would even cite this church Father. Tertullian taught:[/FONT]
For the very church itself--properly and principally--the Spirit Himself, in whom is the Trinity [[FONT=&quot]trinitas], of the One Divinity: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit" (4:99; emphasis added; cf. Against Praxeas).[/FONT]
This opens the ears of Christ our God (3:715; cf. ibid.).
Surely I might venture to claim the very Word also as being of the Creator's [Father] substance (3:356; cf. ibid.).
Now, if He too is God, for according to John, 'The Word was God,' then you have two Beings-- One who commands that the thing to be made, and the other who creates. In what sense, however, you ought to understand Him to be another. I have already explained: on the ground of personality, not of substance. And in the way of distinction, not of division. I must everywhere hold only one substance, in three coherent and inseparable [persons] (3. 607; cf. ibid.).

It should be noted as well that in the East, as early as A.D. 180, church apologist Theophilus bishop of Antioch first uses the term “Trinity†to describe God:
In like manner also the three days which were before the luminaries, are types of the Trinity [triados] of God, and His Word, and His wisdom ([FONT=&quot]Theophilus To Autolycus 2.15, in ANF, vol. 3).[/FONT]
Origen (c. A.D. 228) was also cited by SYBT as denying that Jesus was God. However, Origen contradicts these Watchtower assertions:
The Word that was in the beginning with God (who is also very God) may come to us (4:449).
The Son is not different from the Father in substance (9:336).
Saving baptism was not complete except by the authority of the most excellent Trinity of them all. That is, it is made complete by naming the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. In this, we join the name of the Holy Spirit to the Unbegotten God (the Father) and to His Only-Begotten Son (4:252).
[SIZE=-1]
[/SIZE] [SIZE=-1] [/SIZE]My web space could never hold the libraries of quotations and apologetic works of church Fathers teaching and defending the Deity of Christ and the doctrine of the Trinity. To the church Fathers, teaching, and defending the Deity of Christ and the Trinity was extremely important to them. Many of them spilled their own blood defending these doctrines. Why? Because in Trinity is how God revealed Himself to man: FATHER, SON, and HOLY SPIRIT.


The SYBT ends this page entitled: "What the Ante-Nicene Fathers Taught" by this:

"Thus, the testimony of the Bible and of history makes clear that the Trinity was unknown throughout Biblical times and for several centuries thereafter" (p. 7).
Unknown?

OBJECTION #4: The Trinity doctrine did not emerge
until fourth century:

RESPONSE: To be sure, this is an argument from ignorance. First of all, it is completely misleading to say that the doctrine of the Trinity did not emerge until the fourth century. As seen above, in the East, as early as A.D. 180, church apologist Theophilus, bishop of Antioch, first uses the term “Trinity†to describe God:

In like manner also the three days which were before the luminaries, are types of the Trinity [triados] of God, and His Word, and His wisdom (Theophilus, To Autolycus, 2.15).

And, noted above, in the West, around A.D. 213, the brilliant church theologian and polemicist, Tertullian of Carthage, uses the term “Trinityâ€:

As if in this way also one were not All, in that All are of One, by unity (that is) of substance; while the mystery of the dispensation is still guarded, which distributes the Unity into a Trinity [[FONT=&quot]trinitas][/FONT] placing in their order the three Persons. . . . (Tertullian, Against Praxeas, 2, in ANF, vol. 3).
Again, it is true the exact English word “Trinity†is not in the Bible. But, as we have seen, this is a meaningless objection since there are many words that are justifiably used to communicate the truth of God, not specifically utilized in the Hebrew or Greek text (e.g., “incarnation,†“self-existent,†“omnipresenceâ€; etc.). The point being that the Christian church has used many extra-biblical terminology words to convey divine revelation. Sola Scriptura is not simply adhering to the words of Scripture, but it is also being faithful to the teaching of Scripture. Regrettably, far too many people are deceived into thinking that the latter must be rejected if it does not incorporate verbatim the language of the former.
Descriptive theological words do not necessarily have to be the exact words form the original languages to communicate a biblical truth. The reason that the Protestant church rejected (and rejects) the dogmas of Roman Catholicism is that Rome holds to the position that the Word of God is contained in both “tradition and Scripture.†Hence, Catholic doctrines like Purgatory, praying for the dead, the Immaculate Conception of Mary, ex cathedra, (i.e., the infallibility of the Pope), etc., are not doctrines derived from Scripture (the written Word), but rather church tradition.10 For these teachings are foreign to Scripture. Thus, the Protestant church repudiates that claim whereby holding to Scripture alone11 as the sole infallible rule of faith for the church—Scripture is sufficient. “Do not,†Paul says, “go beyond what is written†(1 Cor. 4:6 NIV).
We are dealing, therefore, with the biblical data for the Trinity. Again, the precise terms to which define the data (viz. formularized doctrine) came later. So the assertion that the Trinity did not emerge until the fourth century confuses the doctrinal word “Trinity†with the biblical data of God: the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, which, as we will enjoy shortly, the early church envisaged. They did not see God as a single undifferentiated Being, but the God who revealed Himself as tri-personal.
 
OBJECTION #5: THE CHURCH FELL INTO TOTAL APOSTASY [SIZE=-1] [/SIZE]JWs assert that the Early Christian church fell into Complete Apostasy after the death of the Apostles.

RESPONSE: This is an argument from ignorance. When did so-called apostasy happen? What year? In point of fact, there is not a shred of anything that would indicate or even infer that the entire Christian church fell into apostasy. The verses that they use say that only "some" will fall away or that "many" will abandon the faith but never once does Scripture say that ALL will apostatize.
To assert this notion is an "easy-out" for JWs that say that: The original Christian Church did not teach Jesus was God. Both Mormons and JWs maintain this idea of a total apostasy only to avoid the truth that the early Christians taught what Christians believe today: THERE EXIST ONE TRUE GOD and JESUS IS THE ETERNAL GOD DISTINCT FROM HIS FATHER.
If the early Christian church apostatized, why do we read in Revelation 2:1, that the Ephesus church was commended by God for not tolerating wicked men and testing those who claimed to be apostles but were false. And we read of six other functioning Christian churches. The point is this: the Apostle John wrote Revelation, in or around A.D. 90! That is sixty years after Christ!
So, did the entire Christian church fall after that? How could this happen? What does that say about the condition of the early Christians? Where they so spiritually bankrupt that they suddenly fell to paganism? Or suddenly just quit believing? What does that say about God? Could He not hold His own church together? Where is the evidence for this?
That the whole Christian church is even able to fall-away is notion that is sharply refuted by the apostles and Jesus Christ Himself:
Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God. . . . And Jesus answered and said unto him. . . . "That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it" (Matt. 16:16-18; KJV).
"All authority in heaven and earth has been given to me. Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age" (Matt. 28:18-20; emphasis added).
[SIZE=-1]
[/SIZE]
Jesus promised that He would never leave His church, nor would the gates of hell come against her. Likewise, the apostle Paul explains:
to him [Jesus] be the glory in the church and in Christ Jesus throughout all generations, for ever and ever! Amen (Eph. 3:21).
In contrast to the assertions made by the JWs, that His teachings were somehow lost, Jesus made a clear promise that His teachings would indeed last.
"You did not choose me, but I choose you and appointed you to go and bear fruit -- fruit that will last" John 15:16; emphasis added).
As seen above, the church Fathers from Ignatius, to the great defender of the Trinity, Athanasius, and after, believed and taught that: Jesus Christ was the eternal God Creator of all things.

Think about it, if there were no true Christians until the JWs emerged (1870), then, would it not follow that we would find distinctive Watchtower theology somewhere in church history? We have records of virtually every teaching that was prorogated from the first century. Where in church history though were the teachings of the JWs? And of course the Mormons (who make the same church fell in total apostasy claim) have the same problem: where was distinctive LDS doctrine before Joseph Smith (1830)?
Historically, we do have records of virtually every promulgated theology. However we do not have ANY historical record of distinctive Watchtower theology. Hence, are we to believe that for over 1800 years Jehovah did not have a witness until Charles Taze Russell (JW's founder) came on the scene? The only teaching that even resembles Watchtower theology (esp. Jesus as a created being) was Arianism.1 Accordingly, the Christian church roundly and sharply condemned Arianism because it denied Jesus Christ as eternal God, as the JWs teach.

OBJECTION #6: THE TRINITY IS THREE GODS
[SIZE=-1] [/SIZE]Most JWs grossly misrepresent the doctrine of the Trinity by asserting that the Trinity is three separate Gods.
RESPONSE: Again, this a typical straw man argument. The doctrine of the Trinity is not three Gods. The doctrine of three Gods is tritheism, not Trinitarianism. Three Gods is how Mormons view the Godhead. The foundation of the Trinity is pure ontological monotheism: ONE GOD. One Being revealed in three distinct Persons, coexistent, coequal, and coeternal.
 
OBJECTION #7: THE TRINITY IS ILLOGICAL [SIZE=-1] [/SIZE]The SYBT says that the Trinity is, "Beyond the grasp of human reason" (4). And that God is, "Not a God of confusion" (ibid.). From that line of thought, JWs will argue that Trinity cannot be true, it too confusing.

RESPONSE: For something to be illogical, it would have to contradict reason. The doctrine of the Trinity does not contradict reason. The Trinity is not 1 person in 3 persons or 1 God in 3 Gods. It does not follow that because something is not completely explicable that it cannot exist or cannot be true. For example, many of the formulations in physical science, not contrary to reason, and may be apprehended (though it may not be comprehended) by the human mind.2
Does anyone completely understand how light travels? Does it travel as a wave, corpuscular or quantum phenomenon? Yet, we believe in the reality of light, even though we cannot totally comprehend it.
The Trinity may not be totally comprehendible, but we can surely apprehend how God has revealed Himself to us through Scripture: There is ONE TRUE GOD; the Father is God the Son is God and the Holy Spirit is God. And the three are clearly differentiated. One God revealed in three distinct Persons. We cannot simply put God in easy-to-understand categories to gratify our feeble minds. We are called to worship God how He revealed Himself to us in His Word, anything less, is not worshipping, or honoring the true God.
The JWs reject the Trinity and hence they reject God. God is tri-personal He is not a unipersonal God as taught by the JWs. They are without excuse:
"Do you not know? Have you not heard? The LORD is the everlasting God, the Creator of the ends of the earth." (Isa. 40:28).
Objections to the Doctrine of the Trinity


Code:
http://christiandefense.com/jw_objecttrin.htm
Notes
[SIZE=-1]1, Early in the fourth century, Arius of Alexandria, postulated his teaching that Jesus was a different substance (heteroousios) than that of the Father. He used some of the same argumentation that the JWs use today. And of course, Arianism was completely refuted as heresy at the Council of Nicea ([/SIZE]A.D.[SIZE=-1] 325).[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]2, Example taken from: Robert M. Bowman, Jr., Why You Should Believe in the Trinity, An Answer to Jehovah's Witnesses (Baker House Books, Grand Rapids Michigan),
[/SIZE]
 
4, In Philippians 2:6 (NASB) the word translated "existed"
(huparch



ōn)
is a present tense participle that carries the meaning of continued
existence.
Jesus was always existing in the "form"
(morphē) of God or as the NIV translates: "Who,
being in very nature God." Jesus Christ is said to be the CREATOR of ALL THINGS
and not just a part of creation as the JWs confidently assert (cf. John
1:3; Col. 1:15-17; Heb. 1:2, 10).


An
Intermediate Greek-English Lexicon by Liddell and Scott tells us:

"[huparcho] ... to begin, make a beginning ... 2. to make a beginning of ... 3. to begin doing ... 4. to begin [doing] kindness to one ... Pass. to be begun" - p. 831, Oxford University Press, 1994 printing

Lk. 16:23 - "he lifted up his eyes, being [huparchon] in torment," NASB.

The person had not always been existing in torment or agony, but at some point had "come to be" in such a condition!


Ro. 4:19; 2 Cor. 8: 16-17 show the same understanding of huparchon as a condition which has begun.


Morphe
does not mean ‘nature’! If Paul, or any other Bible writer, had ever wished to use a word indicating the nature, substance, or essence of something, he could have used phusis or, possibly, even ousia.

"Morphe is instanced from Homer onwards and means form in the sense of outward appearance."- The New International Dictionary of New Testament Theology, 1986, Zondervan, p. 705, vol. 1.

Jesus is never called the CREATOR! He is described as one THROUGH whom creation occurred. This is understood in the same way that God’s Law was given to Israel THROUGH Moses - John 1:17, NRSV, NASB, etc.

“ALL†and “ALL THINGS†are frequently used for ‘some’ or ‘most’ as is commonly used even today - see Young’s Analytical Concordance, “Hints and Helps To Bible Interpretation,†Eerdmans Publ., 1970.

For example, the Theological Dictionary of the New Testament by Kittel and Friedrich (abridged in one volume by G.W. Bromiley) tells us of this word (‘all’) in the ancient Greek translation of the OT (the Septuagint): "In many passages, of course, the use is rhetorical". And in the NT this esteemed work tells us of the word "all" that it is often "used in the NT simply to denote a great number," not literally "all." -pp. 796, 797, Eerdmans, 1992 reprint.


It is common for us even today to say “all†when we mean all except me (and perhaps those with me). For example, The sergeant tells his men, “I want everyone in this room cuffed and jailed.†It is understood that the subject (the sergeant is exempt from “everyone in the room.â€
 
YES, YOU SHOULD BELIEVE IN THE TRINITY!!!
—A Page-by-Page Response To The Watchtower Society’s Brochure: “Should You Believe in the Trinity?â€
INTRODUCTION: WHY YOU SHOULD BELIEVE IN IT
“Do YOU believe in the Trinity? Most people in Christendom do. After all, it has been the central doctrine of the churches for centuries. ...Why should a subject like this be of any more than passing interest? Because Jesus himself said: ‘Eternal life is this: to know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom you have sent.’ So our entire future hinges on our knowing the true nature of God, and that means getting to the root of the Trinity controversy.†—Should You Believe in the Trinity?, 1989, p. 3
It has often been said that every theological heresy begins with a misconception of the nature of God. Therefore, it is of utmost importance that we have a clear and accurate understanding of the nature of God and the identity of Jesus Christ, for Scripture declares:
“But I am afraid, lest as the serpent deceived Eve by his craftiness, your minds should be led astray from the simplicity and purity of devotion to Christ. For if one comes and preaches another Jesus whom we have not preached, or you receive a different spirit which you have not received, or a different gospel which you have not accepted, you bear this beautifully.†—2 Corinthians 11:3-4
“For no man can lay a foundation other than the one which is laid, which is Jesus Christ.â€â€”1 Corinthians 3:11
“I said therefore to you, that you shall die in your sins; for unless you believe that I am He, you shall die in your sins.â€â€”John 8:24
At John 8:24, Jesus proclaims the seriousness of not believing He is who He claimed to be. He states: “…unless you believe that I am He, you shall die in your sins.†The reason the word “He†is italicized in the statement “I am He†is due to the fact that it is not found in the Greek text from which our English translations are derived. Thus, Jesus is literally proclaiming that He is the “I AM†of Exodus 3:14: “And God said to Moses, ‘I AM WHO I AM;…Thus you shall say to the sons of Israel, I AM has sent me to you.’†This is significant when we consider the fact that Scripture also proclaims that we must call on the name of Jesus in order to “wash away†our sins:
“And now why do you delay? ‘Arise, and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling upon His name.…to those who have been sanctified in Christ Jesus, saints by calling, with all who in every place call upon the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, their Lord and ours.â€â€”Acts 22:16; 1 Corinthians 1:2
What does it mean to “call upon the name of Jehovah†(Romans 10:13, NWT)? Every Jehovah’s Witness would testify that when Scripture states that we are to call upon the name of Jehovah, we are addressing our prayers directly to Jehovah God. In the same way, if someone states that he is “calling upon the devil,†he is proclaiming that he is praying to Satan. Thus, when Scripture states that we must “call upon the name of our Lord Jesus Christ†in order to have our sins pardoned, it is literally compelling us to address our prayers directly to Jesus, asking Him to be our Lord and Savior (Romans 10:9).
What brings one into a true relationship with Christ is not just “taking in knowledge†about the Father and Jesus. John 17:3 states, “And this is eternal life, that they may know Thee, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom Thou hast sent.†Vine’s Complete Expository Dictionary of Old And New Testament Words notes that the Greek word translated “know†(ginosko) in this passage “frequently indicates a relation between the person ‘knowing’ and the object known; in this respect, what is ‘known’ is of value or importance to the one who knows, and hence the establishment of the relationship.…such ‘knowledge’ is obtained, not by mere intellectual activity, but by operation of the Holy Spirit consequent upon acceptance of Christ.â€1. This is illustrated by the following true story:
One day in 1860, a huge crowd of people gathered to watch the famous tightrope walker, Blondin, cross Niagara Falls. It was a 1,000-foot trip, 160 feet above the raging water. The crowd followed every movement tensely. Step by step he moved forward. The people on the shore reacted nervously to every sharp motion of the balancing pole. But their fears and forebodings were unnecessary; the great Blondin not only went across safely but returned as well—to the great relief and admiration of the people.
Turning to the audience, he now made a sensational offer. He would cross the falls again, this time with someone on his back! Who was willing to go? No one rushed forward to accept the offer. Picking out a man at random, Blondin asked, “Do you believe that I am able to carry you across?†“Yes, sir,†came the unhesitating reply. “Well, then, let’s go,†Blondin urged. “Not on your life!â€â€”and the man withdrew into the crowd.
And so it went. One after another expressed great confidence in the tightrope walker, but they would not agree to let him take them across. Finally a young fellow moved toward the front of the crowd. Blondin repeated his question: “Do you believe I can carry you across safely?†“Yes, I do.†“Are you willing to let me?†“As a matter of fact, I am.â€
The young man climbed onto the expert’s back. Blondin stepped onto the rope, paused momentarily, then moved across the falls without difficulty. There were many in the crowd who believed that Blondin could do it. But there was only one who was willing to trust him to do it.
 
It is one thing to believe a number of facts about a person; it is quite another thing to trust yourself to that person. For instance, there are many who believe the basic facts about the Lord Jesus Christ: He is the eternal Son of God, lived a perfect, sinless life, paid the price not only for Adamic sin, but for all of our own personal sins (1 Peter 2:24), resurrected and returned to Heaven. Many believe that Jesus offers us the “free gift†of eternal life (Romans 6:23), and that He offers us His perfection in exchange for all our own personal sins (Colossians 3:3), yet they have never gone directly to Jesus and asked Him to be righteousness for them (Acts 22:16). Many believe Jesus can save them, but they do not let Him do it. Every person needs to come to the place where he is willing to “lay on the back of Jesus†and let Jesus carry him across the cavern of sin into the presence of the Father being clothed in Christ’s righteousness alone.
“Then he showed me Joshua the high priest standing before the angel of the LORD, and Satan standing at his right hand to accuse him. And the LORD said to Satan, ‘The LORD rebuke you, Satan!’…Now Joshua was clothed with filthy garments and standing before the angel. And he spoke and said to those who were standing before him saying, ‘Remove the filthy garments from him.’ Again he said to him, ‘See, I have taken your iniquity away from you and will clothe you with festal robes.’ â€â€”Zechariah 3:1-4
Belief in facts about the Father and Jesus, regular attendance at meetings and field service2. does not bring a person into a proper relationship with Jehovah God anymore than being in a garage makes a person an automobile. To come into a proper relationship with Christ, one must first acknowledge that he is under a double condemnation of death not only due to Adamic sin, but due to all his own personal sins and that there is nothing he can do to earn Jehovah God’s eternal life (Ephesians 2:8-9), for “all our righteous deeds are like a filthy garment†in Jehovah’s sight (Isaiah 64:6). Then, he must transfer his trust to Christ.
Just like the man who crossed the rope with Blondin had to lay his full weight on Blondin’s back and let him carry him across, we must place our full trust in Christ alone. If the man who crossed the rope with Blondin insisted on “doing his part†by walking behind Blondin instead of letting Blondin carry him, he surely would have fallen.
In the same way, we must trust Christ alone or we will “fall from grace†(Galatians 5:4), for we “stumble in many ways†(James 3:2). “For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God†(Romans 3:23). Only the people who have gone directly to Jesus, asking Him to impart to them His righteousness in exchange for their sins (Hebrews 10:10, 14) are the ones who have transferred their complete trust to Him and as a result have come into a personal relationship with Christ. It is my prayer that as you read this book, you will not only grow in your knowledge of God, but that your relationship with Christ will deepen as a result of a greater understanding of “our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ†(Titus 2:13).
This book is written to provide a detailed Biblical and scholarly response to the Watchtower Society’s arguments against the Trinity set forth in their brochure, Should You Believe in the Trinity? As the chapters of this book correspond with the major sections in the Society’s brochure, what follows is a page-by-page analysis of the Society’s claims along with supporting documentation which demonstrate the Society’s deceptive misrepresentation of many facts concerning the doctrine of the Trinity.
bullets.jpg
NEXT CHAPTER
============
1. Vine’s Complete Expository Dictionary of Old And New Testament Words, 1985, (Thomas Nelson Publishers), p. 346
2. “Field service†is the Watchtower term for going door-to-door.


Introduction - Why You Should Believe in the Trinity - Yes, You Should Believe in the Trinity!!! | Yes, You Should Believe in the Trinity
Code:
http://4witness.org/jwysbt/ysbt_intro.php
 
Morphe
does not mean ‘nature’! If Paul, or any other Bible writer, had ever wished to use a word indicating the nature, substance, or essence of something, he could have used phusis or, possibly, even ousia.

"Morphe is instanced from Homer onwards and means form in the sense of outward appearance."- The New International Dictionary of New Testament Theology, 1986, Zondervan, p. 705, vol. 1.
Or Paul could have used morphe. How convenient to quote one meaning from one source.

Php 2:6 who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped,
Php 2:7 but made himself nothing, taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men. (ESV)

"In the morphe of God...the morphe of a servant." Clearly most Greek words have more than one meaning and the meaning that is meant is largely, if not solely, based on context. God, as spirit, has no outward appearance. It is therefore most likely that Paul is referring to nature and character. This is supported by his direct comparison to Christ "taking the form of a servant."

Some points from a previous discussion:

1. Jesus was "in very nature God." Pretty self-explanatory.
2. Yet, he "did not consider equality with God something to be grasped," that is, something to be retained or forcibly held on to.
3. He, Jesus, "made himself nothing." (emphasis added) It follows that a) he had the power to make himself nothing, b) if he became nothing, he had been "something," and that something was his "being in very nature God."
4. His being made nothing is further explained as "taking the very nature of a servant," "being made in human likeness" and "being found in appearance as a man." This supports the notion that he had been something, he had been "in very nature God."
5. He "being found in appearance as a man, he humbled himself and became obedient to death." Again, pretty self-explanatory.

The translation of point 1 may be disagreeable (found in the NIV). If so then just refer to the argument preceding these points.

teddy trueblood said:
Jesus is never called the CREATOR! He is described as one THROUGH whom creation occurred. This is understood in the same way that God’s Law was given to Israel THROUGH Moses - John 1:17, NRSV, NASB, etc.
It really doesn't matter whether or not Jesus is referred to as the Creator. If all creation was created through him, which it is, as is stated several times in the NT, then he himself is uncreated. It is the only logical conclusion.

teddy trueblood said:
“ALL†and “ALL THINGS†are frequently used for ‘some’ or ‘most’ as is commonly used even today - see Young’s Analytical Concordance, “Hints and Helps To Bible Interpretation,†Eerdmans Publ., 1970.

For example, the Theological Dictionary of the New Testament by Kittel and Friedrich (abridged in one volume by G.W. Bromiley) tells us of this word (‘all’) in the ancient Greek translation of the OT (the Septuagint): "In many passages, of course, the use is rhetorical". And in the NT this esteemed work tells us of the word "all" that it is often "used in the NT simply to denote a great number," not literally "all." -pp. 796, 797, Eerdmans, 1992 reprint.


It is common for us even today to say “all†when we mean all except me (and perhaps those with me). For example, The sergeant tells his men, “I want everyone in this room cuffed and jailed.†It is understood that the subject (the sergeant) is exempt from “everyone in the room.â€
Your argument against the use of "all things" meaning "everything" as it pertains to Christ is very weak. "All things" can, and does, mean "all things," as in "everything". Again, context must taken into account:

1Co 8:6 yet for us there is one God, the Father, from whom are all things and for whom we exist, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things and through whom we exist. (ESV)

Clearly, in reference to the Father "all things" literally means "everything." As such, there is absolutely no basis to understand Paul as then using a different meaning in reference to Christ--the same sentence, speaking about the same thing.

Just as "from who are all things" implies that the Father is an eternal, uncreated being, so it follows that "through whom are all things" implies that Christ is also an eternal, uncreated being. The conclusion is inescapable and perfectly consistent and coherent with John 1:1-3 and Col 1:16-17.
 
TheLords

Please clarify why you believe that Jehovah the person is Jesus the person, and NOT the Father the person or the Holy Spirit the person.

FC
 
simple where the word LORD is used that is where the name YHWH is!

jesus claimed the same things as the LORD did.

jesus claimed to be the great shephard(el shaddai)
first and the last
these are just of the top of my head.
 

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