Religious Extremism

[Drummer4Christ]

I did not claim anything. I already explained what I think, and if you carefully review my previous post, you will find the answer to your question.

Was Revelation 19:11 divinely inspired? Yes or no.

 

[Drummer4Christ]

That is the point that I made and the reason I posted the verse. Anybody can misinterpret a book in order to commit evil. Drummer4Christ asked for a verse that promotes violence in the Bible. And R19 is the verse I gave him. I personally don't interpret R19 to mean that it is just to wage war against non-Christians. My point is that it is possible to interpret this verse in an "extreme" way.

No, I asked you to provide a teaching of Jesus that GWB took to the extreme in order to invade Iraq.

You cited Revelation 19:11, rather than the Gospels, because "according to Christians" the Bible is the divinely inspired word of Jesus (God).

If you do not believe that Revelation 19:11 promotes violence against anyone (especially Muslims) than why would you claim it was a teaching of Jesus that was taken to the extreme?

 

[Stormcrow]

We do believe that Jesus & Muhammad peace be upon them are brothers ..there is no difference between them ..

Source: PM I received.

It's this fundamental misunderstanding of who Christ is and who Mohammed was that lies at the heart of trying to get Muslims to understand the gospel!

Sure, Christ and Mohammed were the same except that Christ:

• Never married, (let alone a 6 year-old girl that he had sex with when she was 9!)
• Never forced anyone to believe in Him or YHWH, especially at the point of a sword!
• Never sinned at all, but cannot ever be said to have sinned especially when it came to issues like murder (see above) and pedophilia (see above, above!)
• Died for the sake of ushering His kingdom into the world and did not spread His word through violence!
• Was raised from the dead after sacrificing Himself for the sins of all mankind! (Mohammed is still in the grave!)
• Sent the Holy Spirit to guide us into all truth. What did Mohammed give the world? (See above!)

In short, Muslims claim to revere and respect Christ but then denigrate Him by making Christ the equal of a pedophile (someone who has sex with children!) and murderer!

Don't take my word for it: look up the history of Islam and how it was spread, then tell me there is no difference between Mohammed and Christ!

And to the person who e-mailed me...

I will not apologize for writing the truth. Furthermore, as for Allah guiding me "to the right path", I do not recognize Allah as any kind of deity whatsoever.

 

[Stormcrow]

And these are reports from just this year - most of them from the last few weeks:

Afghans [Muslims] kill 11 from UN after U.S. Quran burning
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2011/04/01/501364/main20049745.shtml

Coptic Christian Killed in [Muslim] Attack on Village
http://www.compassdirect.org/english/country/egypt/article_116115.html

Somali Muslims in Kenya Attack Another Christian
http://www.compassdirect.org/english/country/kenya/article_124462.html

Al Qaeda Cell in Turkey Accused of Planning to Bomb Churches
http://www.compassdirect.org/english/country/turkey/article_124391.html

Islamic Rioters Attack Christian Shops in Northern Iraq
http://www.compassdirect.org/english/country/iraq/article_124228.html

Muslim Extremists Destroy Lives, Church Buildings in Nigeria
http://www.compassdirect.org/english/country/nigeria/article_123859.html

Muslims in Pakistan Beat, Shoot at Christians in Land Grab
http://www.compassdirect.org/english/country/pakistan/article_123795.html

Police in Pakistan Beat Pregnant Christian, Husband for 3 Days
http://www.compassdirect.org/english/country/pakistan/article_123726.html

At Least 45 Christians Killed in Plateau State, Nigeria
http://www.compassdirect.org/english/country/nigeria/article_123658.html

Evangelist Shot Dead in Pakistan
http://www.compassdirect.org/english/country/pakistan/article_123411.html

Christian Areas of Jos, Nigeria Bombed, Killing One
http://www.compassdirect.org/english/country/nigeria/article_124540.html

Maldives: Teacher Deported

Last month, the Ministry of Islamic Affairs published new regulations under the Protection of Religious Unity Act of 1994. Anything that represents a religion other than Islam is strictly prohibited, according to Compass Direct News.

http://www.persecution.com/public/newsroom.aspx?story_ID=NDQx

Taliban murder British doctor who saved 2,000 Afghans
http://www.jihadwatch.org/2011/12/taliban-murder-british-doctor-who-saved-2000-afghans.html

Hamas marks 24th anniversary, boasts of killing 1,365 Israelis
http://www.jihadwatch.org/2011/12/hamas-marks-24th-anniversary-boasts-of-killing-1365-israelis.html

Indonesia: Islamic supremacists decapitate statue of Virgin Mary
http://www.jihadwatch.org/2011/12/i...macists-decapitate-statue-of-virgin-mary.html

Pakistan: Christian arrested for burning Qur'an pages after Muslim mob ransacks police station demanding arrest
http://www.jihadwatch.org/2011/12/p...slim-mob-ransacks-police-station-demandi.html

Raped and Ransacked in the Muslim World
http://www.raymondibrahim.com/9685/raped-and-ransacked-in-the-muslim-world

Abu Ishaq al-Huwaini:

If only we can conduct a jihadist invasion at least once a year or if possible twice or three times, then many people on earth would become Muslims. And if anyone prevents our dawa or stands in our way, then we must kill them or take as hostage and confiscate their wealth, women and children. Such battles will fill the pockets of the Mujahid who can return home with 3 or 4 slaves, 3 or 4 women and 3 or 4 children. This can be a profitable business if you multiply each head by 300 or 400 dirham. This can be like financial shelter whereby a jihadist, in time of financial need, can always sell one of these heads (meaning slavery) [translated by Nonie Darwish; original Arabic recording here].

Got infidels?

Such is the legacy left to the world by Mohammed.

I don't see so-called "moderate" Muslims denouncing this violence in the name of their "peaceful" religion. Makes one wonder if there are any...

 

[kidcanman]

You cited Revelation 19:11, rather than the Gospels, because "according to Christians" the Bible is the divinely inspired word of Jesus (God).

If you do not believe that Revelation 19:11 promotes violence against anyone (especially Muslims) than why would you claim it was a teaching of Jesus that was taken to the extreme?

Drummer4christ this is why your understanding of passages can't be trusted. You stated that I wrote "according to Christians" and then you state that I made the claim. Do you know what I meant when I wrote "according to Christians"? That means that I don't believe it. I did not make the claim that Jesus taught it. My argument is that "according to Christians" those are Jesus' teachings.

Forgive me if it seems as if I am harsh but I'm amazed that this is not clear to you .

 

[Drummer4Christ]

Drummer4christ this is why your understanding of passages can't be trusted. You stated that I wrote "according to Christians" and then you state that I made the claim. Do you know what I meant when I wrote "according to Christians"? That means that I don't believe it. I did not make the claim that Jesus taught it. My argument is that "according to Christians" those are Jesus' teachings.

Forgive me if it seems as if I am harsh but I'm amazed that this is not clear to you .

If Revelation 19:11 is not a teaching of Jesus, then whose "teaching" is it?

 

[Davies]

Stormcrow,

That is quite a list of articles you put together. I find when talking with Muslims, they have to be interested in what you have to say. You have to have a two way conversation rather than two one way conversations which is what I see here. Those who are hardened into their religion are normally closed. Doesn't mean we don't try to reason with them, or pray for them, but we have to respect their choice, as I'm sure God respects it also. For all I know, God has given them over to their reprobate ways in His anger, Romans 1. After we have pleaded with them, and if possible, plead with tears, then Revelation 22:11 will sum it up best.

- Davies
Revelation 22:11

New King James Version (NKJV)

11 He who is unjust, let him be unjust still; he who is filthy, let him be filthy still; he who is righteous, let him be righteous[a] still; he who is holy, let him be holy still.â€

 

[Stormcrow]

Stormcrow,

That is quite a list of articles you put together. I find when talking with Muslims, they have to be interested in what you have to say. You have to have a two way conversation rather than two one way conversations which is what I see here. Those who are hardened into their religion are normally closed. Doesn't mean we don't try to reason with them, or pray for them, but we have to respect their choice, as I'm sure God respects it also. For all I know, God has given them over to their reprobate ways in His anger, Romans 1. After we have pleaded with them, and if possible, plead with tears, then Revelation 22:11 will sum it up best.

- Davies
Revelation 22:11

New King James Version (NKJV)

11 He who is unjust, let him be unjust still; he who is filthy, let him be filthy still; he who is righteous, let him be righteous[a] still; he who is holy, let him be holy still.â€

Thanks, Davies.

I don't begrudge anyone the right to believe anything they wish, so long as what they believe is just that: a belief. The problem with Islam is that its adherents are not simply interested in believing what they believe, but that everyone has to believe as they do or - as noted in the last link in my post above - suffer slavery or death as infidels.

This is how Mohammed behaved, it's written in the Koran and - as we can see by the fruit Islam produces today - it's what they practice.

Not all Muslims behave as badly as others, but still, each sect of Islam - violent and non-violent - argues that it is justified by the Koran!

A Christian fundamentalist will follow the fundamentals of the Christian faith: believe in Christ, share His faith as a witness to Christ's love, attend church, and try to live a life guided by the precepts Christ set forth.

A Muslim fundamentalist - on the other hand - following the fundamentals of the Koran - is likely to engage in violent attacks against infidels, suicide bombings, terrorism while shouting "Allahu Akbar", car bombings, and - of course - flying passenger jets into buildings.

It's interesting to note that in the PM I received (noted earlier), the sender also wrote this:

[FONT="]Please don't hurt our feelings and please never say what you've said about my prophet.[/FONT]

Which begs the question, "or what?" Is this what we can attribute all of Islam's murderous barbarity to: "hurt feelings?"

How many of those Christians (and westerners) in Nigeria, Somalia, Afghanistan and Pakistan suffered or died over a Muslim's "hurt feelings?"

Is Islam nothing more than a bunch of scared, brooding children who are so insecure in their own beliefs that they cannot tolerate reading what others write about their "religion of peace?" How many innocents died in the Middle East today because someone in America wrote that Mohammed was a pedophile?

Would silencing the truth about him change the facts of history??? Of course not. Muslims just don't want their precious feelings hurt.

I would pity them if many didn't carry guns, bombs, or clubs and beat innocent men, women, and children to death in the name of "Allah."

Time for "infidels" to stop being silent about the barbarity of Islam. Maybe, just maybe, our collective voices can shame it into the 21st century.

 

[Nick]

There you go drummer4christ. Sinthesis believes that Jesus taught violence (of course he might deny it now that I have pointed it out). And not only that. But he also believes that according to Christianity, attacking a sovereign nation without first being attacked is justified. So is Sinthesis like mother Teresa or is he an extremist?

Way to twist scripture.

Rev 19:11 tells us that Jesus has the authority to Judge and make war. It never says that we do, nor does it contain teachings from Jesus that we should make war.

Whether the Bible as a whole teaches this or not is not the point. The point is that said passage doesn't. Please don't twist scripture.

Although all scripture is God-breathed, the speaker in Rev 19:11 is John.

 

[Stormcrow]

Way to twist scripture.

Rev 19:11 tells us that Jesus has the authority to Judge and make war. It never says that we do, nor does it contain teachings from Jesus that we should make war.

Whether the Bible as a whole teaches this or not is not the point. The point is that said passage doesn't. Please don't twist scripture.

Although all scripture is God-breathed, the speaker in Rev 19:11 is John.

Furthermore, America wasn't acting out of religious conviction when we sent our forces to Iraq to topple Hussein. We were acting out of our own national security interests. We didn't need the Bible to justify what we did to Iraq and Afghanistan after 9/11. We were provoked to war.

And for those who might quibble over our need to invade Iraq, I offer the following: I agree. Iraq was the wrong target. We should've gone after the world's largest financier of terror (Saudi Arabia) and the world's largest facilitator of terror (Iran.)

But then, that's just me.

 

[kidcanman]

Way to twist scripture.

Rev 19:11 tells us that Jesus has the authority to Judge and make war. It never says that we do, nor does it contain teachings from Jesus that we should make war.

Whether the Bible as a whole teaches this or not is not the point. The point is that said passage doesn't. Please don't twist scripture.

Nick if you read the previous posts, I mentioned to Drummer4Christ that I am not trying to prove that the Bible is a book that teaches violence. My point is that there are Christians who interpret the Bible in an "Extreme" way. Drummer4Christ insisted that I provide him with a Bible verse that teaches violence. It does not matter if I or you don't think that this verse teaches violence. The point is that it is one (among many) verse in the Bible that an "Extreme" Christian could interpret in a violent light.

 

[Nick]

Furthermore, America wasn't acting out of religious conviction when we sent our forces to Iraq to topple Hussein. We were acting out of our own national security interests. We didn't need the Bible to justify what we did to Iraq and Afghanistan after 9/11. We were provoked to war.

And for those who might quibble over our need to invade Iraq, I offer the following: I agree. Iraq was the wrong target. We should've gone after the world's largest financier of terror (Saudi Arabia) and the world's largest facilitator of terror (Iran.)

But then, that's just me.

I doubt that the primary reason to invade Iraq was religious. Religious motives may have been a small part, but I believe it was very much a political and security move. I don't believe it was the right move either, and to use Rev 19:11 to justify invading Iraq really takes some doing.

 

[Nick]

The point is that it is one (among many) verses in the Bible that an "Extreme" Christian could interpret in a violent light.

Welll so far I don't believe anyone in this thread has used Rev 19:11 to justify violence by Christians.

If you're so confident that it conveys a violent message for Christians, then please elaborate.

 

[Stormcrow]

"Extreme" Christian

{44} "But I say to you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, Matthew 5:44 (NASB)

{37} And He said to him, " 'YOU SHALL LOVE THE LORD YOUR GOD WITH ALL YOUR HEART, AND WITH ALL YOUR SOUL, AND WITH ALL YOUR MIND.' {38} "This is the great and foremost commandment. {39} "The second is like it, 'YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF.' {40} "On these two commandments depend the whole Law and the Prophets." Matthew 22:37-40 (NASB)

{8} But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. Romans 5:8 (NASB)

{9} Let love be without hypocrisy. Abhor what is evil; cling to what is good. Romans 12:9 (NASB)

{10} Love does no wrong to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfillment of the law. Romans 13:10 (NASB)

The problem with the world isn't that there are too many "Extreme Christians" but too few.

The problem with Islam isn't that there are too few "Extreme Muslims" but too many.

 

[kidcanman]

Welll so far I don't believe anyone in this thread has used Rev 19:11 to justify violence by Christians.

If you're so confident that it conveys a violent message for Christians, then please elaborate.

I did not state that somebody has used the verse in any way. And I also did not state that I think that it conveys a violent message. What I stated was that it is a verse that can be misinterpreted in a violent light. And of course that is obvious.

 

[Nick]

I did not state that somebody has used the verse in any way. And I also did not state that I think that it conveys a violent message. What I stated was that it is a verse that can be misinterpreted in a violent light.

And so can pretty much everything.

Not exactly a startling revelation.

 

[kidcanman]

And so can pretty much everything.

Not exactly a startling revelation.

And yet you still don't understand it.

 

[Nick]

And yet you still don't understand it.

Understand what?

Oh, and btw, you did accuse synthesis of using the verse to say that Jesus taught violence. My first post in this thread quoted you:

There you go drummer4christ. Sinthesis believes that Jesus taught violence (of course he might deny it now that I have pointed it out). And not only that. But he also believes that according to Christianity, attacking a sovereign nation without first being attacked is justified. So is Sinthesis like mother Teresa or is he an extremist?

 

[Stormcrow]

So is Sinthesis like mother Teresa or is he an extremist?

Does Islam even have someone like Mother Teresa that Muslims can use as an example of peaceful service and self-sacrifice, or do they have to keep borrowing Roman Catholicism's?

 

[kidcanman]

Understand what?

Thank you for magnifying my point.

Pretty much everything can be interpreted in a violent light. You stated that that is not a startling revelation.

And yet you still don't understand it.

Oh, and btw, you did accuse synthesis of using the verse to say that Jesus taught violence. My first post in this thread quoted you:

I do not deny that I did accuse him of it. See post #54.