Is faith or works necessary for Salvation ?

[glorydaz]

God's mercy is freely given because of Christ taking the Redeemer-Kinsman role.

Duties of Kinsman-Redeemers
By Wendy Anderson, eHow Contributor


The kinsman-redeemer is an important concept in both Jewish and Christian theology. For the Jew, the position of kinsman-redeemer was a legal one, with specific qualifications and specific responsibilities. For the Christian, this Jewish legal concept translates into a description of the purpose of the incarnation and a foreshadowing of the role of Jesus in the redemption of sinners.
Qualifications

To be a kinsman-redeemer, a man had to meet four specific criteria. He had to be a near kinsman, as set forth in Leviticus 25:25 and 48-50. He must, himself, be free. He must be able to perform the redemption. And he must be willing to perform the redemption. The qualifying process is illustrated in the book of Ruth, where both Boaz and another man qualified as near kinsman to redeem the land and Ruth. But the other man, though nearer in kinship, was unwilling to perform the redemption for fear of jeopardizing his own inheritance.
Rescue from Slavery

One responsibility of a kinsman-redeemer was to rescue his kin from slavery or captivity, or pay their way to freedom. This duty is detailed in Leviticus 25, though it was clearly a common custom prior to the codification of the Mosaic Law. Abraham fulfilled this responsibility when he rescued his nephew Lot from the Canaanite kings in Genesis 14.
Securing the Family Estate

If land belonging to the family had to be sold by a family member, the kinsman-redeemer was permitted, at any time, to restore it to the family. Land, in ancient Israel, could not be permanently sold. It reverted to the original owner at the year of Jubilee. However, a kinsman-redeemer could redeem the land prior to that time. In the book of Ruth, the land of Ruth's father-in-law, Elimelech, was one of the items at issue between Boaz and the other kinsman.
Avenger of Wrongs

The nearest kinsman was responsible to avenge the blood of a murdered kinsman. Leviticus 35:12-28, Deuteronomy 19:1-13, and Joshua 20:1-9 give the rules under which manslaughter (unintentional killing) was to be prosecuted and penalized. The Israelites were to establish cities of refuge to which a person convicted of manslaughter could flee. The killer had to remain in that city until the death of the high priest. If he left before that time, the kinsman-redeemer had the right to put him to death to avenge the wrongful death of his relative.



ehow.com

Wonderful find, Gazelle. I hadn't even thought of bringing up the nearest kinsman.

 

[Grubal Muruch]

Yep. We're to preach the Gospel...not Calvin or anyone else.

Contentions about which man to follow are spoken of here in Corinthians.

AMEN!!!

 

[francisdesales]

If you really believe the portion in red, then you're saying there was no need for Jesus to die on the cross.

Are you familiar with the CONCEPT of Love?

 

[francisdesales]

Really? You could begin here: http://http://www.mb-soft.com/believe/txh/proph.htm

Verses showing Christ is God:

http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/Believer%27s%20Corner/Doctrines/jesus_is_god.htm

]I am supposing that you either are brand new at this study, or you are merely wanting to stir a pot. If you truly wish to study, fine, otherwise, I'll not be responding to you.

Sometimes scholars like Grubal and I don't put the Scripture references when the verse is a commonly used one, or familiar to those who actually Read the Bible. ;)

This discussion is not about whether Jesus is God in the NEW TESTAMENT. Why you bring this up is beyond me, since we are speaking about the Jews of the OT and their KNOWLEDGE that God was merciful WITHOUT any knowledge of some perfect law follower before God could grant mercy. It has been repeated over and over again, I presume you could cull that from our discussions.

I have no intention of reading a variety of tracts. If you have evidence from the OT that the Jews expected a perfect law follower to exist so that God could then grant salvation, a REQUIREMENT BEFORE GOD COULD ACT, please provide the Scripture verses. I am not going off forum to criticize another's verses, ESPECIALLY if they are not even addressing my question that I have asked long ago...

And you can place the side of "self-righteousness" back in the pantry, please. If you think I am new at this, I give you permission to look at how many posts I have made and how long I have been on this forum. THEN, feel free to point out my error WITH SCRIPTURES, not with hearsay and "common knowledge" of what can be called traditions of men. It should be easy for a "bible scholar" like yourself to show me up...

Regards

 

[francisdesales]

God's mercy is freely given because of Christ taking the Redeemer-Kinsman role.

Duties of Kinsman-Redeemers
By Wendy Anderson, eHow Contributor


The kinsman-redeemer is an important concept in both Jewish and Christian theology. For the Jew, the position of kinsman-redeemer was a legal one, with specific qualifications and specific responsibilities. For the Christian, this Jewish legal concept translates into a description of the purpose of the incarnation and a foreshadowing of the role of Jesus in the redemption of sinners.
Qualifications

To be a kinsman-redeemer, a man had to meet four specific criteria. He had to be a near kinsman, as set forth in Leviticus 25:25 and 48-50. He must, himself, be free. He must be able to perform the redemption. And he must be willing to perform the redemption. The qualifying process is illustrated in the book of Ruth, where both Boaz and another man qualified as near kinsman to redeem the land and Ruth. But the other man, though nearer in kinship, was unwilling to perform the redemption for fear of jeopardizing his own inheritance.
Rescue from Slavery

One responsibility of a kinsman-redeemer was to rescue his kin from slavery or captivity, or pay their way to freedom. This duty is detailed in Leviticus 25, though it was clearly a common custom prior to the codification of the Mosaic Law. Abraham fulfilled this responsibility when he rescued his nephew Lot from the Canaanite kings in Genesis 14.
Securing the Family Estate

If land belonging to the family had to be sold by a family member, the kinsman-redeemer was permitted, at any time, to restore it to the family. Land, in ancient Israel, could not be permanently sold. It reverted to the original owner at the year of Jubilee. However, a kinsman-redeemer could redeem the land prior to that time. In the book of Ruth, the land of Ruth's father-in-law, Elimelech, was one of the items at issue between Boaz and the other kinsman.
Avenger of Wrongs

The nearest kinsman was responsible to avenge the blood of a murdered kinsman. Leviticus 35:12-28, Deuteronomy 19:1-13, and Joshua 20:1-9 give the rules under which manslaughter (unintentional killing) was to be prosecuted and penalized. The Israelites were to establish cities of refuge to which a person convicted of manslaughter could flee. The killer had to remain in that city until the death of the high priest. If he left before that time, the kinsman-redeemer had the right to put him to death to avenge the wrongful death of his relative.



ehow.com

Where is there any mention of a perfect kinsman providing redemption in the idea mentioned by "ehow.com"??? HOW does this prove that God was subject to some law of justice that required a perfect "kinsman" of the Jews before God could grant mercy???

We just don't see it, do we... But according to glorydaz, God must first have His perfect law follower so that glorydaz' idea of God's justice is kept.

What is amazing to me is that God NEVER STATES this requirement in the OT. Yet, He is found granting mercy left and right!!!

Regards

 

[francisdesales]

You're speaking of some men's understanding of mercy, and I'm speaking of God's.

No, you are speaking of YOUR ideas of mercy. I have given you an example of God's mercy, and so has Jason... From both the OT and the NT.

I have even given you an example of man's mercy that turns your silly definition upside down. But you won't admit it.

God's ways are higher than man can understand with any amount of common sense.

TThat doesn't prove your point, does it? When the Lord said that, He meant that God's ways are HIGHER than man's ways, not that we couldn't understand them.

What you show by giving a homeless man some food, is compassion not mercy...by a Biblical definition.

Mercy = compassion. The word is interchangeable.

Jesus coming to the cross was God's mercy to us - punishment withheld until judgment is administered.

So you continue to think without evidence of it.

God's Justice required a payment for man's sins before they could be reconciled to Him

Where does the Bible state this "REQUIREMENT"?

And payment to WHOM???

Thus Jesus Christ offered Himself...the spotless lamb. He redeemed man....with His own blood.

Out of love, not requirement. God is not "REQUIRED" to do ANYTHING you have stated so far...

merely repeating the party line does NOT prove a thing. That's all you have been doing now, desperately hoping that SOMETHING will "stick"... But in the last 10 days or so, have you actually added anything to prove your argument, at ALL???

I think not. You just keep repeating it and hoping that just saying it will prove something.

 

[glorydaz]

No, you are speaking of YOUR ideas of mercy. I have given you an example of God's mercy, and so has Jason... From both the OT and the NT.

No, I haven't been shown any examples that weren't involving punishment being withheld.
Mercy is punishment withheld. I keep telling you to look at the Mercy Seat if you want to see what Mercy is all about. All your do-gooder ideas about mercy are not God's. His are straight-forward with pictures included.

If you'd rather look at a dictionary, here are the first 3 definitions. You continue to speak of the dispostion of the giver of mercy. I have pointed out the offender and why he needs mercy. You'll see the offenders in red. Do you see any hungry bums there? There are many who cry out for mercy in the Bible....you have to look at the reasons they need mercy. The one crying for mercy has sinned, and that's why you'll find repentance when you see mercy. Without repentance, God does not show mercy.

Now remember....God is the JUDGE OF THE WHOLE EARTH.

We were offenders and enemies of God until the cross.
compassionate or kindly forbearance shown toward an offender, an enemy, or other person in one's power;

(this is showing the disposition of the giver)
the disposition to be compassionate or forbearing: an adversary wholly without mercy.

God is the JUDGE....Jesus is the MERCY SEAT
the discretionary power of a judge to pardon someone or to mitigate punishment, especially to send to prison rather than invoke the death penalty.

 

[glorydaz]

Out of love, not requirement. God is not "REQUIRED" to do ANYTHING you have stated so far...

merely repeating the party line does NOT prove a thing.

No, God is not required to do anything. We're talking about what God requires.

God requires His Law to be satisfied.

God required a perfect sacrifice for sin.



And, Joe, I'm not the one with a "party line". You are. ;)

I belong to no church organization, I follow no church rules...I simply read and trust in the Word of God.

 

[francisdesales]

No, I haven't been shown any examples that weren't involving punishment being withheld.

Yea, you have.

Exodus?

What punishment was God withholding again?

I also pointed you to the parable of the wicked servant.

In reality, Jesus NEVER mentions any such need for satisfaction before God grants mercy and forgiveness. Would you like a laundry list of Jesus' teachings on the subject??? I have already done the research for you.

Mercy is punishment withheld. I keep telling you to look at the Mercy Seat if you want to see what Mercy is all about.

Already answered like 5 times.

Ritual purity is not moral purity.

All your do-gooder ideas about mercy are not God's.

You got it backwards, because the Bible rarely talks about satisfaction as a necessity before God grants mercy. If you think so, provide me with an example.

His are straight-forward with pictures included.

Oh, I guess I don't have the Bible with the pictures in it... ;)

If you'd rather look at a dictionary, here are the first 3 definitions.

Where are they from? I don't see any citation of your source.

Now remember....God is the JUDGE OF THE WHOLE EARTH.

Have I said anything to cast that into doubt? Hardly.

Try to remain on subject and address my concerns:

Your inability to show, from Scriptures, where God demands satisfaction before granting mercy. OR the necessity of a perfect Law follower to meet that satisfaction. It is just not there!

Regards

 

[francisdesales]

No, God is not required to do anything. We're talking about what God requires.

God requires His Law to be satisfied.

Which part of the law states that God only grants mercy if it is 100% perfectly fulfilled?

Stop telling me and start showing me

God required a perfect sacrifice for sin.

Stop telling me and start showing me

And, Joe, I'm not the one with a "party line". You are. ;)

No need to be in denial...

Am I to believe that you came to these conclusions on your own "reading of the Bible"??? Baloney.

If so, simply show me and stop babbling the party line...

Regards

 

[Grubal Muruch]

[/B]

Which part of the law states that God only grants mercy if it is 100% perfectly fulfilled?

Stop telling me and start showing me

[/B]

Stop telling me and start showing me




No need to be in denial...

Am I to believe that you came to these conclusions on your own "reading of the Bible"??? Baloney.

If so, simply show me and stop babbling the party line...

Regards

1 Peter 1:19----"But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot"

 

[francisdesales]

1 Peter 1:19----"But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot"

As I told glorydaz, i will tell you..

Christ's blood was shed out of love, not out of requirement to a blood thirsty God's demand for utter perfection before salvation could be granted. Nor was Christ's blood shed to fulfill some "law" requirement of justice!!! That's insane, when you think about it, God killing His beloved Son to placate a 'force' or an 'idea'... This is an incredible misunderstanding of justice...

The purpose of Christ's vicarious death was to intercede for our sake, not to demand payment or meet a payment owed to "something".

Christ's blood is preciously spent, and the two of you have changed it from a willing sacrifice of love to a forced execution to assuage God's demands for perfection from SOMEONE. Happily for mankind, the Bible never points to God in this manner. God is not a blood-thirsty God awaiting a human sacrifice of blood. How could a Christian even think such silliness?

God does not NEED sacrifice or blood. God does not NEED perfect satisfaction. God accepts the offering of the High Priest in the Temple not built by human hands, an INTERCESSION pleading for mercy from the Father.

And the Father freely grants that mercy, based upon the INCREDIBLY self-less sacrifice for the sake of mankind. There is no law requirements, no satisfaction of a perfect justice. Such ideas are HUMAN PRESUMPTIONS unfounded upon Sacred Scriptures...

To put it bluntly, your citation has no value in upholding some phony requirement of blood from God. It tells us the value of the FREELY offered sacrifice. We have been purchased at a great price! A price that the Lover pays for the sake of the Beloved, not to satisfy some blood lust.

Regards

 

[Grubal Muruch]

As I told glorydaz, i will tell you..

Christ's blood was shed out of love, not out of requirement to a blood thirsty God's demand for utter perfection before salvation could be granted. Nor was Christ's blood shed to fulfill some "law" requirement of justice!!! That's insane, when you think about it, God killing His beloved Son to placate a 'force' or an 'idea'... This is an incredible misunderstanding of justice...

The purpose of Christ's vicarious death was to intercede for our sake, not to demand payment or meet a payment owed to "something".

Christ's blood is preciously spent, and the two of you have changed it from a willing sacrifice of love to a forced execution to assuage God's demands for perfection from SOMEONE. Happily for mankind, the Bible never points to God in this manner. God is not a blood-thirsty God awaiting a human sacrifice of blood. How could a Christian even think such silliness?

God does not NEED sacrifice or blood. God does not NEED perfect satisfaction. God accepts the offering of the High Priest in the Temple not built by human hands, an INTERCESSION pleading for mercy from the Father.

And the Father freely grants that mercy, based upon the INCREDIBLY self-less sacrifice for the sake of mankind. There is no law requirements, no satisfaction of a perfect justice. Such ideas are HUMAN PRESUMPTIONS unfounded upon Sacred Scriptures...

To put it bluntly, your citation has no value in upholding some phony requirement of blood from God. It tells us the value of the FREELY offered sacrifice. We have been purchased at a great price! A price that the Lover pays for the sake of the Beloved, not to satisfy some blood lust.

Regards

Dear Fran, Hebrews 9:22 instructs us, as follows, "And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission." Blood was required in the Old Testament and the new Testament. In the Old T a flawless animal's blood was shed (looking forward in time to the "ultimate" sacrifice of Christ) The O.T had the shedding of animal blood, the N.T. required the blood of Christ...

 

[francisdesales]

Dear Fran, Hebrews 9:22 instructs us, as follows, "And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission." Blood was required in the Old Testament and the new Testament. In the Old T a flawless animal's blood was shed (looking forward in time to the "ultimate" sacrifice of Christ) The O.T had the shedding of animal blood, the N.T. required the blood of Christ...

Required by the Law, not by God.

almost all things are by the law purged with blood

God has already told man that He does not require the blood of animals.

The shedding of blood marks the establishment of the covenant. Considering that Christ's work is "one time", as the High Priest, He doesn't have to re-establish the covenantal relationship over and over, as the regular priests who eventually died.

Again, you have God as a blood thirsty God who desires blood. One must wonder about how that matches with the God described in Sacred Scriptures, the God of Love...

Regards

 

[glorydaz]

Required by the Law, not by God.

almost all things are by the law purged with blood

God has already told man that He does not require the blood of animals.

The shedding of blood marks the establishment of the covenant. Considering that Christ's work is "one time", as the High Priest, He doesn't have to re-establish the covenantal relationship over and over, as the regular priests who eventually died.

Again, you have God as a blood thirsty God who desires blood. One must wonder about how that matches with the God described in Sacred Scriptures, the God of Love...

Regards

God's moral law is eternal. You're having to deny most of the Bible if you deny God required blood to cover sin.

Get out the white-out and get busy, because there's a lot about God that doesn't fit into your picture of Him.

As I said...His ways are not ours, and when you try to fit God into your ideal of Him you're going to be very disappointed. I'm surprised you don't believe in universal salvation since God is only Love.

PS - Christ's work was one-time, and that one time required His blood to be shed.

 

[glorydaz]

As I told glorydaz, i will tell you..

Christ's blood was shed out of love, not out of requirement to a blood thirsty God's demand for utter perfection before salvation could be granted. Nor was Christ's blood shed to fulfill some "law" requirement of justice!!! That's insane, when you think about it, God killing His beloved Son to placate a 'force' or an 'idea'... This is an incredible misunderstanding of justice...

The purpose of Christ's vicarious death was to intercede for our sake, not to demand payment or meet a payment owed to "something".

Christ's blood is preciously spent, and the two of you have changed it from a willing sacrifice of love to a forced execution to assuage God's demands for perfection from SOMEONE. Happily for mankind, the Bible never points to God in this manner. God is not a blood-thirsty God awaiting a human sacrifice of blood. How could a Christian even think such silliness?

God does not NEED sacrifice or blood. God does not NEED perfect satisfaction. God accepts the offering of the High Priest in the Temple not built by human hands, an INTERCESSION pleading for mercy from the Father.

And the Father freely grants that mercy, based upon the INCREDIBLY self-less sacrifice for the sake of mankind. There is no law requirements, no satisfaction of a perfect justice. Such ideas are HUMAN PRESUMPTIONS unfounded upon Sacred Scriptures...

To put it bluntly, your citation has no value in upholding some phony requirement of blood from God. It tells us the value of the FREELY offered sacrifice. We have been purchased at a great price! A price that the Lover pays for the sake of the Beloved, not to satisfy some blood lust.

Regards

Since there is only ONE God, He sacrificed Himself. I think God knows better than you do what needed to be done, even if it does offend your sensibilities. The sins of the world could not be redeemed with love...that's just the way God set it up. Take off your rose-colored glasses, Joe, and be washed in the blood of the Lamb. It won't be such a horrible thing if you do.

 

[Grubal Muruch]

Since there is only ONE God, He sacrificed Himself. I think God knows better than you do what needed to be done, even if it does offend your sensibilities. The sins of the world could not be redeemed with love...that's just the way God set it up. Take off your rose-colored glasses, Joe, and be washed in the blood of the Lamb. It won't be such a horrible thing if you do.

AMEN

 

[francisdesales]

God's moral law is eternal. You're having to deny most of the Bible if you deny God required blood to cover sin.

??? :eeeekkk

You are confusing the moral law with ceremonial laws. As I told you before, laws of cult (public worship) are not the same thing as moral laws. And SURELY, you MUST know that these cultic laws do not apply to God???

SURELY you must know that God is not required to sacrifice bulls and blood?

SURELY???

Mosaic Law does not apply to God

Get out the white-out and get busy, because there's a lot about God that doesn't fit into your picture of Him.

Clearly, you are clueless. Anyone following this thread can see that you are way off base. They will also note that you provide no Scriptures to back up your own personal musings...

As I said...His ways are not ours,

They aren't. I agree. That is why we must dispense of your idea of justice. Immediately. Before more Christians' ears are tickled by that false gospel you preach.

PS - Christ's work was one-time, and that one time required His blood to be shed.

To pay the devil, right? Yes, we are well aware of your thinking that God was bound by the Mosaic cultic laws

 

[francisdesales]

Since there is only ONE God, He sacrificed Himself. I think God knows better than you do what needed to be done, even if it does offend your sensibilities.

It is YOUR sensibilities that are offended, glorydz :bigfrown

YOU are the one who thinks God demands BLOOD!!! Even from Himself!!!

YOU are the one who cannot accept the simple idea that repentance brings mercy from God without the need for perfect satisfaction, despite numerous Scriptural citations. YOUR ideas of "righteousness" are being offended, not mine or God's!!!

YOU are the one who claims God is a blood thirsty God who desires the blood of animals and His only Son - apparently, to pay the Mosaic Law's demands!!!

The sins of the world could not be redeemed with love...

It seems that you are a loveless individual who has not experienced God's Love. That's too bad, for if you did, you would understand its power to forgive and be redeemed and be renewed... The heart of the Gospel is clearly lost on you.

Take off your rose-colored glasses, Joe, and be washed in the blood of the Lamb. It won't be such a horrible thing if you do.

I have been washed with the blood of the Lamb. It was the sacrifice of Love FREELY offered, not required by some (cue the scary music) "LAW" that binds the GOD OF THE UNIVERSE!!!

 

[Danus]

Back to the OP; "Is faith or works necessary for Salvation ?"....by all accounts, there are some in here, based on their own explaination of salvation from the start of this, that should belive that works are required for salvation, yet I've not heard anyone own up to that. .....Odd