Grubal Muruch
Member
Some believe "faith" is a necessity to being saved, others believe works are necessary. which do you believe ?
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As you know, I believe this question poses a false choice.Some believe "faith" is a necessity to being saved, others believe works are necessary. which do you believe ?
As you know, I believe this question poses a false choice.
One cannot presume that this is an "either / or" issue.
This is one of the most pervasively misunderstood texts in the whole Bible.I'm requesting this be moved to the A&T section However I want to tackle this just a bit.
GM's question is not a false dilemma because he is asking "Is faith or works necessary for salvation?" However....it can be seen as a false dilemma if we expand on it, which is what he most likely intends to do anyway.
When it comes to salvation and faith and works, I think there is one very powerful piece of scripture that sums it up.
Ephesians 2:8-9: 9For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast.
As you know, I believe this question poses a false choice.
One cannot presume that this is an "either / or" issue.
Paul's position is, I believe, that faith results in the gift of the Spirit which changes a person's life so that they will generally persist in doing good. And what is the result that persistence? Paul tells here:
To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life
It is difficult to respond to this, since you are clearly not reading the text properly.It's not "Our" persistence in doing good works that saves us. It's the sacrifice Christ did on the cross that saves us... Paul is talking about the "characteristics" of a true believer. He does good works, seeks glory, honor, etc... It's not the works of a man that gains him eternal life, it's the fact that he is, "in Christ" that matters...
This is one of the most pervasively misunderstood texts in the whole Bible.
Paul is not denying salvation by "good works", he is denying that salvation by doing the works of the Law of Moses.
The material that follows 2:8-10 makes no sense if "good works" are in view in 2:8-10. More specifically, if the justification value of "good works" is being denied, why does Paul use a "therefore" transitional in verse 11 to conclude that the Gentile now has access to the covenant promises (including, of course, final justification) specifically because a dividing line between Jew and Gentile has been dissolved? After all, the dividing line is, of course, not the “good works†line, it is the “works of Law of Moses†line.
<o</oThere is indeed a sense in which the standard reformed reading of this could be salvaged (although this ultimately does not work as we will shortly see). If Paul says “no one is justified by good works, therefore remember that the Jew-Gentile barrier has been destroyedâ€, he could mean that there is some difference between the Jew and the Gentile in respect to doing good works, but this difference is irrelevant since good works do not justify.
<o</oIn other words, he could be saying: "Listen you Gentiles, you need not do the good works that the Jews are doing to be saved since good works do not save anyway, therefore...you are not foreigners to the covenants of the promise, etc., etc.)â€
But, of course, Paul does not believe this - he believes that Jew and Gentile alike are in sin. So it makes no sense for Paul, if he has really asserted that "good works" do not save, to then say "thereforeyou Gentiles now have hope since the barrier between Jew and Gentile has been destroyed, etc. etc." Why does this not make sense? Obviously, because Jew and Gentile are on equal footing in respect to "good works" – neither does enough good works to save.
Paul is therefore obviously talking about the works of the Law of Moses in 2:8-10. Then the "therefore" stuff makes sense since the Law of Moses is indeed the thing that divides Jew from Gentile and is the basis for the Gentile believing that he is on the outside in respect to the covenant promises.
Paul means what he says in Romans 2:7
To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life
Danus, let me ask you this question: What do you think Paul is saying in this statement from Romans 2?
It's not "Our" persistence in doing good works that saves us. It's the sacrifice Christ did on the cross that saves us... Paul is talking about the "characteristics" of a true believer. He does good works, seeks glory, honor, etc... It's not the works of a man that gains him eternal life, it's the fact that he is, "in Christ" that matters...
It is difficult to respond to this, since you are clearly not reading the text properly.
The text is not, as you suggest, a description of the characteristics of the believer.
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I'm requesting this be moved to the A&T section However I want to tackle this just a bit.
GM's question is not a false dilemma because he is asking "Is faith or works necessary for salvation?" However....it can be seen as a false dilemma if we expand on it, which is what he most likely intends to do anyway.
When it comes to salvation and faith and works, I think there is one very powerful piece of scripture that sums it up.
Ephesians 2:8-9: 9For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast.
So, then the expansion does involve works, but those works are a result of faith.
GM believes that faith is something one musters up within themselves by their own effort and in so doing faith is the work of the individual rather than a gift from God. That right GM?
No. I was addressing his chosen Scripture...I think GM is speaking in a broad sense, not necessarily addressing a specific scripture.
It is difficult to respond to this, since you are clearly not reading the text properly.
The text is not, as you suggest, a description of the characteristics of the believer.
It is what it is - a statement about who gets eternal life. And the ones who get that life are the ones who persist in doing good.
Now we agree - only those with faith will do these good works. But you cannot re-work the text. It clearly asserts that the "criteria" for the awarding of eternal life is "persistence in doing good". In fact, the preceding verse makes it clear beyond doubt that the eternal life is granted ACCORDING TO what we have done:
God “will repay each person according to what they have done
Let's focus on where we agree - we agree that the only persons who will "persist in doing good" are "faith-grounded Christians". So in that sense "faith" ensures final salvation.
But the text still says what it says - the thing that God looks at to award eternal life is "persistence in doing good".
The Scripture you speak of is, Ephesians 2:8-9 which states, "For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; ( What is not of ourselves ? the answer is, "grace" and not our works) it is the gift of God, (what IS the gift of God ? "God's grace" is the gift, it's not speaking about faith here, it speaks of God's grace as being the "gift") not of works, lest anyone should boast...
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no my friend. the "That" is referring to efforts of our own. And it includes what we think is our own faith. two thing that are gifts from God, grace and faith.
Your correct when you say the "that" is referring to efforts of our own. That's "not" what I was disputing however. That were agreeing upon. But did you read the rest of my interpretation ?
no my friend. the "That" is referring to efforts of our own. And it includes what we think is our own faith. two thing that are gifts from God, grace and faith.