mormonism

[By Grace]

A lot of uninformed assumptions here I thought I would respond to.

1. Nowhere in LDS writings does it say that Lucifer or Satan is the brother of Jesus. This is a logical conclusion that can come from real LDS teachings, I agree. But it is just as easily concluded by Biblical teachings.

Satan claims to be the Son, Moses 1:19 (Moses 5:13).

There are LOTS more stuff to clarify. But because I am tired, and it is late, I will continue at another time

And finally, what you call traditional Biblical Christianity is quite different from the traditional Biblical Christianity of the 1st century.

CFR
You made the assumption, so the onus is on you to establish your point.. Please show us EXACTLY what you mean,and EXACTLY what are the significant differences. And PLEASE do this from non-LDS sources.

 

[By Grace]

Satan claims to be the Son, Moses 1:19 (Moses 5:13).

There are LOTS more stuff to clarify. But because I am tired, and it is late, I will continue at another time
CFR
You made the assumption, so the onus is on you to establish your point.. Please show us EXACTLY what you mean,and EXACTLY what are the significant differences. And PLEASE do this from non-LDS sources.

• Moses 5:13
  
  13 And Satan came among them, saying: I am also a son of God; and he commanded them, saying: Believe it not; and they believed it not, and they loved Satan more than God. And men began from that time forth to be carnal, sensual, and devilish.

• Moses 1:19
  
  19 And now, when Moses had said these words, Satan cried with a loud voice, and ranted upon the earth, and commanded, saying: I am the Only Begotten, worship me.
• Moses 1:22
  
  22 And it came to pass that Satan cried with a loud voice, with weeping, and wailing, and gnashing of teeth; and he departed hence, even from the presence of Moses, that he beheld him not.

• Moses 5:28
  
  28 And it came to pass that Cain took one of his brothers’ daughters to wife, and they loved Satan more than God.
• Moses 5:30
  
  30 And Satan sware unto Cain that he would do according to his commands. And all these things were done in secret.

• Moses 1:13
  
  13 And it came to pass that Moses looked upon Satan and said: Who art thou? For behold, I am a son of God, in the similitude of his Only Begotten; and where is thy glory, that I should worship thee?

Latter-day Saint scriptures refer to Jesus Christ as both the Father and the Son. Most notably in the Book of Mormon, Christ introduced himself to the brother of Jared saying, "I am the Father and the Son" (Ether 3:14); Nephi 1 referred to the Lamb of God as "the Eternal Father" (1 Ne. 11:21, 1830 ed.), and the prophet Abinadi said that the Messiah would be "the Father…and the Son" (Mosiah 15:3). Such usage has been explained in several ways consistent with the fundamental LDS understanding of the Godhead as three distinct beings.

There is no lack of clarity about Christ's sonship. Jesus is the Son of God in at least three ways. First, he is the firstborn spirit child of God the Father and thereby the elder brother of the spirits of all men and women as God the Father, known also by the exalted name-title Elohim, is the father of the spirits of all mankind (Num. 16:22; Heb. 12:9; John 20:17). Thus, when Christ is called the Firstborn (e.g., Rom. 8:29; Col. 1:15; D&C 93:21), Latter-day Saints accept this as a possible reference to Christ's spiritual birth. Second, he is the literal physical son of God, the Only Begotten in the Flesh (e.g., John 1:14;3:16; 2 Ne. 25:12; Jacob 4:11; D&C 29:42;93:11; Moses 1:6;2:26). Third, spiritually he is also a son by virtue of his submission unto the will of the Father (Heb. 5:8).

[FONT=&quot]Jesus Christ is also known by the title of Father. The meaning of scriptures using this nomenclature is not always immediately clear, primarily owing to the fact that Christ and his Father are virtually inseparable in purpose, testimony, glory, and power. In most cases, however, the scriptural usage can be explained in several ways[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] from http://eom.byu.edu/index.php/Jesus_Christ,_Fatherhood_and_Sonship_of[/FONT]
​

[FONT=&quot]
Me think man in white shirt not know Mormonism!
:biglol

Seriously your religion is problematic on many levels. But since I do not want to turn this site into ANOTHER apologetics site, I will let the above works speak for themselves.
[/FONT]

 

[By Grace]

Originally Posted by proveallthings
A lot of uninformed assumptions here I thought I would respond to.

1. Nowhere in LDS writings does it say that Lucifer or Satan is the brother of Jesus. This is a logical conclusion that can come from real LDS teachings, I agree. But it is just as easily concluded by Biblical teachings....

It has been 7 days since I posted these posts above. My reply is based on explaining to Christians some of the tactics of Mormons for the uninitiated.

Frequently they will make claims such as were made by the poster "proveallthings", but will not be able to back them up. That was my purpose in the CFR, meaning "Cite for Reference"
Almost as frequently they will partially state things in order to claim "We are Christians too". Many Christians fall for that ruse.

Without exception, they run when confronted with the evidences from their own materials that contradict their bald-faced assertions. They are very quick to tell you that you are wrong, but when confronted with the evidence their bearing false witness against their selves, they will scurry away when the light is focused on their works-based religion.

Since this site is NOT an apologetics site, I go no further, excepting to state that the Father of Lies (John 8:44) is the founder of Mormonism. On CARM, where I also post, I am constantly amazed at the putrid fruits of Mormonism. And since I know the works that the Mormons do, I can truly say that our country dodged a bullet when it re-elected Obama and not elected Romney.


That is my opinion, and I do not think that to discuss that issue of Mormonism would further the aims of this site. Should the admins make an exception, well that is their choice.

 

[Matthew G]

Very interesting discussion so far, I must say. Apologies for jumping in late, but I have a question. I worked with a young lady who was a mormon, and we got into a discussion one shift about what exactly her beliefs were. She told me a few things that I can't wrap my head around, so I thought I'd ask here. Let me add that, if she mispoke, misrepresented, or perhaps just misunderstood my questions, please set the record straight for me. I'm interested in real answers, not suppositions.

-She told me mormons believe that the Bible is true. All of it. But then she also told me Jesus was a created figure, that every person on earth goes to heaven, except for the very worst of the worst; and that Hell is not a real place, but the worst of the worst I mention are cast into an "eternal darkness". Scripture, however, teaches us that Jesus is God, the second part of the Holy Trinity, come to dwell on earth in human form for the remission of sin. Scripture (and Jesus himself) also warns of Hell, that it is a very real place that if you die without belief in Christ, that's where you will spend eternity.

My question (assuming, of course, her statements are accurate) is how can mormons believe the Bible is true, but also hold beliefs that directly contradict its teachings, as I stated above?

Apologies to By Grace, because I don't want this turning into an Apologetics site, either; but these questions have been burning in my mind for months. I'd rather have them answered here, by a real person, than by the internet. Because we all know if it's on the internet, it's true 2

 

[By Grace]

It is my opinion that discussing Mormonism as Christians will not run afoul of the moderators. Therefore, I will respond as best s I can

Very interesting discussion so far, I must say. Apologies for jumping in late, but I have a question. I worked with a young lady who was a mormon, and we got into a discussion one shift about what exactly her beliefs were. She told me a few things that I can't wrap my head around, so I thought I'd ask here. Let me add that, if she mispoke, misrepresented, or perhaps just misunderstood my questions, please set the record straight for me. I'm interested in real answers, not suppositions.

She did not misspeak but she was not entirely accurate.
HUH??
Mormons will mislead because their founder is the Father of Lies, and they are trained to be inaccurate in what they tell non-Mormons. For the Mormons there are 5 sources of "Scripture", and all four Mormon sources are "superior to the Bible" which is its 5th source. The other 4 include the Book of Mormon, Pearl of Great price, doctrines and Covenants and the Book of Abraham. That is because the 66 books of Scripture is correct only to the extent that Joseph Smith translated it.

-She told me mormons believe that the Bible is true. All of it. But then she also told me Jesus was a created figure, that every person on earth goes to heaven, except for the very worst of the worst; and that Hell is not a real place, but the worst of the worst I mention are cast into an "eternal darkness". Scripture, however, teaches us that Jesus is God, the second part of the Holy Trinity, come to dwell on earth in human form for the remission of sin. Scripture (and Jesus himself) also warns of Hell, that it is a very real place that if you die without belief in Christ, that's where you will spend eternity.

No Mormon will agree that the Apostle's Creed, or any Ecumenical Creed is accurate. Their jesus is not our Jesus. Their jesus is a man who was exalted to "godhood" because he OBEYED God. All cults redefine Jesus Christ, and the LDS church is no exception. Therefore it is not wrong for them to believe that jesus and Satan are brothers.

There is a (in)famous couplet that describes this, that the Mormons are taught:
"As man is, god once was is;
As god is, man may become:

My question (assuming, of course, her statements are accurate) is how can mormons believe the Bible is true, but also hold beliefs that directly contradict its teachings, as I stated above?

Philosophically as a Christian, you believe in the doctrine of non contradiction. That is both the concept of A being true, and =/=A (not equal to) can not be true. (For more on this idea, Ravi Zacharius has a good book called The Shattered Visage) That is not true for the LDS. And it is unfortunate that those who point out logical inconsistencies find it difficult to get through. That is because the god of this age has blinded them (2 Corinthians 4:3-4)

Apologies to By Grace, because I don't want this turning into an Apologetics site, either; but these questions have been burning in my mind for months. I'd rather have them answered here, by a real person, than by the internet. Because we all know if it's on the internet, it's true 2

So far, you are asking for information, and I have given you a sketchy outline, so I do not believe that either of us is turning this into another apologetics site. For anyone who wishes to deal with Mormons, the best advice I can give is FIRST KNOW YOUR BIBLE.

That is because Scripture alone is our foundation, and the Christian is never wrong when he/she sticks to Scripture. If you want to engage your Mormon friend, you can always say, "That is not what the Bible says about that... Let me show you." That way, your foundation is solid, and there is no way that you can be shaken if you stand on that. Let Holy Spirit do His work as you present the TRUTH, praying for Him to open closed eyes as you do that. You are merely the messenger of Good News. Deliver the message as best as you can, then get out of the way of Holy Spirit's way!

Hope that helps.

 

[mdougie]

There are many Mormons here in Houston. I most often find them to be very devout. They say they are Christian and proclaim Christ so that's good enough for me. Their works bear good fruit and that is how we are instructed to know what a Christian is, and not by some legalistic technicality. None of us control the religion, or denomination we are born into. It is how we think and behave that matters most. What is in our hearts that pleases God. No denomination has the absolute truth. Mormons are just as Christian as Catholics, Pentecostals, and Baptists. Certainly they get some things wrong and some things right.

 

[Mike]

We are free to use this forum for apologetics. We even have a section named by it.

In my experience with him, proveallthings will not shirk from any debate, but he's not able to log on every day. As long as it is conducted respectfully, you are free to drill down to any depth.

MatthewG, when you ask a Mormon about their beliefs, you must ask several layers of questions to get to the core of them. For instance, they will say that believe in the Triune nature of God, but their idea of Triune is hopefully very different than yours. Biblical Christianity says we have one God manifested in three distinct persons. Remember, in the beginning and ever more, we have one God.

They believe God was once a being like you and me, and he was exalted to be the god of our planet. Their hope is that they will be exalted likewise. THIS IS HUGE!!! If God was created, who created God?

I could go on and on, but Mormonism is a lie fabricated by a gold digger, Joseph Smith. It cloaks itself as Christianity when it suits their purpose, but make no mistake. They do not put Biblical Christians on the same level as themselves. Joseph Smith added many strange notions to the Bible, and if we don't believe his word, we do not adhere to God's full Word, in their view. Where there are differences, the Book of Mormon outweighs holy scripture for them. They will claim this isn't true. All I can say is ask, listen, and pray for discernment.

 

[By Grace]

There are many Mormons here in Houston. I most often find them to be very devout. They say they are Christian and proclaim Christ so that's good enough for me. Their works bear good fruit and that is how we are instructed to know what a Christian is, and not by some legalistic technicality. None of us control the religion, or denomination we are born into. It is how we think and behave that matters most. What is in our hearts that pleases God. No denomination has the absolute truth. Mormons are just as Christian as Catholics, Pentecostals, and Baptists. Certainly they get some things wrong and some things right.

Sorry to say this, but it is the truth: You are embracing the deliberate falsehoods they put out. I am not being harsh, but realistic.

I live in the home of America's Second Great Revival, aka "The Burned over District". Started by Charles Finney c. 1803, (and the church where he claims to begin his revivals in Dresden, NY on Seneca Lake is about 10 miles from my home) he began a revival that went from Albany to Buffalo along the Erie Canal the fires of revival were so great that all historians, liberal and conservative acknowledge that fact. Naturally where truth is triumphant, error soon follows as a counterfeit. Mormonism is no exception.

Several times, I have been at Hill Cumorah where the con man (among other things) claimed to dig up gold plates, and they tell a preposterous tale of a huge battle among native Americans who used chariots and killed 100,000 or 1,000,000 (depending on the source) people who were buried on a drumlin (a glacier formation) that has never been authenticated by any relic in New York State . Nor is the story mentioned in the NYS Regents standards for American History.

It may be that your confusion is due to the fact that the Reorganized Latter Day Saints changed their name in 2001 to "Community of Christ", and their effort to say "we are Christians too" has persuaded some who know little about either the LDS or the RLDS (each of which believe the other is apostate). The leopard may change his name, but he can not change his skin. The history of that skin is very anti-Christian, and is led by a so-called prophet who was a noted con man, a man with a criminal record for using a "seer stone" a bank embezzler, a serial adulterer, a pedophile since he married three girls under 15.

There is no prophet of the TRUE God in the OT with similar nefarious credentials.

ASk your Mormon friends about this (in)famous couplet that describes this, that the Mormons are taught:
"As man is, god once was is;
As god is, man may become:

Ask if it is a true representation of their belief. (It is but they usually deny it) And that denial is rooted in a web of deceit, because they are taught to be evasive when talking to non-LDS. Their name for that is "casting pearls before swine" and THAT is an accurate representation of their opinions of Christians.

When you said "Their works bear good fruit and that is how we are instructed to know what a Christian is, and not by some legalistic technicality. " you are trying to judge a book by its cover and are not seeing the rotten contents of the book inside. I t is NOT a "legal technicality" that makes makes Mormons not Christians it is that they have an entirely different god than do Christians, they have an entirely different jesus than do Christians, they have an entirely different holy spirit than do Christians, and their salvation is entirely different because in the BoM, one verse says "we are saved by grace AFTER doing we can"

I am running short on time, so I can not go into much more detail, but if you ask again, I will give more details to demonstrate that Mormonism is from the Father of all lies.

 

[mdougie]

Sorry to say this, but it is the truth: You are embracing the deliberate falsehoods they put out. I am not being harsh, but realistic.

I live in the home of America's Second Great Revival, aka "The Burned over District". Started by Charles Finney c. 1803, (and the church where he claims to begin his revivals in Dresden, NY on Seneca Lake is about 10 miles from my home) he began a revival that went from Albany to Buffalo along the Erie Canal the fires of revival were so great that all historians, liberal and conservative acknowledge that fact. Naturally where truth is triumphant, error soon follows as a counterfeit. Mormonism is no exception.

Several times, I have been at Hill Cumorah where the con man (among other things) claimed to dig up gold plates, and they tell a preposterous tale of a huge battle among native Americans who used chariots and killed 100,000 or 1,000,000 (depending on the source) people who were buried on a drumlin (a glacier formation) that has never been authenticated by any relic in New York State . Nor is the story mentioned in the NYS Regents standards for American History.

It may be that your confusion is due to the fact that the Reorganized Latter Day Saints changed their name in 2001 to "Community of Christ", and their effort to say "we are Christians too" has persuaded some who know little about either the LDS or the RLDS (each of which believe the other is apostate). The leopard may change his name, but he can not change his skin. The history of that skin is very anti-Christian, and is led by a so-called prophet who was a noted con man, a man with a criminal record for using a "seer stone" a bank embezzler, a serial adulterer, a pedophile since he married three girls under 15.

There is no prophet of the TRUE God in the OT with similar nefarious credentials.

ASk your Mormon friends about this (in)famous couplet that describes this, that the Mormons are taught:
"As man is, god once was is;
As god is, man may become:

Ask if it is a true representation of their belief. (It is but they usually deny it) And that denial is rooted in a web of deceit, because they are taught to be evasive when talking to non-LDS. Their name for that is "casting pearls before swine" and THAT is an accurate representation of their opinions of Christians.

When you said "Their works bear good fruit and that is how we are instructed to know what a Christian is, and not by some legalistic technicality. " you are trying to judge a book by its cover and are not seeing the rotten contents of the book inside. I t is NOT a "legal technicality" that makes makes Mormons not Christians it is that they have an entirely different god than do Christians, they have an entirely different jesus than do Christians, they have an entirely different holy spirit than do Christians, and their salvation is entirely different because in the BoM, one verse says "we are saved by grace AFTER doing we can"

I am running short on time, so I can not go into much more detail, but if you ask again, I will give more details to demonstrate that Mormonism is from the Father of all lies.

They are good people and Christian. I am not going to nit pick tiny passages for them or for Baptists or Catholics or Pentecostals. When one does so it only breeds animosity. No denomination can stand up to such over scrutiny. To think that God didn't provide a way for people in North America to be saved by Jesus until the whites came here is arrogant.

 

[By Grace]

Are you perhaps Mormon?

At this point, I believe that you may be LDS. So instead of you disagreeing with what I do post, i ask you to demonstrate why you believe that the LDS people are Christians.

The second reason I believe that you may be LDS is that EVERY Church calling itself Christian will accept the Ecumenical Creeds as being definitive of their beliefs. Because your reply did not mention the Creeds, and because Mormonism utterly rejects the Ecumenical Creeds as being "apostate" that is a significant difference that your reply post seemed to gloss over.

The third reason I believe that you may be Mormon is from this statement "To think that God didn't provide a way for people in North America to be saved by Jesus until the whites came here is arrogant." This also leads me to question if you are native American or other than Caucasian. The record of the LDS church regarding black people is an abomination. It was not until 1978 or so that black males were permitted to be a "priest" (as if that really mattered) and there are passages from J Smith that are really harsh on blacks.

If you are NOT a Mormon, then can you please explain why it is that you do not seem to hold the Creeds as definitive statements of truth for the Christian faith?

 

[mdougie]

Are you perhaps Mormon?

At this point, I believe that you may be LDS. So instead of you disagreeing with what I do post, i ask you to demonstrate why you believe that the LDS people are Christians.

The second reason I believe that you may be LDS is that EVERY Church calling itself Christian will accept the Ecumenical Creeds as being definitive of their beliefs. Because your reply did not mention the Creeds, and because Mormonism utterly rejects the Ecumenical Creeds as being "apostate" that is a significant difference that your reply post seemed to gloss over.

The third reason I believe that you may be Mormon is from this statement "To think that God didn't provide a way for people in North America to be saved by Jesus until the whites came here is arrogant." This also leads me to question if you are native American or other than Caucasian. The record of the LDS church regarding black people is an abomination. It was not until 1978 or so that black males were permitted to be a "priest" (as if that really mattered) and there are passages from J Smith that are really harsh on blacks.

If you are NOT a Mormon, then can you please explain why it is that you do not seem to hold the Creeds as definitive statements of truth for the Christian faith?

I'm not Mormon. I am just a regular Christian with no denomination. I think they are Christian because they say they are, and based on how they behave I see no reason to call them otherwise. If you want to get into legalistic technical debate with a Mormon I can't help you, but I don't think such things are useful or relevant. How we behave toward one another is how to determine if one is Christian. Christ gave only one command. If someone behaves according to that command, and claims Christianity. That's good enough for me.


Things like is the world 6,000 years old or did unicorns really exist or is magic underwear stupid have no place in actual discussion about what is or is not a Christian. IMHO

 

[By Grace]

Thank you for your opinion, friend.

Obviously we disagree, and I will not try to "convert you to my beliefs", OK? But your statements do raise some questions in my mind as to what would separate a Christian from a Mormon from a Hindu?

The reason why I added Hindu is that they are very tolerant towards every other religion, and they see no problem in eclectically assimilating elements from every other religion. Therefore a "Hindu Christian is not an oxymoron in their world view.

What (if any) lines of demarcation do you believe that there between those three religions?

 

[mdougie]

Thank you for your opinion, friend.

Obviously we disagree, and I will not try to "convert you to my beliefs", OK? But your statements do raise some questions in my mind as to what would separate a Christian from a Mormon from a Hindu?

The reason why I added Hindu is that they are very tolerant towards every other religion, and they see no problem in eclectically assimilating elements from every other religion. Therefore a "Hindu Christian is not an oxymoron in their world view.

What (if any) lines of demarcation do you believe that there between those three religions?

Christians have adopted many aspects of other religions to get them to convert. Christmas and Easter being the most obvious. Christmas is a whole lot of pagan ritual. The decorated tree and presents the time of year. Easter with eggs and what not. Many Catholic traditions are rooted in other faiths as well. It's quite common. So what separates a Hindu fro a Christian. If the Hindu says he is Christian and behaves as a Christian, but still hold to many Hindu traditions then nothing important or relevant separates them.

 

[farouk]

The watchword should always be: 'What saith the Scripture?' (Romans 4.3)

 

[By Grace]

Christians have adopted many aspects of other religions to get them to convert. Christmas and Easter being the most obvious. Christmas is a whole lot of pagan ritual. The decorated tree and presents the time of year. Easter with eggs and what not. Many Catholic traditions are rooted in other faiths as well. It's quite common. So what separates a Hindu fro a Christian. If the Hindu says he is Christian and behaves as a Christian, but still hold to many Hindu traditions then nothing important or relevant separates them.

Can you give me something concrete?

For example can I be a Christian if I believe that all religions go to heaven?

Is there something that is ABSOLUTELY TRUE in one religion, and ABSOLUTELY FALSE in another? What are some examples?

Is it your opinion that one's behavior trumps one's belief?

Really, I am not trying to be annoying, but I am attempting to get some answers from you which tell me how to best answer your posts vis a vis the thread topic.

 

[By Grace]

The watchword should always be: 'What saith the Scripture?' (Romans 4.3)

You must be one of those Bible-thumping fundamentalists to quote Scripture!

Me too!

 

[mdougie]

Can you give me something concrete?

For example can I be a Christian if I believe that all religions go to heaven?

Is there something that is ABSOLUTELY TRUE in one religion, and ABSOLUTELY FALSE in another? What are some examples?

Is it your opinion that one's behavior trumps one's belief?

Really, I am not trying to be annoying, but I am attempting to get some answers from you which tell me how to best answer your posts vis a vis the thread topic.

Yes one can be a Christian and believe all religions can go to heaven. Eastern, and Russian orthodox and universalists believe that all can go to heaven. Behavior doesn't trump belief. They are the same. One can't say one has belief in good and consistently do evil for example. Faith and belief are but a reflection of one another. As for what behavior is so bad that one can't ever go to heaven. I don't know of any sin that wasn't forgiven by Christ.

I don't find you annoying at all.

 

[Kaileymarie]

Yes one can be a Christian and believe all religions can go to heaven. Eastern, and Russian orthodox and universalists believe that all can go to heaven. Behavior doesn't trump belief. They are the same. One can't say one has belief in good and consistently do evil for example. Faith and belief are but a reflection of one another. As for what behavior is so bad that one can't ever go to heaven. I don't know of any sin that wasn't forgiven by Christ.

I don't find you annoying at all.

Jesus said....

Matthew 12:31-32

“Therefore I say to you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven men.

Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man, it will be forgiven him; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit, it will not be forgiven him, either in this age or in the age to come."

 

[Webb]

Hi Mdougie

The sin against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, in this age not that to come. So said Jesus.

 

[Kaileymarie]

http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20120731112515AAeitVl

This has a part of the Quran talking about Christians. How can these people go to heaven?