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mdougie
Guest
I have no idea what that could possibly even mean.
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mormonism
- Thread starter lazarus0673
- Start date
I have no idea what that could possibly even mean.
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mdougie
Guest
Not all Muslims take their book literally.
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Kaileymarie
Member
I'm pretty sure he's speaking about the verse I posted. To my understanding it means that the only sin that will not be forgiven is the denial of the power of god through Christ.
Kaileymarie
Member
Can a Muslim also be a Christian?
If only those who accept the power of god through Christ can be forgiven, I just don't see how someone who doesn't believe Jesus is god can be forgiven.
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mdougie
Guest
I don't think that can be the unforgivable sin. That is everyone who isn't Christian.
Yes, I was referring to the blasphemy of the Holy Spirit. Mark 3:30 tells us exactly what it is. This is the sin that shall not be forgiven. Certainly, one who doesn't believe in Jesus Christ cannot be saved, John 8:24, Mark 16:15,16 etc.
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mdougie
Guest
Well unless one believe God through Jesus forgave everyone regardless of what they know or believe.
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mdougie
Guest
What is blasphemy of the Holy Spirit?
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mdougie
Guest
I read them, and they don't seem to say anything about sin that isn't forgiven. Mark 3 is about being unclean. Could you summarize in laymen's terms? Could you give an example? How is it worse than raping and murdering someone for example?
totopicThank you for the honest answers. I can be persistent, and I can push that persistence to the point of annoyance. Don't wanna go to the latter position.
From my position you seem to have a relativistic concept of what truth is. By that I mean that you seem to believe that truth is in the hands of the beholder, and not externally verifiable, nor is it absolute. As a result it is possible for some people to declare that you have a truth, and I have a truth, but they are not the same, but that is OK.
By definition, truth refers to that which is true, and by definition, truth is immutable, not changing. Therefore using real numbers 2+2=4 every time and at all times. There can never be a time that 2+2=/= 4 (meaning "is not the same as") Using logic symbols, we can say that if A is truth then ANYTHING that is not A is not the truth because it is contrary to A.
In theology we have similar statements. Look at what Jesus said in John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
Jesus says that He is THE way, (a definite article), which means that He is saying that ANYTHING any other person or religion states which is contrary to what He says is NOT the truth. Therefore, there is no other name given among men other than that of Jesus Christ which can lead us to heaven. And that is exactly what Jesus means when He says I am the way.
The next part of the statement is remarkable because using grammatical analysis, Jesus is saying that He is truth incarnate. That means that He can never lie, nor can he be sarcastic, nor kid by stating something false. Jesus cannot, nor will not tell a lie because it is against His own self declared nature.
The last part of that verse is a reiteration of the first part of the first phrase, "I am the way". In a way, it is almost like an Oreo cookie because the two wafers are identical and they are cemented with the "icing" that Jesus Christ is truth incarnate.
So there iis a fork in your theological road at your feet, friend. As a result, you will need to accept the words of Jesus as authoritative because it it is ontologically impossible for Him to lie, or else you take the not the same as (=/=) position, and in saying what He said in John 14:6 Jesus Christ is either a liar or a lunatic. If it is the case that he is either, then there is nothing that He stated, which can be taken at face value, and He should be relegated to the trash heap of history.
But there is a third choice option. If you reject the idea that Jesus was a liar or a lunatic, then the only other rational choice is that He is Lord of Lords, and King of Kings. When He speaks, he does not stutter so that what he says He means, and that He means what He says.
So let's get back to the issue of Mormonism and Hinduism and examine what truth is.
Earlier in this post, I discussed that truth by iits ontological nature does not contradict itself, nor is contrary to itself. That is the essence of the "if truth be defined as A "statement. In practical means that means that if there is a hypothetical verse that says "you can get to heaven by eating only Brussels sprouts", and that is defined as truth, it is a simple exercise of non-contradiction that states if you eat a steak, or rutabagas or turnips etc, you can not get into heaven. Only those who eat Brussels sprouts exclusively can get into heaven because the Bible says that, and we have that "verse where Jesus says it", also.
So let's kick that up to the theological notch, and more realistic, now that you can see my point.
Jesus says (using Paul) in Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
Mormonism says 2 Nephi 25:23 For we labor diligently to write, to persuade our children, and also our brethren, to believe in Christ, and to be reconciled to God; for we know that it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do. (emphasis added)
Hinduism says by being good, and worshiping the god Vishnu you may be reincarnated into a higher life form in the next life.
Obviously EACH of these are different. Obviously they are mutually incompatible as ways of salvation, and logically, it is impossible for EACH of them to be true. That is because they were all were true, they would all agree (truth= A). So again you have to make a choice here If there is truth in one of them, then there is untruth in the other two by definition. The other options for the choice is :
1) None of the three statements is true, thus each of the religions are worthless
2) ALL of them are true, but then you need to explain how the inherent inconsistencies of each can be compatible.
Therefore, in light of the things I wrote above, I ask you to reconsider your universal salvation belief and find one that is internally consistent.
Thank you for reading this treatise. I tried to make as brief as possible
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mdougie
Guest
I think you assume much and present false dichotomy. I don't think you do this maliciously, but simply mistakenly.
Let's take your truth statement 2+2=4. That is true, but so is 2*2=4, but so is -2*-2=4. Even in your own analogy of the certainty of mathematical truth there are multiple paths and description of the exact same phenomena. All those statements while different are the same and equal.
Jesus sad he is the truth. One could look at it simplistically and only see 2+2 or one could see it another way. That Jesus brought us the truth through command and directive. The word. What is said is the truth. He didn't command worship. He commanded that we love one another as we love ourselves. One way makes Jesus have ego, one way does not. How we were commanded to behave is the truth. Love is the truth.
When you bring up "loving one another" and "worshiping Jesus" you bring extraneous things to the table, and derail the thread, which is about Mormonism, and the falseness of that religion.
Because I assume that you are not doing that maliciously, I will let it go, but the mods take it seriously, or else Air Dancer would not have made her post in red.
The point of that explanation was to detail the logical inconsistencies between Biblical Christianity and every other religion. Evidently I showed you so many trees that you did not see the trees in the forest. So I ask you to please swing the discussion to Mormonism vs Christianity, or is it that you see no differences between them?
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mdougie
Guest
I brought up the only command of Jesus. As you pointed out there is truth. 2+2=4. I pointed out that there are multiple paths to even the most unmoving of such truths. 2*2 and -2*-2 all equal 4. They are but different ways to communicate and express the single truth. Mormons don't believe exactly the same thing sentence for sentence, but they believe the only things that matter. That Jesus is real and died for their sins. They understand and at least the ones I have met try to live by the command of Jesus to do unto others as we would have others do unto us.
We can find reasons for division and strife, but why? That isn't' the command of Jesus. No one can help the denomination they were born into and indoctrinated with. They believe in Jesus and call themselves Christian. They get the only things that truly matter right. So IMHO they are Christian. I don't plan on reading the book of Mormon to find reasons to disparage them and tell them they are heretics or abominations.
The Bible says Jesus was born from a virgin
Mormonism believes that God had sex with Mary. By definition, that means she was NOT a virgin. By definition, that makes her a fornicator. By definition, that id a blasphemy against God because He fornicates with His creation.
The Bible is clear that Jesus always existed in the form of God and in the form of man simultaneously. There was no mixture or confusion in the fact that He is 100% human and 100% God.
Mormons believe that both god and jesus were once humans who were exalted into "godship"
Those things DO MATTER, and they are not insignificant differences. Nor can both of them be correct.
Where is there any example of Jesus ever singing "kum by ya" at the sex worship temples with the male and female prostitutes? That is what you are advocating.
And should anyone try to persuade me that they have a nice kitty with a long white stripe on its black coat, that name they call the animal will not change the nature of that animal being a skunk.
But it is apparent that you will not take me at my word. Here is some stuff you may want to read from http://www.4truth.net/fourtruthpbnew.aspx?pageid=8589952801
Jesus Christ was the virgin born God incarnate who existed in all time with the Father and Holy Spirit in the eternal Trinity. As a man He possessed two natures -human and divine. He lived a sinless life and willingly died on the cross as a sacrifice for the sin of all humanity. (see John 1:1-18; 8:56-59; Phil. 2:6-11; Col. 1:13-22; Heb.1:3; 13:8)
Jesus was the spiritual "first born" Son of God in the preexistence. "Every person who was ever born on earth was our spirit brother or sister in heaven. The first spirit born to our heavenly parents was Jesus Christ, so he is literally our elder brother" (Gospel Principles [GP], p. 11)."And now, verily I say unto you, I was in the beginning with the Father, and am the Firstborn" (D&C 93:21). He is also the "only begotten" physical offspring of God by procreation on earth. "Jesus is the only person on earth to be born of a mortal mother and an immortal father. That is why he is called the Only Begotten Son" (GP, p. 64). His atonement (death and resurrection) provides immortality for all people regardless of their faith. "Christ thus overcame physical death. Because of his atonement, everyone born on this earth will be resurrected . . . This condition is called immortality. All people who ever lived will be resurrected, 'both old and young, both bond and free, both male and female, both the wicked and the righteous' (The Book of Mormon [BOM], Alma 11:44)" (GP, p. 74). (See GP, pp. 11, 17-19, 61-77.)
If you can not see that these differences are indeed significant (and there are other sites such as CARM or Contender Ministries which ALL have the material backed up) then I suggest that you may be using the avatar "Christian" incorrectly. I say that because you possibly are indeed a LDS person who is posing as a Christian. So what is it?Jesus was the spiritual "first born" Son of God in the preexistence. "Every person who was ever born on earth was our spirit brother or sister in heaven. The first spirit born to our heavenly parents was Jesus Christ, so he is literally our elder brother" (Gospel Principles [GP], p. 11)."And now, verily I say unto you, I was in the beginning with the Father, and am the Firstborn" (D&C 93:21). He is also the "only begotten" physical offspring of God by procreation on earth. "Jesus is the only person on earth to be born of a mortal mother and an immortal father. That is why he is called the Only Begotten Son" (GP, p. 64). His atonement (death and resurrection) provides immortality for all people regardless of their faith. "Christ thus overcame physical death. Because of his atonement, everyone born on this earth will be resurrected . . . This condition is called immortality. All people who ever lived will be resurrected, 'both old and young, both bond and free, both male and female, both the wicked and the righteous' (The Book of Mormon [BOM], Alma 11:44)" (GP, p. 74). (See GP, pp. 11, 17-19, 61-77.)
In addition, I post these to demonstrate that those believing that Mormonism is another branch of Christianity are forgetting the past statements of the LDS apostles and presidents:
Journal of Discourses 5:73--"When the light came to me I saw that all the so-called Christian world was groveling in darkness."
Journal of Discourses 8:99--"With a regard to true theology, a more ignorant people never lived than the present so-called Christian world."
Journal of Discourses 6:25--"What! Are Christians ignorant? Yes, as ignorant of the things of God as the brute beast."
Orson Pratt (Mormon Apostle)--"..all other churches are entirely destitute of all authority from God; and any person who receives baptism of the Lord's supper from their hands highly offend God, for he looks upon them as the most corrupt of all people" (The Seer, pg 255)
Heber C. Kimball (First Counselor to Brigham Young)--"Christians - those poor, miserable priests Brother Brigham was speaking about - some of them are the biggest whoremasters there are on the earth..." (Journal of Discourses 5:39)
from http://www.contenderministries.org/mormonism.php
The standard reply by LDS people to this is to attack the source of the information, and not contents of the quotes.
Lets see what happens...
The fact is, proving Mormonism to be a false doctrine is not an attack but a defense of the Christian faith. Joseph Smith, the founder of Mormonism made the first attack by claiming that all Christian denominations are an abomination in God's sight. If a Latter Day Saint should ask you this question, you need only look as far as their own scriptures and to the words of their leaders for an answer:
Journal of Discourses 5:73--"When the light came to me I saw that all the so-called Christian world was groveling in darkness."
Journal of Discourses 8:99--"With a regard to true theology, a more ignorant people never lived than the present so-called Christian world."
Journal of Discourses 6:25--"What! Are Christians ignorant? Yes, as ignorant of the things of God as the brute beast."
Orson Pratt (Mormon Apostle)--"..all other churches are entirely destitute of all authority from God; and any person who receives baptism of the Lord's supper from their hands highly offend God, for he looks upon them as the most corrupt of all people" (The Seer, pg 255)
Heber C. Kimball (First Counselor to Brigham Young)--"Christians - those poor, miserable priests Brother Brigham was speaking about - some of them are the biggest whoremasters there are on the earth..." (Journal of Discourses 5:39)
from http://www.contenderministries.org/mormonism.php
Lets see what happens...
proveallthings
Member
Very interesting discussion so far, I must say. Apologies for jumping in late, but I have a question. I worked with a young lady who was a mormon, and we got into a discussion one shift about what exactly her beliefs were. She told me a few things that I can't wrap my head around, so I thought I'd ask here. Let me add that, if she mispoke, misrepresented, or perhaps just misunderstood my questions, please set the record straight for me. I'm interested in real answers, not suppositions.
-She told me mormons believe that the Bible is true. All of it. But then she also told me Jesus was a created figure, that every person on earth goes to heaven, except for the very worst of the worst; and that Hell is not a real place, but the worst of the worst I mention are cast into an "eternal darkness". Scripture, however, teaches us that Jesus is God, the second part of the Holy Trinity, come to dwell on earth in human form for the remission of sin. Scripture (and Jesus himself) also warns of Hell, that it is a very real place that if you die without belief in Christ, that's where you will spend eternity.
My question (assuming, of course, her statements are accurate) is how can mormons believe the Bible is true, but also hold beliefs that directly contradict its teachings, as I stated above?
Apologies to By Grace, because I don't want this turning into an Apologetics site, either; but these questions have been burning in my mind for months. I'd rather have them answered here, by a real person, than by the internet. Because we all know if it's on the internet, it's true2
Matthew,
Sorry for not tuning in on this very regularly, but I will attempt to answer your questions from a Mormon point of view. The first problem I can see is one of terminology. Mormons teach exactly what Paul taught, that there are three degrees of Heaven (2Cor. 12:2, 1Cor. 15:40-42). Mormons believe that in order to dwell with the Father and the Son after the final judgement, one must accept and follow the only WAY, which is that of Jesus Christ. For those who end up in the lower degrees of glory they will be in such a state of being that will torment them for eternity because they will be painfully aware that their choices on this earth prevented from receiving the fullness of the third degree of heaven or the celestial. This state of torment is one of the definitions of Hell in the scriptures. Any person in that state would be in the actual place of Hell where ever they are physically. So in that sense Hell would be a place. I guess then, you could say that the first two degrees of heaven, while being degrees of glory are also the place of Hell. The other part of Hell is another actual place, which is outer darkness, which is where some people will end up. So, you could accurately call anywhere other than the third or celestial degree of glory or heaven to be Hell.
It is true that the Mormons believe that they believe in the Bible more completely and literally than any other Christian church. Can you show me anywhere in the Bible that uses the word "uncreated" to describe Christ or "not created"? Mormons believe the Jesus is God and was God from before the foundation of this world, which is the only time frame the Bible refers to. The Mormons may interpret the Bible differently than other Christians in certain instances, but that does not mean their belief contradicts the Bible.
I hope that helps.
As a former Mormon [who I believe God brought me out of that Religion 17 years ago], I think there is always the problem in that Church of justifying much that Joseph Smith proclaimed when the Church was first established. "Many plain and precious truths" which were supposedly lost he supposedly was led by God to clear up in his new established Religion. The Bible was mistranslated and mistransmitted supposedly by many corrupt people over the ages and the BoM was finally translated by Joseph Smith to be Scripture that was without human error. Of course many glaring changes have come out from the 1830 version of the BoM to the present version.
Over the last 180 years or so, The LDS Church has evolved to where many of Joseph Smith's proclamations are no longer as valid as they were in the 1830's. The KJ version of the Bible in the Mormon Church is now somewhat trusted, despite what Smith said about it all. Either Joseph Smith was a True Prophet of God and thus his statements on the errency of the Bible are true and continue to True OR, he was a fraud and the Church he established really wasn't built on the solid foundation as is proclaimed.
Of course, that is not at all what Paul meant by speaking of the third heaven and completely ignores all that Scripture states of the final destination of true believers.
There are Mormon beliefs which do contradict the Bible and even core Christian doctrines. They use the same language as Christians but change the meanings to suit their own errant beliefs.