The Fallacy of Freewill

[Stan53]

He he ... poor Pard! I put forth the argument and he's the one being squirted!

My answer to you is the same as what I'd tell John O, so I hope he's reading as well.


Paul did indeed know this was a godly intervention but he didn't know who it was (he had to ask ). I do believe Paul knew of the prophecies about Jesus but up to this point he either didn't believe them and/or didn't acknowledge them. Thus, his studies weren't really that useful, wouldn't you agree?

In a "God's ways are higher than man's " line of thinking, we can see how it was useful to God. Paul had the earthly knowledge to debate the most learned Pharisees, and Jesus (through Paul's own testimony ) could say that even the most vile offenders could change. Perhaps God wanted examples of ignorant men as well as the educated. So yes, perhaps in that sense Paul's journey did prepare him.

However, it didn't help him actually coming to Jesus. Both you and John O both recognized this was an intervention. With that we are now starting to see eye to eye. What I'm saying is that this intervention didn't leave him with a free will choice. If so, what were they?

After that (from acts 9:6 onward ) if you want to say Paul acted on free will, I have very little to debate with. I still think it was the will of God, but I can't say Paul didn't embrace it, and do it gladly.

So, are you and/or John O still claiming Paul had free will DURING the intervention?

My main concern is you referring to yourself in the third person! Yikes.

Actually the Greek word used here for 'Lord' is kyrios, and is the title that is given to: God, the Messiah, by Paul in the NT. The flash of light may have temporarily made Paul retinally blind, but it blasted away all the spiritual blindness that the enemy had put in Paul's way. There is no argument or protestation here by Paul. He got up and did as he was instructed. He KNEW at the moment Jesus spoke, just as the Apostles knew at the moment Jesus personally called them, and followed him. A consistant behaviour with Jesus' called Apostles.

God does NOT suspend our freewill EVER. It is counter productive and counter intuitive. God made us with freewill so why would he ever supercede it?

 

[John O]

Why would God put such a man who would willingly do whatever God asked him to through all of that? Perhaps I'm the spiritually most ignorant person on the planet, but it really doesn't make sense to me.

God didn't need to devinely intervene but he did?

I'm not even going to bother with asking why God saw it fit to make such a willing servant like Jonah spend three days and three nights in a whale's belly

To whom much is given much is required. Paul had a tendency toward pride and God in His mercy placed things around His life that helped keep him humble showing him always that He could do all things through Christ but nothing of eternal value through Paul. God is a loving Father to those who love Him and a fierce judge to those who oppose Him.

John O

 

[Slider]

Sorry fellas. I'm getting off your merry go round. You have made absolutely no sense trying to prove there was no devine intervention and a blinded beat down man had free will.

 

[John O]

Sorry fellas. I'm getting off your merry go round. You have made absolutely no sense trying to prove there was no devine intervention and a blinded beat down man had free will.

Slider there was divine intervention what else could you call a blinding light. I and others do not and have never disputed that God initiated the intervention what we have been trying to say is that once He has done that a response (declaration of acknowledgement of what He has done) must follow.

It is also most important that we don't stay at the salvation experience/event but grow and mature as sons of God so that we might be like Jesus.

John O

 

[reba]

Rom 9:15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
Rom 9:16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
Rom 9:17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
Rom 9:18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
Rom 9:19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
Rom 9:20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
Rom 9:21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
Rom 9:22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

 

[Stan53]

Sorry fellas. I'm getting off your merry go round. You have made absolutely no sense trying to prove there was no devine intervention and a blinded beat down man had free will.

I really don't understand where you see in Acts 9 that Paul was BEAT DOWN, as you put it. There is no indication of this assertion. Paul's recounts in Acts 22 & 26 do not indicate a BEAT DOWN either. As a matter of fact, Acts 22:17 indicates Paul carried on as normal, “When I returned to Jerusalem and was praying at the temple", Sounds very much to me, like a man excercising his freewill and obeying Jesus. In Acts 26:19, Paul states; ...I was not disobedient to the vision from heaven. This does NOT sound like a man who was BEAT DOWN. Sounds like a man who had a Godly encounter and was prayerfully meditating on it.
All in all, Paul was in control of his will and emotions, from what we can see in scripture.

If this doesn't make sense to you, I suggest you get that fixed.

 

[Slider]

Slider there was divine intervention what else could you call a blinding light. I and others do not and have never disputed that God initiated the intervention what we have been trying to say is that once He has done that a response (declaration of acknowledgement of what He has done) must follow.

It is also most important that we don't stay at the salvation experience/event but grow and mature as sons of God so that we might be like Jesus.

John O

John, if you would please go back and read post #68. I've already addressed that assertation, and you could've saved yourself and me time by saying what you did then.

You are right in that we shouldn't stay there on the road to Damascus, and we should move on. However, if you want to say God gives us free will, that incident says otherwise.

 

[Slider]

I really don't understand where you see in Acts 9 that Paul was BEAT DOWN, as you put it. There is no indication of this assertion. Paul's recounts in Acts 22 & 26 do not indicate a BEAT DOWN either. As a matter of fact, Acts 22:17 indicates Paul carried on as normal, “When I returned to Jerusalem and was praying at the temple", Sounds very much to me, like a man excercising his freewill and obeying Jesus. In Acts 26:19, Paul states; ...I was not disobedient to the vision from heaven. This does NOT sound like a man who was BEAT DOWN. Sounds like a man who had a Godly encounter and was prayerfully meditating on it.
All in all, Paul was in control of his will and emotions, from what we can see in scripture.

If this doesn't make sense to you, I suggest you get that fixed.

Stan

In almost all of my posts where I list the various things that happened to Paul I didn't use "colorful phrases " (for lack of a better term). I noted he was blinded, knocked to the ground (someone correctly pointed out the Bible says he fell -- not necessarily knocked to...-- was terrified, and was being scolded by Jesus and given only one option by Jesus.

That indeed is accurate. Of course it wasn't a literal beat down.I simply was being lazy and not relisting all the events and shortened it to "beat down ". Figured everyone already understood what I was saying. So sorry I gave you the wrong impression.

 

[savedbygrace57]

I am absolutely convinced, that if a man or woman believes in the freewill of man, they do not believe in the Sovereignty of God ! Its impossible ! I do not care how they attempt to spin that they do !

 

[Elijah674]

Ernest. T. Bass. How long am I going to have to deal with this utter nonsense? If God forknew he didn't have to force Paul,then why did he? If God did not have to blind him, terrorize him, cause him to fall to the ground then why did it happen?


Why would God put such a man who would willingly do whatever God asked him to through all of that? Perhaps I'm the spiritually most ignorant person on the planet, but it really doesn't make sense to me.

God didn't need to devinely intervene but he did?

I'm not even going to bother with asking why God saw it fit to make such a willing servant like Jonah spend three days and three nights in a whale's belly

___________

Be a little bit more clear to the material, not just condemning to the post person!
Are you teaching also that these ones of James are to be saved?? These ones who have been known and even apply boastings to still be open sinners, and are so in teachings for well past any 120 years of the Holy Spirits Strivings? Gen. 6:3

And with all kind of satanic false dogma, such as the eternal immortal hell burning + worms, along with being saved in sin & not from sin as seen below! (they promise 'liberty'.. 'who live in error' of 2 Peter 2:18-22) Is that you to????????

James 2
[10] For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.
+

James 2

[26] For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

And these ones are your brothers??? Rev. 18:4 finds you all PARTAKERS in the same Matt. 6:24 wrong side of only two groups then! And the LOVE (if that is from love?) that you post of IS FOR WHOM! And Rev. 3:9 matters not what one 'claims' without OBEDIENT [[[LOVING BORN AGAIN WORKS]]].

--Elijah

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

Ernest. T. Bass. How long am I going to have to deal with this utter nonsense? If God forknew he didn't have to force Paul,then why did he? If God did not have to blind him, terrorize him, cause him to fall to the ground then why did it happen?


Why would God put such a man who would willingly do whatever God asked him to through all of that? Perhaps I'm the spiritually most ignorant person on the planet, but it really doesn't make sense to me.

God didn't need to devinely intervene but he did?

I'm not even going to bother with asking why God saw it fit to make such a willing servant like Jonah spend three days and three nights in a whale's belly

You have not shown from the context where God had to force Saul to obey against his will, for the context shows that Saul was willing to obey the heavenly vision and not disobey. Did Saul of his own will go to Damascus, be born again, go and take the gospel to the Gentiles? Yes on all counts.


You have not shown where Jonah's free will was violated by God.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

I am absolutely convinced, that if a man or woman believes in the freewill of man, they do not believe in the Sovereignty of God ! Its impossible ! I do not care how they attempt to spin that they do !

If man does not have free will but his actions are forced by God, then you are making a sinner out of God.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

Rom 9:15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
Rom 9:16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
Rom 9:17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
Rom 9:18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
Rom 9:19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
Rom 9:20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
Rom 9:21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
Rom 9:22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

There is free will underlying these verses in Romans.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

Stan

In almost all of my posts where I list the various things that happened to Paul I didn't use "colorful phrases " (for lack of a better term). I noted he was blinded, knocked to the ground (someone correctly pointed out the Bible says he fell -- not necessarily knocked to...-- was terrified, and was being scolded by Jesus and given only one option by Jesus.

That indeed is accurate. Of course it wasn't a literal beat down.I simply was being lazy and not relisting all the events and shortened it to "beat down ". Figured everyone already understood what I was saying. So sorry I gave you the wrong impression.

Where does the context say Saul was forced to follow the option Jesus gave him, that he was not able to disobey the heavenly vision?

 

[Pard]

___________

Be a little bit more clear to the material, not just condemning to the post person!
Are you teaching also that these ones of James are to be saved?? These ones who have been known and even apply boastings to still be open sinners, and are so in teachings for well past any 120 years of the Holy Spirits Strivings? Gen. 6:3

And with all kind of satanic false dogma, such as the eternal immortal hell burning + worms, along with being saved in sin & not from sin as seen below! (they promise 'liberty'.. 'who live in error' of 2 Peter 2:18-22) Is that you to????????

James 2
[10] For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.
+

James 2

[26] For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

And these ones are your brothers??? Rev. 18:4 finds you all PARTAKERS in the same Matt. 6:24 wrong side of only two groups then! And the LOVE (if that is from love?) that you post of IS FOR WHOM! And Rev. 3:9 matters not what one 'claims' without OBEDIENT [[[LOVING BORN AGAIN WORKS]]].

--Elijah

You presume too much, and too often. In love, brother, you need to work on your presumptive nature. It's all you do. You presume and you condemn people you do not even know, because they do not agree with your every letter. News flash, your doctrine could be very much in error, and in fact I do believe it to be at least partially in error. You lack love, you need to show love. Christ didn't die for you so that you could walk around and tell everyone else how they are false teachers, liars, God-slanderers, and hypocrites.

Your post is a series of presumptions, ill fitting, and ignorant presumptions that I would expect from someone who has been brainwashed in an Arminian church, but not from someone who always appears, at least, to be well educated in Biblical doctrine, such as yourself. Your post is not even worthy a response because it is written in ignorance, and it consists of points that no one has yet bring up because they are not so ignorant to bring such silly remarks.

Let me recommend that you do what I did. I knew I needed to grow in love and so I quit this board until I matured enough to return and show love, even for the people I disagree with. Maybe you ought to do that too, because all you ever do is use the Bible as a weapon against your brothers in Christ.

And you are going to come on here and throw Bible verses at me like they are hot grenades, but I have tried to deal with you in private and you decided to ignore me. I tried to bring in another brother but still you ignored me. So here it is, can't ignore this now...

 

[Pard]

If man does not have free will but his actions are forced by God, then you are making a sinner out of God.

Please, enlighten us...

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

Please, enlighten us...

Acts 2:23 "Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain: "



If man has no free will but can only do what God has forced him to do, then why is Peter putting the blame of murder on the Jews when they were only able to do what God forced them to do? The Jews did not murder Christ out of some free will choice of their own since they supposedly have no free will, so they have no responsibility or culpability in the murder of Christ.

God then is the one, Who with wicked hands murder Christ and the Jews were just the tool God used to commit this sin. If you get a gun and shoot someone and murder that person, the gun was just a tool, an object with no free will choice, that you used to commit the sin of murder. Those Jews, like the gun, had no choice, no responsibility in the murder, they were just an object God used to commit murder.


The fact of the matter is that Peter was just in putting the blame upon the Jews for it was the Jews of their own free will murdered Christ. Again, God has foreknowledge and God foreknew that if those Jews were given the opportunity to murder Christ, they would of their own free will murder Him. God simply used their free will choice to further His own will. The Jews did not realize they were accomplishing God's will when they chose to murder the Messiah. Just like God foreknew Judas would betray Christ if given the opportunity, so God used Judas' free will choice to further His own will in Christ dying for the sins of mankind.

 

[savedbygrace57]

If man does not have free will but his actions are forced by God, then you are making a sinner out of God.

Thats only in your thinking. If you believe that man has a freewill you do not believe in the True God of scripture !

 

[former atheist]

1. Please list the choices Paul had acccording to the Bible.

The choices Paul had must be inferred as the Bible is not specific about it and Paul is not specific about what was going through his mind. Furthermore, I think you are inferring that Paul didn’t have a choice because the Bible doesn’t say that God made Paul do anything. God commanded Paul to do something, but he didn’t decide for him and therefore make him. Either way, it is not clearly put that God chose for Paul overriding Paul’s own freedom of choice.

2. Is being blinded, terrified, scolded and being forced to the ground by Jesus not a devine intervention?

I would think that being in the presence of God alone would do all of that as a consequence of seeing the Glory of God.

 

[Elijah674]

Thats only in your thinking. If you believe that man has a freewill you do not believe in the True God of scripture !

Just a yes or no answer for my question seen in post 90, ok? Are you saying that you are saved now, and were OSAS even before all of these many of postings;) And 'WORKS?'