[_ Old Earth _] Christ is Truth, and Urim and Thummim is the ocular device that reveals it

[Adam]

It is right.


You keep saying that a cube is hinted at. But it isn't.

But let's say it is just to illustrate a point.


How do you get from a cube shape to five stones in tetrahedron and octant shapes?


You don't. You simply can't get there. There is no reason to jump to that conclusion. There is no hint, no allegory. There is nothing that allows you to say that the Urim and Thummim are specifically five stones or in any particular set of shapes.


You have no ability to evidence this, whatsoever.

 

[Adam]

yeah,..
Let's try something....

OK.
I'LL USE CAPITALS TO SEPARATE MY COMMENTS FROM YOURS BELOW.

And I'll use red lettering to follow up on your responses.

I've looked back on this thread to find some of your "best evidence" for your claim.

Pop quiz time.


The Urim and Thummim are 5 stones in the shape of a tetrahedron and 4 octants that, when placed together, form a cube because:


a. an ephod is "foursquare"

NO... THE BREASTPLATE IS FOUR SQUARE.

A non-point. The breastplate being foursquare does not support the idea that the Urim and Thummim is a cube.

b. sukkah are cube shaped,

NO, THE SUKKAH ARE IDEALLY 7x7, HAVE A LATTICE ROOF THAT CAN BE SEEN THRU, CAN NOT BE HIGHER THAT THE CIELING OF THE MOST HOLY CUBE SHAPED ROOM IN THE TABERNACLE, 2O C.
HENCE, IS RELATED TO THAT GEOMETRY.

Another non-point. Nothing links this shape the the Urim and Thummim.

c. lulav etrog sets come with 5 peices

THE LULAVG/ETROG ARE SYMBOLIC OF THIS URIM AND THUMMIM AND THERE IS NOT OTHER RATIONAL REASON FOR IT.

There is no rational reason to assume that there is any symbolism related to the Urim and Thummim here.

d. Buckminster Fuller has shown how a cube can be divided into 5 shapes.

NO.
BUCKMINISTER FULLER, INDEPENDENTLY, DESCRIBED EXACTLY THE SAME GEOMETRIC CUBE. HE WROTE "Cosmography, the one thing that explains everything,"
THAT WOULD BE PRETTY CLOSE TO WHAT THE URIM AND THUMMIM IS ALL ABOUT.

There is no reason to assume this. And you can stop saying that the title of the book includes the words "the one thing that explains everything. We have already establish that to be false.


e.modern phylacteries are cube shaped


NO.
THE ANCIENT TEFILLIN WERE ALWAY CUBE SHAPED.
THE TRADITIONAL TEFILLIN HAVE ALWAYS BEEN CUBE SHAPE BOXES.

You have not been able to establish this to be the case.


f. Judah ben Bathyra once said "my grandfather gave me this tefillin."

YEP.
Judah b. Bathyra refers, about 150 C.E.

THIS WAS AT A TIME WHEN THE JEWS WERE RECONSTRUCTING THE TEFILLIN, WHICH THEY HAD CEASED TO WEAR DURING THE BABYLONIAN DIASPORA.


Another non-point, considering that there is not a description of the shape given. Also, this has no bearing on the possible shapes of the Urim and Thummim.

g. the "Sword of God" is a hypercube.

NO.
A HYPERCUBE IS A CUBE INSIDE A CUBE WHICH WOULD ALSO HAVE 16 EDGES.
THE URIM/THUMMIM OF THIS THEORY HAS 12 EDGES AS DOES EVERY ORDINARY CUBE, BUT FOUR MORE EDGES INSIDE ON THE TETRAHEDRON.

Not exactly. That is one of the ways in which we conceptualize the tesseract, since we have no ability to actually model a fourth dimension. The same way we might draw a series of parallelagrams to depict a cube in 2d to trick our brain into seing a third dimension:

This "cube" is modeled using 3 parallelograms, none of which have right angles. Atrue cube is not actually constructed of 3 parallelograms. This is an illusion of perspective. A true hypercube is not a cube inside a cube. We use these to conceptualize a fourth dimension but the real thing would not be constructed as such.

Neither can you construct a hypercube out of a tetrahedron and 4 octants. The "edges" total 15, not 16 and there is no fourth dimension to the construction, a very imprtant attribute of a hypercube.

So what you are really doing is using these unrelated concepts to try to justify a non-justifiable position. You have not evidenced that the Urim and Thummm are actually cube shaped, you have only assumed that and with no valid reason.

So, not only can you not demonstrate any reason to believe that the Urim and Thummim are 5 stones shaped as a tetrahedron and four octants, you can't even establish the very basic shape or even if the object is even regular.


If you choose to believe that it is a cube, fine. But don't for one second pretend that you can evidence this or that your assumption is anything but faith-based.

Your position that you have evidence that the Urim and Thummim is particularly five stones of specific shapes is extarordinarily illogical. You have no such evidence.

 

[cupid dave]

It is right.


You keep saying that a cube is hinted at. But it isn't.

But let's say it is just to illustrate a point.


How do you get from a cube shape to five stones in tetrahedron and octant shapes?


You don't. You simply can't get there. There is no reason to jump to that conclusion. There is no hint, no allegory. There is nothing that allows you to say that the Urim and Thummim are specifically five stones or in any particular set of shapes.


You have no ability to evidence this, whatsoever.

Not only is that suilly and lame, but itt defies what one can see in the replica I have produced many times.

The scientific details were specifically described by Buck Fuller.

We start off with this cube shape as an the basis for an oracle because the bible says so:


20 The Holy of Holies was twenty cubits in length, in breadth, and in height. He overlaid it with pure gold. He also overlaid the cedar altar.

 

[Adam]

That is NOT a description of the Urim and Thummim.

And there is still no reason to claim that the "Holy of Holies" is subdivided into a tetrahedron and four octants.

It is silly and lame to keep claiming that you can evidence something that there is no evidence for.

 

[cupid dave]

That is NOT a description of the Urim and Thummim.

And there is still no reason to claim that the "Holy of Holies" is subdivided into a tetrahedron and four octants.

It is silly and lame to keep claiming that you can evidence something that there is no evidence for.

Hmmm...
No.
I believe we are onto something here, and especially since there has been nothing at all in regard tp speculations until now, we need to continue, because we have just scratched the surface.

I am a bit surprised at a fellow like yourself, who said you are very very educated.
So far you demonstrate and obstructionist attitude.
You seem to lack any intellectual curiosity and evidence a foot dragging and crying and complaining criticism at every smallest point.

But I at this point, quite different from your apparent fear of a discovery of such great importance was spurred on to consider other things that seem supportive.
Of course, there is no "proof" thatcan be presented because you could and well may continue to nay say and refuse to accept any evidence even in mountain loads.

I have no control over that.
Only you and other lurking readers can step back and say, "That's proof enough for me."

That this proposed cubic U&T is an Oracle and the cube shaped Most Holy Place in the tempke is called The Oracle supports the HYPOTHESIS that both are cubes.


Inside the Most Holy cubic Room there was two four faced cherubim touching eachother.

That similarity in our U&T Cube matches since the four faces on the four inside tetrahedronal faces abutt against the four faces on the center chief cornerstone when the five pieces come together, like in the ritual of the Lulav and Etrog:

 

[Adam]

Save the ad homs.


What you have is a series of unrelated and unsupported claims.

Now the claim is "one oracle is a cube, therefore ALL oracles are cubes."

Before we can even begin to falsify this, we must know what definition you are using for "oracle." It isn't original to the Hebrew language, because an oracle is simply speech.


For example, Gen 11:1

For the whole earth was of one language; of one oracle.



The word occurs 1439 times in the OT.

Your modern English definition is used to describe the Urim and Thummim, but superimposes a meaning on the Holy Place that was never there.

The Holy Place is not an "oracle" in the sense that you are using it and does not share the definition that you are giving the Urim and Thummim.

"Oracles" in the original intent are not cube shaped because they are not objects.

 

[cupid dave]

Save the ad homs.


What you have is a series of unrelated and unsupported claims.

Now the claim is "one oracle is a cube, therefore ALL oracles are cubes."

Before we can even begin to falsify this, we must know what definition you are using for "oracle." It isn't original to the Hebrew language, because an oracle is simply speech.


For example, Gen 11:1

For the whole earth was of one language; of one oracle.



The word occurs 1439 times in the OT.

Your modern English definition is used to describe the Urim and Thummim, but superimposes a meaning on the Holy Place that was never there.

The Holy Place is not an "oracle" in the sense that you are using it and does not share the definition that you are giving the Urim and Thummim.

"Oracles" in the original intent are not cube shaped because they are not objects.

The actual oracle is the human brain when it properly and geometrically organizes the incoming data from the seven senses and analyzes the information in the twelve little brains called the 12 Cortex Functional Areas.
This is why the bible is revealing this MODEL...

The idea that men can divine the will of God by making a mental model of the Truth,(i,e.; The Christ: jhn 14:6), explains Gen 1:26.

What we are discussing here is the Bible's subtle description of what we independently have discover when Buckminister Fuller developed his Geometry of thinking Theory in his books which he intuitively realized was the the one thing that explains everything, i.e.; The Truth.

We can all use this oracle which is available to us all, simply by modelling the same way of organizing and ordering the information that comes to our mind and thinking clearly about it, by cognitively utilizing all 12 Cortex Functional Areas.

We see this as the meaning of the rituals that were incorporated into Judaism along side of the Torah, which both reveals the model in concrete geometry as I have been slowly and painstakingly illustrating as you raise one reason ather the next to doubt the whole idea.
Togather we are using the Socratic Method of answering back to questions, arguments, and resistance to the genral idea, but slowly getting more and more of the information on the table.

Consider that Seder means "order."

The ritual of passover marks the escape from Egypt, but all the promise of entering the New Jerusalem of 900BC and again, the New Jerusalem over all Rome.
That cube shaped oracle was the Most Holy Place where the lamb of Israel, the son-of-god, was sacrificed in 1942-45:

This cube shaped sukkah is the one which Zechariah prophesied woukd require all the nations to come and live under for that 1000 years of Christian monasticism:


Zech. 14:16 And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles


Of course, once a year, these gentile christian/Jews called tabernacles by the ephemism of Easter, but they did build their booths, metaphysically, by acknowledging the mandatory Universal Christianity of 380AD that required allRomans to become Christians.

 

[Adam]

Just a bunch more claims that have nothing to do with you not being able to evidence any particular shape of the Urim and Thummim.

 

[cupid dave]

Just a bunch more claims that have nothing to do with you not being able to evidence any particular shape of the Urim and Thummim.

Maybe...
But the bottom line to these "claims" is that the Urim and Thumim is revealed, and the four walls are opened wide so anyone who wishes can enter starting now, right here:

Rev. 21:19 And the foundations of the wall of the city were garnished with all manner of precious (Christian) stones. The first foundation was (THE ROMAN CATHOLIC CHURCH) jasper; the second (ORTHODOX EASTERN CATHOLIC CHURCH), sapphire; the third, (LUTHERANS), a chalcedony; the fourth, (EPISCOPALIANS), an emerald;

Rev. 21:20 The fifth, (PRESBYTERIANS), sardonyx; the sixth, (METHODISTS), sardius; the seventh, (THE BAPTISTS), chrysolite; the eighth, (CHURCH OF CHRIST'S DISCIPLES), beryl; the ninth, (UNITED CHURCH OF CHRIST), a topaz; the tenth, (LATTER-DAY-SAINTS AND MORMONS), a chrysoprasus; the eleventh, (PENTECOSTALS), a jacinth; the twelfth, (JEHOVAH WITNESSES), an amethyst.

...And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.

 

[Adam]

That doesn't even make sense.

 

[cupid dave]

That doesn't even make sense.

It probably would make sense to the mormons.
The Cube shaped New Jerusalem that lasted 1000 years and formed a virtual Sukkah over all the Roman World disappeared during the Renaissance, (when the seven headed beast of the previous culture re-appeared).
That city of Christianity is now largely centered in America.


I was struck by the claim of the mormons that the New Jerusalem woud appear in the very center of the USA, which I believe is still part of their teachings.

Whereas I oppose the mormon claim, that Smith had use of the Urim and Thummim which he said was a pair of spectacles he used to read those golden plates, I do agree with the idea he mentioned above.



///


Essentially, the cube shaped city of the New Jerusalem (a giant Urim and Thummim) measures 1500 miles in length, width, and height before the 12 foundation walls are parted and placed to form a square which then would measure @3000 miles X 3000 miles:




(According to the World Almanac)

 

[Adam]

Now you are just talking over the evidence and ingoring the substance of the circumstance which shows you have nothing to substantiate your claim that the Urim and Thummim are cube shaped.

 

[cupid dave]

Yes, the five part cube is Sukkah and symbolized by the Lulav/Etrog Sets

Closing up the cube and shaking it is the ritual which is exactly for the purpose of supporting this theological theory when it was to come up, as it g-finally has here and now.




Lulav/Etrog Sets
We have secured a source for the finest quality Etrog/Lulav sets from Eretz Yisrael, shipped direct to you a day or two before Sukkot for guaranteed freshness.

Sets include an etrog, lulav, willow branches, three myrtle leaves and a woven palm holder,....

Let's revisit the Ritual connections to this cube:
Consider the rather foolish steps in this ritual which are otherwise meaningless unless this Urim and Thummim is the purpose:




1. Stand facing east and hold the lulav in your right hand with the spine towards you. Hold the etrog in your left hand, (the four other parts separated from the tetrahedron inside), with the pittam facing down, opposite of the way it grows. You now recite a blessing that goes: "Baruch atah Adonai Eloheynu Melech Ha Holam, asher kidshanu b'mitzvotav, v'tzivanu al netilat lulav:" Blessed are You, Ruler of the Universe, Who has sanctified us with Your commandments and commanded us concerning the taking of the palm branch.

2. On the first day only, you now recite a blessing called the Shechiyanu. It goes like this: "Baruch atah Adonai, Eloheynu Melech Ha Olam, shechiyanu v'kimanu, v'higianu, lazman ha ze:" Blessed are You Adonai our God, Ruler of the Universe, who has given us life, sustained us, and enabled us to reach this moment. (which is the purpose of this cube that implies the mind is our survival tool).

3. Now bring the lulav and etrog together with both hands. Facing each of the six directions - east, south, west, north, above and below - you are going to wave them up and down. Hold the lulav and etrog so that the top of the etrog is next to the bottom of the lulav and so that the etrog is covered with your fingers, (as if hidden and implying it is inside the Lulav?).

4. Face east and, holding the lulav and etrog with both hands, extend your arms, shake the lulav and etrog together (signifying they are one), then bring your arms back towards you. Repeat this twice more, (3times, which implies the triade of the eighth face inside).

5. Repeat for the directions south, west and north.

6. Repeat for the directions upwards and downwards, (analogous to the six faces and directions of a cube).

7. When waving the lulav and etrog, Sephardic Jews will wave them right, left, front, back, up and down, (again signifying the six faces of a cube).

 

[cupid dave]

Now you are just talking over the evidence and ingoring the substance of the circumstance which shows you have nothing to substantiate your claim that the Urim and Thummim are cube shaped.

Hmmm..

No.
I am demonstrating the use of this Urim and Thummim in regard to predicting the future.

 

[Adam]

Let's revisit the Ritual connections to this cube:
Consider the rather foolish steps in this ritual which are otherwise meaningless unless this Urim and Thummim is the purpose:




1. Stand facing east and hold the lulav in your right hand with the spine towards you. Hold the etrog in your left hand, (the four other parts separated from the tetrahedron inside), with the pittam facing down, opposite of the way it grows. You now recite a blessing that goes: "Baruch atah Adonai Eloheynu Melech Ha Holam, asher kidshanu b'mitzvotav, v'tzivanu al netilat lulav:" Blessed are You, Ruler of the Universe, Who has sanctified us with Your commandments and commanded us concerning the taking of the palm branch.

2. On the first day only, you now recite a blessing called the Shechiyanu. It goes like this: "Baruch atah Adonai, Eloheynu Melech Ha Olam, shechiyanu v'kimanu, v'higianu, lazman ha ze:" Blessed are You Adonai our God, Ruler of the Universe, who has given us life, sustained us, and enabled us to reach this moment. (which is the purpose of this cube that implies the mind is our survival tool).

3. Now bring the lulav and etrog together with both hands. Facing each of the six directions - east, south, west, north, above and below - you are going to wave them up and down. Hold the lulav and etrog so that the top of the etrog is next to the bottom of the lulav and so that the etrog is covered with your fingers, (as if hidden and implying it is inside the Lulav?).

4. Face east and, holding the lulav and etrog with both hands, extend your arms, shake the lulav and etrog together (signifying they are one), then bring your arms back towards you. Repeat this twice more, (3times, which implies the triade of the eighth face inside).

5. Repeat for the directions south, west and north.

6. Repeat for the directions upwards and downwards, (analogous to the six faces and directions of a cube).

7. When waving the lulav and etrog, Sephardic Jews will wave them right, left, front, back, up and down, (again signifying the six faces of a cube).

You have made no connection to the Urim and Thummim so everything you post is irrelevant to the claim of a particular shape of the Urim and Thummim.

 

[Adam]

Hmmm..

No.
I am demonstrating the use of this Urim and Thummim in regard to predicting the future.

Really? Be my guest.

Predict the future for me.

 

[cupid dave]

You have made no connection to the Urim and Thummim so everything you post is irrelevant to the claim of a particular shape of the Urim and Thummim.

Lame.
That is merely the side you are supposed to support, not decide who is right.
On my side, I similarly am claiming the exact opposite. Here the weird ancient Ritual appears to emphasize the Urim and Thummim it apparently is intended to help me reveal:

ARBA'AHMINIM 69 ​

Seven, (1) Etrog, three (3) myrtle, two (2) willow, and a (1) palm

Four (4) species, like outside of that cube, pressed together while reading a Psalm.

Arb'ah minim, these seven (7) branches of plants,

Twelve (12) tribes coming together, while Israel chants.


[

HALLEL 71 ​

In Hallel, of special note, Psalm Hundred eighteen, (Ps 118:22)

Read waving Lulav, an ancient tradition does beam.

Verse twenty-two (3+7+12): The stone (Is 28:16) they rejected

Is the corner of cube shaped Hebrew Temple they had erected, (1Kings 6:20).

ACUBE BY ANALOGY ONE MIGHT NOTE​

Twenty-two representsthe total faces

Found on the cube'striangular places.

Twelve on outer walls augmentseven inside, congruent,

While the three Levite clans symbolize Shiloh's tent.

HOSHANNA RABBA 72

With scrolls, the seventh day a procession!
Singing seven Hoshana prayers in succession.
Seven times they pass the "Bimah" around
With five "aravot" beaten and bound.​

And, as in Sukkah, the seven days augmented

By an eight, hence inconsistency prevented.

Seven patriarchs and one Messiah,

Shemin Azeret; Hatan Torah.

SHEMINI AZERET 73 ​

The twelve (12) chapters of Ecclesiastes are read

With special attention when Verse 11:2 is said:

"Divide a portion into seven, yea, even into eight."

This last day ritual seems my point to exaggerate.

And, as in Sukkah, the seven (7) days augmented

By an eight, hence inconsistency prevented.

Seven (7) patriarchs and one (1) Messiah,

Shemini Azeret; Hatan Torah.

 

[Adam]

You have still made no connection to the Urim and Thummim, whatsoever.


These other subjects you've brought up are unrelated and also misrespresented.


Lastly, you need to work on your math.

if you have 5 objects which each have 4 faces, you get 20 sides, not 22.


There is no forced numerology you can present (especially when the numbers literally do not add up) that will evidence the urim and thummim to be a cube.

 

[cupid dave]

Really? Be my guest.

Predict the future for me.

The Urim and Thummim proposed already did that, but you insist you are blind to what it predicted.

The first "Jerusalem" was only a promise in Sinia when the temple was merely a tent inside the square area where the 12 tribes Taberacled:

Then, in the promised land of Israel, inside the temple, was a Cube Shaped room called the Most Holy Place:

During the 1000 year reign of Jesus over all the known world, the cube of the New Jerusalem covered the whole Roman Empire:

Today, the prediction has largely come true, that the open cube of the New Jerusalem runs across the 3000 mile by 3000 mile land mass of America:

The walls of the New Jerusalem over Western Europe open up and reform the tents arond the tbaernacle of Christianity now centered in America.
When the walls form a square around the Most Holy Place they run 3000 miles square across the USA.

 

[Adam]

Throwing a gish gallop of even more unsupported claims does not prove your original claim.

Unless you can demonstrate with evidence that the Urim and Thummim are cubed, you have nothing.