Salvation in Christ - Secure

[Guest]

Following are seven reasons from the Bible why a born-again Christian cannot lose his salvation. Over 200 Scriptures are referenced, which are given at the end for ease of readability. Anyone reading this who doubts the truth of this doctrine, sometimes called "once saved, always saved", is encouraged to look up and read the Scriptures for himself.

1. Eternal Life - The Bible says that ETERNAL life is a present possession [1]. If we could lose that life from God [2] then we never had ETERNAL life. Our life is Christ's life when we are saved [3] (see #4) and Christ cannot die again [4]. I John 5:13 says we can KNOW that we have ETERNAL life. God promised eternal life and God cannot lie [5].

2. Born Again as Sons of God - When we accept Christ we are born again of God [6], are passed from death unto life [7], and become a new creature [8], or creation [9], with all things new. We would have to become unborn to lose our salvation and born a third time to get saved again, which is not mentioned in the Bible. We also become a son of God [10] with a new nature, Christ's nature [11], and Christ cannot deny himself [11]. We get an incorruptible nature [12] and our will is changed [13]. John 10:27 says the believer WILL follow Christ.

After we are saved, God no longer deals with us as sinners but as sons [14]. He chastises but his chastisement is not payment for sin, it is child-training. God may chastise but the payment for ALL sins was made 2000 years ago on Calvary (see #3). Sometimes God may even chastise with death [15]. The fellowship with God may change but not the Father-son relationship. For example, a father tells his boy not to play with the father's delicate tools or they will break. The boy disobeys and breaks the tools. As chastisement the father smacks the boy but the smack does not pay for the tools; the father still must pay for the new tools and the boy is still his father's son. All of our sins were paid for on Calvary and ALL of them are forgiven when we are saved (see #3).

3. What Happens to a Believer's Sins - In God's eyes when we get saved we are perfect forever [16], justified (made as if we had never sinned [17]), and sanctified [18], as far as our salvation is concerned. We still live in a sinful body and still sin but these only affect our fellowship with the Father once we are saved (see #2). The Bible says that God WILL NOT impute (charge up) sin to a believer [19] and that includes ANY sin. If a justified person could go to hell he was never truly justified. If after being saved a sin or sins could cause one to lose his salvation then all of his sins were not paid for at Calvary and forgiven (washed away) when he trusted Christ and his blood [20], as the Bible says [21]. God forgives and forgets [22] every sin, including future sins (all our sins were future when Christ died for them), when we get saved.

4. What We Have "In" Jesus Christ - When we get saved we are placed into the body of Christ [23]. We become "flesh of his flesh and bone of his bone" [24]. Our soul is "circumcised" from our flesh with a circumcision "made without hands" [25]. The Bible says that the body (church) will be presented without spot or blemish [26]. It cannot be without blemish if pieces have to be removed. Our position is settled: we are mystically seated in heaven already [27], a joint-heir with Christ (a joint heir cannot be disinherited [28]), and safe in Jesus' and God's hand [29] where we cannot be plucked out. The Holy Spirit places us IN Christ [23] just as we were IN Adam [30] before we were saved. IN Christ we are safe from condemnation [31], accepted [32], preserved forever [33], sanctified [34], alive forever [35], a new creature [36], perfect [37], righteous [38]; and we have liberty [39], all spiritual blessings [40], and an inheritance [41]. Our inheritance is reserved for us in heaven [42] (see #6), will not fade away [42], is incorruptible [42], and cannot be defiled [42].

Colossians 3:3 says our life is HID with Christ IN God; Satan has to get through God and then Christ to get to us, to cause us to be lost again. If Satan can overcome God and Christ to get one Christian, then he can get all of us because we are all sinners alike [43]. If Satan knew there was a way to make a Christian lose his salvation he is subtle enough that he could cause every Christian to lose his salvation [43.1]. For a believer to go to Hell, Christ and God [44] would have to go to Hell, because we have everything in standing and position that the Lord Jesus Christ has and we are "in" Him [45]. Our security is in a perfect person: Jesus Christ [45.1].

5. "God" Keeps Our Salvation - Throughout the Bible Jesus is called the Saviour [45.2]. Hebrews 7:25 says he saves to the uttermost, or he COMPLETELY saves. Eternal security is not a separate doctrine from salvation; if we are not saved forever then we were never saved at all because Christ saves us from ALL of our sins when we get saved (see #3); and gives us ETERNAL, EVERLASTING life (see #1). Christ came to save [46]. Once we are saved it is God's responsibility, not ours, to keep our salvation, because we never could. Just as a believer can never save himself, he can never keep himself. We are kept "by the power of God" [47], not our power, and "HE is able to keep that which I have committed unto him against THAT DAY" [48]. When we are born again God begins a work in us that He will perform until the day of Jesus Christ [49]. Jude 24 says that Christ, not us, will KEEP us from falling and present us faultless to God. We are confirmed unto the end [50]. Christ is the "author and finisher of our faith" [51]. "Whatever God does, it will be forever and nothing can be put to it or taken from it" [52]; and that includes our salvation, AMEN!

The security of our soul depends on Christ's righteousness, not our own [53] (see #4). If sinning in any way could cause one to lose his salvation, then Paul would have lost his, because AFTER he was saved he said he was the chief of sinners [54]. We get saved by God's grace [55], not by what we do [56], and our salvation remains by God's grace, not according to what WE do; we will be saved from wrath THROUGH him [57].

If we can do something to lose our salvation then God failed and our salvation was not only dependent upon God's grace, but also upon our behaviour - which is works! (Doing works in the Lord's name is not definite evidence of salvation, we must KNOW him as our personal saviour [58], see #8.) Salvation is a gift, not a wage [59]; it is obtained, not attained [60]. It never was deserved and never will be. If our safety is dependent upon our works then we are really saved by our works and must earn our salvation, which is a direct violation of Scripture and the truth of salvation by God's grace ONLY [61].

A person who believes that he must work to keep his salvation, instead of work because he HAS salvation, needs to make sure he is ONLY trusting the Saviour Jesus Christ to take him to heaven and not Jesus Christ plus his good works; he needs to understand how to be saved and what salvation really is [62].

6. Jesus is Faithful - Not only are we kept by God's power but we CANNOT come into condemnation [63]; we are NOT condemned [64]. Our intercessor is Jesus Christ [65] and he pleads our case when we are saved; that is why we can never be condemned again with the penalty of our already forgiven sins, or else Christ's intercession is not sufficient. If we lose our salvation we are condemned again and the Scriptures [66] are not true! Once we are saved and given to Christ [67] we cannot be lost again because John 6:39 says that of all that God gives Christ, Christ will lose nothing (and we are something).

We will NEVER die [68] but will live forever [69] (see #1). Christ will IN NO WISE (under ANY circumstances) cast out any that come to him [70]. All that get saved will NEVER perish [71] (never means NEVER). Christ will NEVER leave us or forsake us [72]. NOTHING (including ourselves) can separate us from the love of God IN Christ [73], and all believers are IN Christ (see #4).

7. The Holy Spirit, Our Seal - God gives the Holy Spirit to every believer when we get saved [75] as the earnest (down payment [76]) of his promise to take us to heaven and give us our inheritance [77] (see #4). We can only be unsaved if we do not have the Holy Spirit [78], which means we would have to lose the Holy Spirit to get lost again; but the Bible says we are SEALED by and with the Holy Spirit UNTIL the day of redemption [79]. The Holy Spirit can be quenched [80] or grieved [81] but not lost.

8. The Sinful Believer and the False Christian - We will not be perfect until we get to heaven, and we may be disobedient, but we cannot lose our salvation. We can still fall, but not so as to be eternally lost, for the Lord upholds us [82]. We are still tempted and tried [83], as Jesus was [84], but only for the purpose of strengthening us and making us more of what the Lord wants us to be. Our works may not stand the fiery test of the judgement [85] but our salvation will [86].

Not all who claim to be saved are. Not all church members are saved. If they are saved, they will eventually show a change and false professors of Christ eventually fall away [87]. Just make sure you are trusting ONLY Jesus [88] and HIS righteousness [89] to get you to heaven, not YOUR faith or a prayer or work(s), and you believe (trust [90]) to the "saving of the soul" [91].

9. Misapplication of Scripture / Rightly Dividing the Word - One should not twist Scripture [92] talking about the Old Testament saints, Tribulation saints, or the losing of a ministry, testimony, nation, or life and try to make it prove a sinner forgiven by the grace of God through Christ's blood can lose his salvation. The Word of God must be "rightly divided" [93] or it can be "wrested unto your own destruction" [94].

Blessings - Urk / http://www.biblebelievers.com/montgomery/montgomery002.html

 

[Guest]

Blessings.

 

[Butch5]

Following are seven reasons from the Bible why a born-again Christian cannot lose his salvation. Over 200 Scriptures are referenced, which are given at the end for ease of readability. Anyone reading this who doubts the truth of this doctrine, sometimes called "once saved, always saved", is encouraged to look up and read the Scriptures for himself.

1. Eternal Life - The Bible says that ETERNAL life is a present possession [1]. If we could lose that life from God [2] then we never had ETERNAL life. Our life is Christ's life when we are saved [3] (see #4) and Christ cannot die again [4]. I John 5:13 says we can KNOW that we have ETERNAL life. God promised eternal life and God cannot lie [5].

2. Born Again as Sons of God - When we accept Christ we are born again of God [6], are passed from death unto life [7], and become a new creature [8], or creation [9], with all things new. We would have to become unborn to lose our salvation and born a third time to get saved again, which is not mentioned in the Bible. We also become a son of God [10] with a new nature, Christ's nature [11], and Christ cannot deny himself [11]. We get an incorruptible nature [12] and our will is changed [13]. John 10:27 says the believer WILL follow Christ.

After we are saved, God no longer deals with us as sinners but as sons [14]. He chastises but his chastisement is not payment for sin, it is child-training. God may chastise but the payment for ALL sins was made 2000 years ago on Calvary (see #3). Sometimes God may even chastise with death [15]. The fellowship with God may change but not the Father-son relationship. For example, a father tells his boy not to play with the father's delicate tools or they will break. The boy disobeys and breaks the tools. As chastisement the father smacks the boy but the smack does not pay for the tools; the father still must pay for the new tools and the boy is still his father's son. All of our sins were paid for on Calvary and ALL of them are forgiven when we are saved (see #3).

3. What Happens to a Believer's Sins - In God's eyes when we get saved we are perfect forever [16], justified (made as if we had never sinned [17]), and sanctified [18], as far as our salvation is concerned. We still live in a sinful body and still sin but these only affect our fellowship with the Father once we are saved (see #2). The Bible says that God WILL NOT impute (charge up) sin to a believer [19] and that includes ANY sin. If a justified person could go to hell he was never truly justified. If after being saved a sin or sins could cause one to lose his salvation then all of his sins were not paid for at Calvary and forgiven (washed away) when he trusted Christ and his blood [20], as the Bible says [21]. God forgives and forgets [22] every sin, including future sins (all our sins were future when Christ died for them), when we get saved.

4. What We Have "In" Jesus Christ - When we get saved we are placed into the body of Christ [23]. We become "flesh of his flesh and bone of his bone" [24]. Our soul is "circumcised" from our flesh with a circumcision "made without hands" [25]. The Bible says that the body (church) will be presented without spot or blemish [26]. It cannot be without blemish if pieces have to be removed. Our position is settled: we are mystically seated in heaven already [27], a joint-heir with Christ (a joint heir cannot be disinherited [28]), and safe in Jesus' and God's hand [29] where we cannot be plucked out. The Holy Spirit places us IN Christ [23] just as we were IN Adam [30] before we were saved. IN Christ we are safe from condemnation [31], accepted [32], preserved forever [33], sanctified [34], alive forever [35], a new creature [36], perfect [37], righteous [38]; and we have liberty [39], all spiritual blessings [40], and an inheritance [41]. Our inheritance is reserved for us in heaven [42] (see #6), will not fade away [42], is incorruptible [42], and cannot be defiled [42].

Colossians 3:3 says our life is HID with Christ IN God; Satan has to get through God and then Christ to get to us, to cause us to be lost again. If Satan can overcome God and Christ to get one Christian, then he can get all of us because we are all sinners alike [43]. If Satan knew there was a way to make a Christian lose his salvation he is subtle enough that he could cause every Christian to lose his salvation [43.1]. For a believer to go to Hell, Christ and God [44] would have to go to Hell, because we have everything in standing and position that the Lord Jesus Christ has and we are "in" Him [45]. Our security is in a perfect person: Jesus Christ [45.1].

5. "God" Keeps Our Salvation - Throughout the Bible Jesus is called the Saviour [45.2]. Hebrews 7:25 says he saves to the uttermost, or he COMPLETELY saves. Eternal security is not a separate doctrine from salvation; if we are not saved forever then we were never saved at all because Christ saves us from ALL of our sins when we get saved (see #3); and gives us ETERNAL, EVERLASTING life (see #1). Christ came to save [46]. Once we are saved it is God's responsibility, not ours, to keep our salvation, because we never could. Just as a believer can never save himself, he can never keep himself. We are kept "by the power of God" [47], not our power, and "HE is able to keep that which I have committed unto him against THAT DAY" [48]. When we are born again God begins a work in us that He will perform until the day of Jesus Christ [49]. Jude 24 says that Christ, not us, will KEEP us from falling and present us faultless to God. We are confirmed unto the end [50]. Christ is the "author and finisher of our faith" [51]. "Whatever God does, it will be forever and nothing can be put to it or taken from it" [52]; and that includes our salvation, AMEN!

The security of our soul depends on Christ's righteousness, not our own [53] (see #4). If sinning in any way could cause one to lose his salvation, then Paul would have lost his, because AFTER he was saved he said he was the chief of sinners [54]. We get saved by God's grace [55], not by what we do [56], and our salvation remains by God's grace, not according to what WE do; we will be saved from wrath THROUGH him [57].

If we can do something to lose our salvation then God failed and our salvation was not only dependent upon God's grace, but also upon our behaviour - which is works! (Doing works in the Lord's name is not definite evidence of salvation, we must KNOW him as our personal saviour [58], see #8.) Salvation is a gift, not a wage [59]; it is obtained, not attained [60]. It never was deserved and never will be. If our safety is dependent upon our works then we are really saved by our works and must earn our salvation, which is a direct violation of Scripture and the truth of salvation by God's grace ONLY [61].

A person who believes that he must work to keep his salvation, instead of work because he HAS salvation, needs to make sure he is ONLY trusting the Saviour Jesus Christ to take him to heaven and not Jesus Christ plus his good works; he needs to understand how to be saved and what salvation really is [62].

6. Jesus is Faithful - Not only are we kept by God's power but we CANNOT come into condemnation [63]; we are NOT condemned [64]. Our intercessor is Jesus Christ [65] and he pleads our case when we are saved; that is why we can never be condemned again with the penalty of our already forgiven sins, or else Christ's intercession is not sufficient. If we lose our salvation we are condemned again and the Scriptures [66] are not true! Once we are saved and given to Christ [67] we cannot be lost again because John 6:39 says that of all that God gives Christ, Christ will lose nothing (and we are something).

We will NEVER die [68] but will live forever [69] (see #1). Christ will IN NO WISE (under ANY circumstances) cast out any that come to him [70]. All that get saved will NEVER perish [71] (never means NEVER). Christ will NEVER leave us or forsake us [72]. NOTHING (including ourselves) can separate us from the love of God IN Christ [73], and all believers are IN Christ (see #4).

7. The Holy Spirit, Our Seal - God gives the Holy Spirit to every believer when we get saved [75] as the earnest (down payment [76]) of his promise to take us to heaven and give us our inheritance [77] (see #4). We can only be unsaved if we do not have the Holy Spirit [78], which means we would have to lose the Holy Spirit to get lost again; but the Bible says we are SEALED by and with the Holy Spirit UNTIL the day of redemption [79]. The Holy Spirit can be quenched [80] or grieved [81] but not lost.

8. The Sinful Believer and the False Christian - We will not be perfect until we get to heaven, and we may be disobedient, but we cannot lose our salvation. We can still fall, but not so as to be eternally lost, for the Lord upholds us [82]. We are still tempted and tried [83], as Jesus was [84], but only for the purpose of strengthening us and making us more of what the Lord wants us to be. Our works may not stand the fiery test of the judgement [85] but our salvation will [86].

Not all who claim to be saved are. Not all church members are saved. If they are saved, they will eventually show a change and false professors of Christ eventually fall away [87]. Just make sure you are trusting ONLY Jesus [88] and HIS righteousness [89] to get you to heaven, not YOUR faith or a prayer or work(s), and you believe (trust [90]) to the "saving of the soul" [91].

9. Misapplication of Scripture / Rightly Dividing the Word - One should not twist Scripture [92] talking about the Old Testament saints, Tribulation saints, or the losing of a ministry, testimony, nation, or life and try to make it prove a sinner forgiven by the grace of God through Christ's blood can lose his salvation. The Word of God must be "rightly divided" [93] or it can be "wrested unto your own destruction" [94].

Blessings - Urk / http://www.biblebelievers.com/montgomery/montgomery002.html

There's no need to look up the passages, the Scriptures do not teach once saved always saved. I'm sure upon closer inspection the context will show that those passages are not teaching such a thing.

 

[Grappler]

Following are seven reasons from the Bible why a born-again Christian cannot lose his salvation. Over 200 Scriptures are referenced, which are given at the end for ease of readability. Anyone reading this who doubts the truth of this doctrine, sometimes called "once saved, always saved", is encouraged to look up and read the Scriptures for himself.

1. Eternal Life - The Bible says that ETERNAL life is a present possession [1]. If we could lose that life from God [2] then we never had ETERNAL life. Our life is Christ's life when we are saved [3] (see #4) and Christ cannot die again [4]. I John 5:13 says we can KNOW that we have ETERNAL life. God promised eternal life and God cannot lie [5].

2. Born Again as Sons of God - When we accept Christ we are born again of God [6], are passed from death unto life [7], and become a new creature [8], or creation [9], with all things new. We would have to become unborn to lose our salvation and born a third time to get saved again, which is not mentioned in the Bible. We also become a son of God [10] with a new nature, Christ's nature [11], and Christ cannot deny himself [11]. We get an incorruptible nature [12] and our will is changed [13]. John 10:27 says the believer WILL follow Christ.

After we are saved, God no longer deals with us as sinners but as sons [14]. He chastises but his chastisement is not payment for sin, it is child-training. God may chastise but the payment for ALL sins was made 2000 years ago on Calvary (see #3). Sometimes God may even chastise with death [15]. The fellowship with God may change but not the Father-son relationship. For example, a father tells his boy not to play with the father's delicate tools or they will break. The boy disobeys and breaks the tools. As chastisement the father smacks the boy but the smack does not pay for the tools; the father still must pay for the new tools and the boy is still his father's son. All of our sins were paid for on Calvary and ALL of them are forgiven when we are saved (see #3).

3. What Happens to a Believer's Sins - In God's eyes when we get saved we are perfect forever [16], justified (made as if we had never sinned [17]), and sanctified [18], as far as our salvation is concerned. We still live in a sinful body and still sin but these only affect our fellowship with the Father once we are saved (see #2). The Bible says that God WILL NOT impute (charge up) sin to a believer [19] and that includes ANY sin. If a justified person could go to hell he was never truly justified. If after being saved a sin or sins could cause one to lose his salvation then all of his sins were not paid for at Calvary and forgiven (washed away) when he trusted Christ and his blood [20], as the Bible says [21]. God forgives and forgets [22] every sin, including future sins (all our sins were future when Christ died for them), when we get saved.

4. What We Have "In" Jesus Christ - When we get saved we are placed into the body of Christ [23]. We become "flesh of his flesh and bone of his bone" [24]. Our soul is "circumcised" from our flesh with a circumcision "made without hands" [25]. The Bible says that the body (church) will be presented without spot or blemish [26]. It cannot be without blemish if pieces have to be removed. Our position is settled: we are mystically seated in heaven already [27], a joint-heir with Christ (a joint heir cannot be disinherited [28]), and safe in Jesus' and God's hand [29] where we cannot be plucked out. The Holy Spirit places us IN Christ [23] just as we were IN Adam [30] before we were saved. IN Christ we are safe from condemnation [31], accepted [32], preserved forever [33], sanctified [34], alive forever [35], a new creature [36], perfect [37], righteous [38]; and we have liberty [39], all spiritual blessings [40], and an inheritance [41]. Our inheritance is reserved for us in heaven [42] (see #6), will not fade away [42], is incorruptible [42], and cannot be defiled [42].

Colossians 3:3 says our life is HID with Christ IN God; Satan has to get through God and then Christ to get to us, to cause us to be lost again. If Satan can overcome God and Christ to get one Christian, then he can get all of us because we are all sinners alike [43]. If Satan knew there was a way to make a Christian lose his salvation he is subtle enough that he could cause every Christian to lose his salvation [43.1]. For a believer to go to Hell, Christ and God [44] would have to go to Hell, because we have everything in standing and position that the Lord Jesus Christ has and we are "in" Him [45]. Our security is in a perfect person: Jesus Christ [45.1].

5. "God" Keeps Our Salvation - Throughout the Bible Jesus is called the Saviour [45.2]. Hebrews 7:25 says he saves to the uttermost, or he COMPLETELY saves. Eternal security is not a separate doctrine from salvation; if we are not saved forever then we were never saved at all because Christ saves us from ALL of our sins when we get saved (see #3); and gives us ETERNAL, EVERLASTING life (see #1). Christ came to save [46]. Once we are saved it is God's responsibility, not ours, to keep our salvation, because we never could. Just as a believer can never save himself, he can never keep himself. We are kept "by the power of God" [47], not our power, and "HE is able to keep that which I have committed unto him against THAT DAY" [48]. When we are born again God begins a work in us that He will perform until the day of Jesus Christ [49]. Jude 24 says that Christ, not us, will KEEP us from falling and present us faultless to God. We are confirmed unto the end [50]. Christ is the "author and finisher of our faith" [51]. "Whatever God does, it will be forever and nothing can be put to it or taken from it" [52]; and that includes our salvation, AMEN!

The security of our soul depends on Christ's righteousness, not our own [53] (see #4). If sinning in any way could cause one to lose his salvation, then Paul would have lost his, because AFTER he was saved he said he was the chief of sinners [54]. We get saved by God's grace [55], not by what we do [56], and our salvation remains by God's grace, not according to what WE do; we will be saved from wrath THROUGH him [57].

If we can do something to lose our salvation then God failed and our salvation was not only dependent upon God's grace, but also upon our behaviour - which is works! (Doing works in the Lord's name is not definite evidence of salvation, we must KNOW him as our personal saviour [58], see #8.) Salvation is a gift, not a wage [59]; it is obtained, not attained [60]. It never was deserved and never will be. If our safety is dependent upon our works then we are really saved by our works and must earn our salvation, which is a direct violation of Scripture and the truth of salvation by God's grace ONLY [61].

A person who believes that he must work to keep his salvation, instead of work because he HAS salvation, needs to make sure he is ONLY trusting the Saviour Jesus Christ to take him to heaven and not Jesus Christ plus his good works; he needs to understand how to be saved and what salvation really is [62].

6. Jesus is Faithful - Not only are we kept by God's power but we CANNOT come into condemnation [63]; we are NOT condemned [64]. Our intercessor is Jesus Christ [65] and he pleads our case when we are saved; that is why we can never be condemned again with the penalty of our already forgiven sins, or else Christ's intercession is not sufficient. If we lose our salvation we are condemned again and the Scriptures [66] are not true! Once we are saved and given to Christ [67] we cannot be lost again because John 6:39 says that of all that God gives Christ, Christ will lose nothing (and we are something).

We will NEVER die [68] but will live forever [69] (see #1). Christ will IN NO WISE (under ANY circumstances) cast out any that come to him [70]. All that get saved will NEVER perish [71] (never means NEVER). Christ will NEVER leave us or forsake us [72]. NOTHING (including ourselves) can separate us from the love of God IN Christ [73], and all believers are IN Christ (see #4).

7. The Holy Spirit, Our Seal - God gives the Holy Spirit to every believer when we get saved [75] as the earnest (down payment [76]) of his promise to take us to heaven and give us our inheritance [77] (see #4). We can only be unsaved if we do not have the Holy Spirit [78], which means we would have to lose the Holy Spirit to get lost again; but the Bible says we are SEALED by and with the Holy Spirit UNTIL the day of redemption [79]. The Holy Spirit can be quenched [80] or grieved [81] but not lost.

8. The Sinful Believer and the False Christian - We will not be perfect until we get to heaven, and we may be disobedient, but we cannot lose our salvation. We can still fall, but not so as to be eternally lost, for the Lord upholds us [82]. We are still tempted and tried [83], as Jesus was [84], but only for the purpose of strengthening us and making us more of what the Lord wants us to be. Our works may not stand the fiery test of the judgement [85] but our salvation will [86].

Not all who claim to be saved are. Not all church members are saved. If they are saved, they will eventually show a change and false professors of Christ eventually fall away [87]. Just make sure you are trusting ONLY Jesus [88] and HIS righteousness [89] to get you to heaven, not YOUR faith or a prayer or work(s), and you believe (trust [90]) to the "saving of the soul" [91].

9. Misapplication of Scripture / Rightly Dividing the Word - One should not twist Scripture [92] talking about the Old Testament saints, Tribulation saints, or the losing of a ministry, testimony, nation, or life and try to make it prove a sinner forgiven by the grace of God through Christ's blood can lose his salvation. The Word of God must be "rightly divided" [93] or it can be "wrested unto your own destruction" [94].

Blessings - Urk / http://www.biblebelievers.com/montgomery/montgomery002.html

There's no need to look up the passages, the Scriptures do not teach once saved always saved. I'm sure upon closer inspection the context will show that those passages are not teaching such a thing.

Wrong. Butch...once you are born again you don't become unborn...that is rather irrational isn't it?

 

[Guest]

There's no need to look up the passages, the Scriptures do not teach once saved always saved. I'm sure upon closer inspection the context will show that those passages are not teaching such a thing.

Ephesians 4:30 & 1 Peter 1:4 proves otherwise. Why does this thread upset you Butch?

 

[Butch5]

There's no need to look up the passages, the Scriptures do not teach once saved always saved. I'm sure upon closer inspection the context will show that those passages are not teaching such a thing.

Ephesians 4:30 & 1 Peter 1:4 proves otherwise. Why does this thread upset you Butch?

Hi Urk,

I'm not upset. I've just debated this issue many times. I've seen most of the passages used to support it and when they are addressed in context we see that it is not what the Scriptures actually say. We find the idea being inferred from the passages. The passages are approached with the idea that they teach this doctrine and as such people believe they see in there, but it's not. In order to prove that salvation cannot be lost one needs to prove that a believer cannot change his mind. The majority of passages that are presented as proving salvation can't be lost are talking about God's ability to save. However, this is not the real issue. Those who argue that salvation can be lost are not questioning God's ability to save, they are questioning man's faithfulness. The two passages you posted here say nothing about whether salvation can be lost or not.

 

[Guest]

Hi Urk,

I'm not upset. I've just debated this issue many times. I've seen most of the passages used to support it and when they are addressed in context we see that it is not what the Scriptures actually say. We find the idea being inferred from the passages. The passages are approached with the idea that they teach this doctrine and as such people believe they see in there, but it's not. In order to prove that salvation cannot be lost one needs to prove that a believer cannot change his mind. The majority of passages that are presented as proving salvation can't be lost are talking about God's ability to save. However, this is not the real issue. Those who argue that salvation can be lost are not questioning God's ability to save, they are questioning man's faithfulness. The two passages you posted here say nothing about whether salvation can be lost or not.

Fair enough, but you would have to look deeper into what scripture is telling you. Ephesians 4:30 & 1 Peter 1:4 plainly states that we cannot lose salvation. Not in those exact words, but isn't that what false prophets do, take scriptures and make it their own? What is your interpretation of these two scriptures?

 

[Butch5]

Hi Urk,

I'm not upset. I've just debated this issue many times. I've seen most of the passages used to support it and when they are addressed in context we see that it is not what the Scriptures actually say. We find the idea being inferred from the passages. The passages are approached with the idea that they teach this doctrine and as such people believe they see in there, but it's not. In order to prove that salvation cannot be lost one needs to prove that a believer cannot change his mind. The majority of passages that are presented as proving salvation can't be lost are talking about God's ability to save. However, this is not the real issue. Those who argue that salvation can be lost are not questioning God's ability to save, they are questioning man's faithfulness. The two passages you posted here say nothing about whether salvation can be lost or not.

Fair enough, but you would have to look deeper into what scripture is telling you. Ephesians 4:30 & 1 Peter 1:4 plainly states that we cannot lose salvation. Not in those exact words, but isn't that what false prophets do, take scriptures and make it their own? What is your interpretation of these two scriptures?

Ephesians 4:30 says they were sealed "unto" the day of redemption. The Greek word translated "unto" is "eis". Basically it means towards a goal. It indicates forward motion. In other words they were sealed towards salvation. There is nothing in this passage that would indicate the salvation can't be lost. Like 1 Peter 1:4 speaks of the inheritance, it says it is reserved for them. Nothing in this passage indicates that they will definitely receive that inheritance. If I reserve a table at a restaurant but don't show up I won't receive the table that was reserved for me. Likewise if the Christians doesn't remain faithful he will not receive the inheritance. Notice the next verse,

5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time. (1Pe 1:5 KJV)

He said they are kept through faith. If one does not remain in the faith he will not be kept.

 

[Guest]

Ephesians 4:30 says they were sealed "unto" the day of redemption. The Greek word translated "unto" is "eis". Basically it means towards a goal. It indicates forward motion. In other words they were sealed towards salvation. There is nothing in this passage that would indicate the salvation can't be lost. Like 1 Peter 1:4 speaks of the inheritance, it says it is reserved for them. Nothing in this passage indicates that they will definitely receive that inheritance. If I reserve a table at a restaurant but don't show up I won't receive the table that was reserved for me. Likewise if the Christians doesn't remain faithful he will not receive the inheritance. Notice the next verse,

5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time. (1Pe 1:5 KJV)

He said they are kept through faith. If one does not remain in the faith he will not be kept.

I disagree. If we look at Ephesians 4:30 closer it says, And grieve not the Holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption -- It says grieve not. Grieve not means don't worry. Grieve not what? THE HOLY SPIRIT OF GOD!!! It also says sealed unto the day of redemption. The definition of redemption is deliverance or rescue. What is he rescuing us from? ETERNAL TORMENT IN HELL! Unto doesn't mean goal, rather scripture is stating a fact. The reason he's saying this is because when a christian dies and his heart stops beating, he no longer has to be sealed with the Holy Spirit because he will be literally be living with God after he dies. Salvation can't be lost because we are sealed. The definition of sealed is what it is, the can of soup is sealed shut! Well, what's inside the can of soup? The can itself is your body, the seal on the can is your inheritance in heaven and the vegetables inside is the Holy Spirit dwelling inside your body! When you break the bible down into words and definitions, it makes it that much easier.

It's impossible for faith to cease to exist inside a born again Christian. Faith can diminish or fall away, but God will always bring him back to his will. If you are sealed with the Holy Spirit, it's impossible for the Holy Spirit to leave you. He will never leave you. If a 'christian' walks away from their church or faith, they were never born again to begin with. These people are called apostates or false prophets. 1 Peter 1:4-5 without a doubt proves a born again christian cannot lose faith. The power of God through faith. Yes!! FAITH FAITH FAITH!! You will know them by their fruits, Butch. Do not confuse an apostate with a born again christian, do not make that mistake.

 

[Butch5]

Ephesians 4:30 says they were sealed "unto" the day of redemption. The Greek word translated "unto" is "eis". Basically it means towards a goal. It indicates forward motion. In other words they were sealed towards salvation. There is nothing in this passage that would indicate the salvation can't be lost. Like 1 Peter 1:4 speaks of the inheritance, it says it is reserved for them. Nothing in this passage indicates that they will definitely receive that inheritance. If I reserve a table at a restaurant but don't show up I won't receive the table that was reserved for me. Likewise if the Christians doesn't remain faithful he will not receive the inheritance. Notice the next verse,

5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time. (1Pe 1:5 KJV)

He said they are kept through faith. If one does not remain in the faith he will not be kept.

I disagree. If we look at Ephesians 4:30 closer it says, And grieve not the Holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption -- It says grieve not. Grieve not means don't worry. Grieve not what? THE HOLY SPIRIT OF GOD!!! It also says sealed unto the day of redemption. The definition of redemption is deliverance or rescue. What is he rescuing us from? ETERNAL TORMENT IN HELL! Unto doesn't mean goal, rather scripture is stating a fact. The reason he's saying this is because when a christian dies and his heart stops beating, he no longer has to be sealed with the Holy Spirit because he will be literally be living with God after he dies. Salvation can't be lost because we are sealed. The definition of sealed is what it is, the can of soup is sealed shut! Well, what's inside the can of soup? The can itself is your body, the seal on the can is your inheritance in heaven and the vegetables inside is the Holy Spirit dwelling inside your body! When you break the bible down into words and definitions, it makes it that much easier.

It's impossible for faith to cease to exist inside a born again Christian. Faith can diminish or fall away, but God will always bring him back to his will. If you are sealed with the Holy Spirit, it's impossible for the Holy Spirit to leave you. He will never leave you. If a 'christian' walks away from their church or faith, they were never born again to begin with. These people are called apostates or false prophets. 1 Peter 1:4-5 without a doubt proves a born again christian cannot lose faith. The power of God through faith. Yes!! FAITH FAITH FAITH!! You will know them by their fruits, Butch. Do not confuse an apostate with a born again christian, do not make that mistake.

Hi,

You're free to disagree, however, your arguments here are not logical. You've made a few assumptions also. First of all, what is a seal? Is it something that cannot be broken of is it something intended to be broken? When you buy milk it is sealed, can it be opened? Yes. When you mail an letter it is sealed, can it be opened? Yes. The purpose of a seal is to allow the recipient to know whether or not the contents of something have been tampered with. In Paul's day a seal was placed on a document so that the recipient would know if anyone tampered with the document while it was in transit. Without a seal someone could have altered the document before it reached its recipient, the seal prevented this. However, when the document was sealed there was every intention that the seal would be broken. Our being sealed with the Holy Spirit marks us as belonging to God, it doesn't mean the seal cannot be broken.

Additionally, we are not saved from eternal torment in hell and we don't go to live with God when we die etc. Saying a person who falls away is a logical fallacy, it's not an argument. A person cannot fall from a place they've never been, it's impossible. In order to fall away from the faith one must be in the faith. Additionally, it's not impossible to for faith to cease. Jesus Himself gave an example of faith ceasing.

 

[Mitspa]

First the truth of salvation is not based upon mans logic.
1 Cor 3:18-20
Salvation is based upon receiving the Spirit of God by faith.
And the only biblical way to fall from the Grace of Christ is to seek to be justified by the written code of the law. Gal 5:4

 

[Guest]

You're free to disagree, however, your arguments here are not logical. You've made a few assumptions also. First of all, what is a seal? Is it something that cannot be broken of is it something intended to be broken? When you buy milk it is sealed, can it be opened? Yes. When you mail an letter it is sealed, can it be opened? Yes. The purpose of a seal is to allow the recipient to know whether or not the contents of something have been tampered with. In Paul's day a seal was placed on a document so that the recipient would know if anyone tampered with the document while it was in transit. Without a seal someone could have altered the document before it reached its recipient, the seal prevented this. However, when the document was sealed there was every intention that the seal would be broken. Our being sealed with the Holy Spirit marks us as belonging to God, it doesn't mean the seal cannot be broken.

Yeah but we're not talking about a carton of milk or a half broken envelope. We're talking about God the Father, the Kingdom of God and his promises to us. NOTHING and I mean NOTHING can break his seal!! We are sealed with the blood of Christ. His BLOOD Butch.

 

[Danus]

I have a questions for anyone here. Which comes first; Salvation or the Christian life?

 

[Mitspa]

I would make the point that to walk in the joy of salvation is the "chistian life" To be freely justified by His grace is the strength of all that we do as "Christians"

For sin will not have dominion over you, because you are not under law but under grace. Grace received and walked in is the power to live a godly "christian" life.

 

[Danus]

I would make the point that to walk in the joy of salvation is the "chistian life" To be freely justified by His grace is the strength of all that we do as "Christians"

And I would not argue against that point.

There seem to be two aspects of Christianity that always come up; 1. Salvation, and 2. The Christian life.

These two things seem to be synonymous, and in many ways they are, but in many ways they are not. It depends on the definition being poured into them, and the order in which people understand them. Some people seem to see the Christian life before Salvation, and some see Salvation before the Christian life? I would place myself in the later. I believe that depending on how one views this, ie (Christian life = Salvation, or Salvation = Christian life) is in fact a testament not only to the authenticity of their faith, but to Christ Himself.

 

[Guest]

I have a questions for anyone here. Which comes first; Salvation or the Christian life?

Salvation 1st, Bible 2nd.

 

[ezra]

when we get saved.we begin the christian life

 

[Mitspa]

I would make the point that to walk in the joy of salvation is the "chistian life" To be freely justified by His grace is the strength of all that we do as "Christians"

And I would not argue against that point.

There seem to be two aspects of Christianity that always come up; 1. Salvation, and 2. The Christian life.

These two things seem to be synonymous, and in many ways they are, but in many ways they are not. It depends on the definition being poured into them, and the order in which people understand them. Some people seem to see the Christian life before Salvation, and some see Salvation before the Christian life? I would place myself in the later. I believe that depending on how one views this, ie (Christian life = Salvation, or Salvation = Christian life) is in fact a testament not only to the authenticity of their faith, but to Christ Himself.

I agree.
One could put in this way? We are saved, and then we grow in grace and knowlege of the One who saved us.

 

[Danus]

Salvation 1st, Bible 2nd.

when we get saved.we begin the christian life

We are saved, and then we grow in grace and knowlege of the One who saved us.

This is why our salvation is secure, because it is in Christ. Our faith is in Christ not in our ability to live the Christian life.

We know that if our salvation is based first on the Christian life, we are doomed. Because we can not live the Christian life before we are saved. This is to say, we've no ability to live in any way that merits salvation from God. But, if we thought we could live the Christian Life in order to be saved, and that salvation was some far off goal that we may or may not obtain, then it would be a natural thought to assume we could loose our salvation.

I don't think this is as much of an error as it is a condition. We could say that to work in some way towards Salvation is an error to understanding Salvation and be correct, but telling that to someone who is working to live the Christian Life as a goal to salvation is pointless to that person.

What's the first step in realizing the need for salvation? Realizing we are sinners. Trouble is, not everyone understands the nature of sin and that's why not everyone understands the security of Salvation. To many sin is something they feel they control, and so for them the answer is to just stop sinning. Go and sin no more; live the Christian Life and be saved. That's how they understand the message of Salvation, and they work diligently to do this with of course fear and trembling. You will not convince them otherwise.

Fact is Salvation = The Christian Life. It can't be any other way, but that does not mean that the attempt to live the Christian life, can't, or does not lead to, Salvation.

People who believe that their attempt to live the Christian life will lead them to salvation might be right in many ways as it relates to them. They already admit they are either not saved, don't know, or can't know, and that they hope to be saved. This is because the of the absence yet of being born again, of being regenerated, having a conversion. Who's to say that trying to be "good' does not lead an individual to finally surrender their will to the will of God for them? I think for many it may.

But, the difference between The Christian life = Salvation, and Salvation = the Christian life, is important to point out. It's not a debate that ever needs to go away and we should point it out at every turn, every challenge, with as much grace and humility as possible, if for nothing else to provoke thought.

All we are saying is that we are to BE first, in order to DO second. Salvation = the Christian life. We must BE in order to DO, not do in order to be.

Paul points this out better than anyone. Romans 7:14-20 (NIV)

14 We know that the law is spiritual; but I am unspiritual, sold as a slave to sin.

15 I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do.

16 And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law is good.

17 As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me.

18 For I know that good itself does not dwell in me, that is, in my sinful nature. For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. 19 For I do not do the good I want to do, but the evil I do not want to do—this I keep on doing.

20 Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it.

HE GOES ON TO SAY ....... 23 but I see another law at work in me, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within me. 24 What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body that is subject to death? 25 Thanks be to God, who delivers me through Jesus Christ our Lord!

You can not live the Christian life, until you are saved first. You must be born again, but even then, the Christian life is not something we live, but something that lives in us.

 

[Danus]

Salvation 1st, Bible 2nd.

when we get saved.we begin the christian life

We are saved, and then we grow in grace and knowlege of the One who saved us.

This is why our salvation is secure, because it is in Christ. Our faith is in Christ not in our ability to live the Christian life.

We know that if our salvation is based first on the Christian life, we are doomed. Because we can not live the Christian life before we are saved. This is to say, we've no ability to live in any way that merits salvation from God. But, if we thought we could live the Christian Life in order to be saved, and that salvation was some far off goal that we may or may not obtain, then it would be a natural thought to assume we could loose our salvation.

I don't think this is as much of an error as it is a condition. We could say that to work in some way towards Salvation is an error to understanding Salvation and be correct, but telling that to someone who is working to live the Christian Life as a goal to salvation is pointless to that person.

What's the first step in realizing the need for salvation? Realizing we are sinners. Trouble is, not everyone understands the nature of sin and that's why not everyone understands the security of Salvation. To many sin is something they feel they control, and so for them the answer is to just stop sinning. Go and sin no more; live the Christian Life and be saved. That's how they understand the message of Salvation, and they work diligently to do this with of course fear and trembling. You will not convince them otherwise.

Fact is Salvation = The Christian Life. It can't be any other way, but that does not mean that the attempt to live the Christian life, can't, or does not lead to, Salvation.

People who believe that their attempt to live the Christian life will lead them to salvation might be right in many ways as it relates to them. They already admit they are either not saved, don't know, or can't know, and that they hope to be saved. This is because the of the absence yet of being born again, of being regenerated, having a conversion. Who's to say that trying to be "good' does not lead an individual to finally surrender their will to the will of God for them? I think for many it may.

But, the difference between The Christian life = Salvation, and Salvation = the Christian life, is important to point out. It's not a debate that ever needs to go away and we should point it out at every turn, every challenge, with as much grace and humility as possible, if for nothing else to provoke thought.

All we are saying is that we are to BE first, in order to DO second. Salvation = the Christian life. We must BE in order to DO, not do in order to be.

Paul points this out better than anyone. Romans 7:14-20 (NIV)

14 We know that the law is spiritual; but I am unspiritual, sold as a slave to sin.

15 I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do.

16 And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law is good.

17 As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me.

18 For I know that good itself does not dwell in me, that is, in my sinful nature. For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. 19 For I do not do the good I want to do, but the evil I do not want to do—this I keep on doing.

20 Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it.

HE GOES ON TO SAY ....... 23 but I see another law at work in me, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within me. 24 What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body that is subject to death? 25 Thanks be to God, who delivers me through Jesus Christ our Lord!

You can not live the Christian life, until you are saved first. You must be born again, but even then, the Christian life is not something we live, but something that lives in us.