Once Saved Always Saved (OSAS)!

[Butch5]

Do you not know the story behind Judas?

Yes, I do, however, I am not seeing the point you're making.

Think about it Butch, just make sure to get back to me when it's clicked. Hint, what thread are we in?

I said nothing about Judas and you posted Judas never was saved. Who said he was?

 

[Guest]

Do you not know the story behind Judas?

Yes, I do, however, I am not seeing the point you're making.

Think about it Butch, just make sure to get back to me when it's clicked. Hint, what thread are we in?

I said nothing about Judas and you posted Judas never was saved. Who said he was?

He wasn't saved, but did he not walk among Jesus and his prophets? Scary isn't it?? All I'm saying is once you're saved the fruits of the spirit will never leave you, because the seal of God is until death.

 

[Butch5]

Think about it Butch, just make sure to get back to me when it's clicked. Hint, what thread are we in?

I said nothing about Judas and you posted Judas never was saved. Who said he was?

He wasn't saved, but did he not walk among Jesus and his prophets? Scary isn't it?? All I'm saying is once you're saved the fruits of the spirit will never leave you, because the seal of God is until death.

What does that have to do with Judas, you said he was never saved?

Question: How do you know Judas was never saved?

 

[Guest]

Think about it Butch, just make sure to get back to me when it's clicked. Hint, what thread are we in?

I said nothing about Judas and you posted Judas never was saved. Who said he was?

He wasn't saved, but did he not walk among Jesus and his prophets? Scary isn't it?? All I'm saying is once you're saved the fruits of the spirit will never leave you, because the seal of God is until death.

What does that have to do with Judas, you said he was never saved?

Question: How do you know Judas was never saved?

Answer: The Bible clearly indicates that Judas was not saved. Jesus Himself said of Judas, “The Son of Man will go just as it is written about him. But woe to that man who betrays the Son of Man! It would be better for him if he had not been born†(Matthew 26:24). Here is a clear picture of the sovereignty of God and the will of man working together. God had, from ages past, determined that Christ would be betrayed by Judas, die on the cross for our sins, and be resurrected. This is what Jesus meant when He said He would “go just as it is written about him.â€

Nothing would stop the plan of God to provide salvation for mankind. However, the fact that it was all foreordained does not excuse Judas or absolve him from the punishment he would suffer for his part in the drama. Judas made his own choices, and they were the source of his own damnation. Yet the choices fit perfectly into the sovereign plan of God. God controls not only the good, but also the evil of man to accomplish His own ends. Here we see Jesus condemning Judas, but considering that Judas travelled with Jesus for nearly three years, we know He also gave Judas ample opportunity for salvation and repentance. Even after his dreadful deed, Judas could have fallen on his knees to beg God’s forgiveness. But he did not. He may have felt some remorse born of fear, which caused him to return the money to the Pharisees, but he never repented, preferring instead to commit suicide, the ultimate act of selfishness (Matthew 27:5-8).

In John 17:12, Jesus prays concerning His disciples, “While I was with them, I protected them and kept them safe by that name you gave me. None has been lost except the one doomed to destruction so that Scripture would be fulfilled.†At one time, though, Judas believed that Jesus was a prophet, or possibly even believed He was the Messiah. Jesus sent the disciples out to proclaim the gospel and perform miracles (Luke 9:1-6). Judas was included in this group. Judas had faith, but it was not a true saving faith. Judas was never “saved,†but for a time he was a follower of Christ. http://www.gotquestions.org/Judas-saved.html

 

[childeye]

Actually, When I read about Judas, I don't see a free will at all. If freewill is to be a will that makes moral choices freely as in without any spiritual powers behind the choice, then Judas is not a good example. Nor is Paul who once was Saul.

 

[Butch5]

He wasn't saved, but did he not walk among Jesus and his prophets? Scary isn't it?? All I'm saying is once you're saved the fruits of the spirit will never leave you, because the seal of God is until death.

What does that have to do with Judas, you said he was never saved?

Question: How do you know Judas was never saved?

Answer: The Bible clearly indicates that Judas was not saved. Jesus Himself said of Judas, “The Son of Man will go just as it is written about him. But woe to that man who betrays the Son of Man! It would be better for him if he had not been born” (Matthew 26:24). Here is a clear picture of the sovereignty of God and the will of man working together. God had, from ages past, determined that Christ would be betrayed by Judas, die on the cross for our sins, and be resurrected. This is what Jesus meant when He said He would “go just as it is written about him.”

Nothing would stop the plan of God to provide salvation for mankind. However, the fact that it was all foreordained does not excuse Judas or absolve him from the punishment he would suffer for his part in the drama. Judas made his own choices, and they were the source of his own damnation. Yet the choices fit perfectly into the sovereign plan of God. God controls not only the good, but also the evil of man to accomplish His own ends. Here we see Jesus condemning Judas, but considering that Judas travelled with Jesus for nearly three years, we know He also gave Judas ample opportunity for salvation and repentance. Even after his dreadful deed, Judas could have fallen on his knees to beg God’s forgiveness. But he did not. He may have felt some remorse born of fear, which caused him to return the money to the Pharisees, but he never repented, preferring instead to commit suicide, the ultimate act of selfishness (Matthew 27:5-8).

In John 17:12, Jesus prays concerning His disciples, “While I was with them, I protected them and kept them safe by that name you gave me. None has been lost except the one doomed to destruction so that Scripture would be fulfilled.” At one time, though, Judas believed that Jesus was a prophet, or possibly even believed He was the Messiah. Jesus sent the disciples out to proclaim the gospel and perform miracles (Luke 9:1-6). Judas was included in this group. Judas had faith, but it was not a true saving faith. Judas was never “saved,” but for a time he was a follower of Christ. http://www.gotquestions.org/Judas-saved.html

Got questions? Which fallacy do you want me to point out first? For one the author contradicts himself saying it was the sovereign plan of God and yet Judas had a free will choice. This shows the author cannot reconcile the two doctrines. He also makes an assumption that Judas was never saved, nothing in the text says that, thus his argument is from silence a logical fallacy. He also introduces the "No True Scottsman" fallacy when he says, "Judas had faith, but it was not a true saving faith". Since Judas met the condition of faith the author then changes the requirement to "saving faith" a term found nowhere in Scripture. Likewise the author makes God responsible for Judas' sin when he says it was foreordained. That four errors in reasoning in one answer.

So, I'll ask again, how do you know Judas was never saved?

 

[dadof10]

All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out. John 6:37 ESV (This means, "never under any circumstances will I ever cast you out once you have come to Me.") Once God makes a clear promise, it can never be broken. This offended the self-righteous religious people (as it still does today). We can no more become “unborn†spiritually than we can become unborn physically.

If we are faithless, he remains faithful, for he cannot disown himself. 2 Timothy 2:13

These verses emphasizes the Divine side of salvation.

What about if we "cast out" ourselves? I don't know of any verses that say it's impossible for a saved person to REJECT CHRIST. Christ is ever faithful, we are not.

 

[Guest]

Got questions? Which fallacy do you want me to point out first? For one the author contradicts himself saying it was the sovereign plan of God and yet Judas had a free will choice. This shows the author cannot reconcile the two doctrines. He also makes an assumption that Judas was never saved, nothing in the text says that, thus his argument is from silence a logical fallacy. He also introduces the "No True Scottsman" fallacy when he says, "Judas had faith, but it was not a true saving faith". Since Judas met the condition of faith the author then changes the requirement to "saving faith" a term found nowhere in Scripture. Likewise the author makes God responsible for Judas' sin when he says it was foreordained. That four errors in reasoning in one answer.

So, I'll ask again, how do you know Judas was never saved?

God knows what you're going to say and do tomorrow my friend. No he didn't change the requirement, do you know what true saving faith is? We can go back and forth all day, but at the end of the day the blood of Christ is permanant. Are you washed in the blood of Jesus, Butch? What is your belief in who Jesus Christ is?

 

[Guest]

Judas had faith, but it was not a true saving faith". Since Judas met the condition of faith the author then changes the requirement to "saving faith" a term found nowhere in Scripture.

Judas met the condition of faith, but then he goes and kills himself?

 

[Butch5]

Judas had faith, but it was not a true saving faith". Since Judas met the condition of faith the author then changes the requirement to "saving faith" a term found nowhere in Scripture.

Judas met the condition of faith, but then he goes and kills himself?

I'm just repeating what your answer said. This is from what you posted

Judas had faith, but it was not a true saving faith.

 

[Butch5]

Got questions? Which fallacy do you want me to point out first? For one the author contradicts himself saying it was the sovereign plan of God and yet Judas had a free will choice. This shows the author cannot reconcile the two doctrines. He also makes an assumption that Judas was never saved, nothing in the text says that, thus his argument is from silence a logical fallacy. He also introduces the "No True Scottsman" fallacy when he says, "Judas had faith, but it was not a true saving faith". Since Judas met the condition of faith the author then changes the requirement to "saving faith" a term found nowhere in Scripture. Likewise the author makes God responsible for Judas' sin when he says it was foreordained. That four errors in reasoning in one answer.

So, I'll ask again, how do you know Judas was never saved?

God knows what you're going to say and do tomorrow my friend. No he didn't change the requirement, do you know what true saving faith is? We can go back and forth all day, but at the end of the day the blood of Christ is permanant. Are you washed in the blood of Jesus, Butch? What is your belief in who Jesus Christ is?

Your questions have nothing to do with the argument. All you guys need to do is to present an argument from Scripture. The problem is that there is none. There is not a single passage of Scripture that says salvation can't be lost. On the other hand there are passages that say it can be lost. Hmmm.

 

[Butch5]

All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out. John 6:37 ESV (This means, "never under any circumstances will I ever cast you out once you have come to Me.") Once God makes a clear promise, it can never be broken. This offended the self-righteous religious people (as it still does today). We can no more become “unborn” spiritually than we can become unborn physically.

If we are faithless, he remains faithful, for he cannot disown himself. 2 Timothy 2:13

These verses emphasizes the Divine side of salvation.

What about if we "cast out" ourselves? I don't know of any verses that say it's impossible for a saved person to REJECT CHRIST. Christ is ever faithful, we are not.

That's the heart of the issue that I have tried top point out numerous times on forum. The OSAS side wants to post passages about God's ability to save and that is not the issue. The issue as you've pointed out is whether or not man will remain faithful.

 

[Guest]

Your questions have nothing to do with the argument. All you guys need to do is to present an argument from Scripture. The problem is that there is none. There is not a single passage of Scripture that says salvation can't be lost. On the other hand there are passages that say it can be lost. Hmmm.

You're questioning God's ability to save?????? Are you serious?? God's ability to save IS THE ISSUE! What is your belief in who Jesus Christ is?? Butch Butch Butch. There is plenty of scripture, should we start with the whole book of Ephesians first. Strawman ?

 

[Deborah13]

Is that a western Meadowlark as your avatar?

I believe so, I haven't looked him up to see if he's the same as on the plains. We're in the Rockies. 7,200 ft.

 

[WIP]

Let's not make this discussion too personal.

 

[dadof10]

All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out. John 6:37 ESV (This means, "never under any circumstances will I ever cast you out once you have come to Me.") Once God makes a clear promise, it can never be broken. This offended the self-righteous religious people (as it still does today). We can no more become “unborn” spiritually than we can become unborn physically.

If we are faithless, he remains faithful, for he cannot disown himself. 2 Timothy 2:13

These verses emphasizes the Divine side of salvation.

What about if we "cast out" ourselves? I don't know of any verses that say it's impossible for a saved person to REJECT CHRIST. Christ is ever faithful, we are not.

That's the heart of the issue that I have tried top point out numerous times on forum. The OSAS side wants to post passages about God's ability to save and that is not the issue. The issue as you've pointed out is whether or not man will remain faithful.

...And if he doesn't, and can lose his salvation, sola-fide is naturally dead. OSAS doesn't square with "shown to be righteous". If a man can be "shown to be righteous", if that's what James means, then OSAS can't be true, unless EVERY person who has proved himself to be righteous, has persevered to the end. I know a few people who have shown themselves to be righteous and have fallen away, I'm sure you do too. It's, unfortunately, not rare.

 

[iLOVE]

All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out. John 6:37 ESV (This means, "never under any circumstances will I ever cast you out once you have come to Me.") Once God makes a clear promise, it can never be broken. This offended the self-righteous religious people (as it still does today). We can no more become “unborn” spiritually than we can become unborn physically.

If we are faithless, he remains faithful, for he cannot disown himself. 2 Timothy 2:13
P
These verses emphasizes the Divine side of salvation.

What about if we "cast out" ourselves? I don't know of any verses that say it's impossible for a saved person to REJECT CHRIST. Christ is ever faithful, we are not.

Did Peter, Thomas, James and Jesus cousin John The Baptist cast themselves out? Did they lose there salvation? No! There are many many more I could name.

Where sin abounded, grace abounded much more. Romans 5:20

 

[mondar]

...And if he doesn't, and can lose his salvation, sola-fide is naturally dead.

dadof10... very perceptive. I would agree that if a man can loose his salvation, sola fide is a myth. If a man can loose his salvation, there is an element of works in salvation. I would say the same thing of the concept of "free will." If our will cooperates with Gods will there is an element of merit in salvation. We have at least in some small part earned our salvation. I know you cannot answer for protestants, but protestants who affirm that man can loose his own salvation, and protestants who affirm certain free will doctrines, why do not see the same thing? The Arminian gospel is actually far closer to the gospel of Rome than that the gospel of the Reformers. Again, I am asking the wrong person, but how can one accept a sola fide gospel, and yet also affirm that one can loose his salvation? Interesting!

OSAS doesn't square with "shown to be righteous". If a man can be "shown to be righteous", if that's what James means, then OSAS can't be true, unless EVERY person who has proved himself to be righteous, has persevered to the end. I know a few people who have shown themselves to be righteous and have fallen away, I'm sure you do too. It's, unfortunately, not rare.

 

[Guest]

We have at least in some small part earned our salvation.

Salvation is not earned, it's a gift from God the Father. Salvation is a one time occurrence. Christianity is not a concentration camp and Jesus is not Hitler.

 

[dadof10]

All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out. John 6:37 ESV (This means, "never under any circumstances will I ever cast you out once you have come to Me.") Once God makes a clear promise, it can never be broken. This offended the self-righteous religious people (as it still does today). We can no more become “unborn” spiritually than we can become unborn physically.

If we are faithless, he remains faithful, for he cannot disown himself. 2 Timothy 2:13
P
These verses emphasizes the Divine side of salvation.

What about if we "cast out" ourselves? I don't know of any verses that say it's impossible for a saved person to REJECT CHRIST. Christ is ever faithful, we are not.

Did Peter, Thomas, James and Jesus cousin John The Baptist cast themselves out?
Did they lose there salvation? No! There are many many more I could name.

Where sin abounded, grace abounded much more. Romans 5:20

Is your position that a doctrine is true only if there is a human example within Scripture?

If so, Abraham was justified three times. Isn't that an example of justification being a process, not a one time event?