Vasectomy & Tubectomy - God's Judgment

[Destructus86]

Not to be too harsh, but what's wrong with not having sex if you don't want to have children?

I wonder if subduing the sex drive is more spiritual than removing the consequences of sex(?)

God created us with a sex drive.

Sex is a gift from God and is somethign to be enjoyed and embraced between two married couples.

 

[Mountain Man]

Many view pleasure as something to be atoned for,there must be a consequence or penalty....to have it and walk away for some is cheating.

 

[Grappler]

How does God judge believers on these two choices.
If a believer had these surgeries, how does God judge these surgeries.
I just don't wanna dishonor the body of Christ, of not knowing what he thinks first.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vasectomy / http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tubectomy

Have you ever considered making yourself a eunuch for the Kingdom of God? Matthew 19:12 "For there are eunuchs who have been so from birth, and there are eunuchs who have been made eunuchs by men, and there are eunuchs who have made themselves eunuchs for the sake of the kingdom of heaven. Let the one who is able to receive this receive it.†So urk if you want to go as far as castration its ok.

 

[Guest]

[MENTION=95193]Grappler[/MENTION] not a eunuch, just no kids. blessings.

 

[Mountain Man]

Many view pleasure as something to be atoned for,there must be a consequence or penalty....to have it and walk away for some is cheating.

Interesting thought. Umm, if it were not pleasurable, would we even do it? Personally, I think not.

I have conjectured to myself before that perhaps, child birth may have been pleasurable also for women, but after the fall, in sorrow shalt thou bring forth children. That is a minor conjecture and perhaps not correct or even meaningful at all.

Some people just don't want kids and it is better that they don't have them,no reason to judge them or make assumptions and one man/woman's blessing is another man/woman's curse,there is no specific command to have children or want children.those who have them are no better than those who don't and it is a personal decision between a married couple and nobody else's business....our problem today seems to be keeping them alive after conception.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Not to be too harsh, but what's wrong with not having sex if you don't want to have children?

Well, I understand your point and it certainly is a good one and valid, however, I don't think many wives would be happy to not have sex and come together. Scripture does tell us to not deny our spouse this, so there's that. Only by agreement can this be done with the wife.

A wife may agree to it for a time, but I'm not sure if any could agree to it for an extended period of time. Drives are strong and to deny her could drive her out the door.

Which is illustrating my point. If you get married you are obligated to have sex. And no matter how sure we are science has saved us, the risk of having kids comes with having sex. The only real answer is to not get married.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

what's wrong with not having sex if you don't want to have children

Assuming a person has normal bodily functions and drives, unnecessarily denying yourself and your spouse a God given pleasure would be what's wrong with it, at least at first thoughts.

My point was, don't get married.

God built having children into sex. Man is the one who is determined to divide the two in the name of pleasure without responsibility.

I'm suggesting the truly 'spiritual' answer for absolutely not wanting kids is to not get married in the first place. That to me is a spiritually responsible answer. Any answer short of that HAS to accept the responsibility for making a child. HAS to.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I for sure plan to have one after our first. We only want one. To me it's being a responsible person. We know we couldn't handle more than 1 kid, so we want to be responsible and make sure we just have the one.

It's called biology. It's like saying "Ok God, I am going to let go of this steering wheel and let you drive me to work." What happens next? You CRASH. Why? Because YOU were responsible for your actions in driving the car because God created gravity.

Same with children...if you have a ton of kids it's not because God willed it. (though sometimes that's true) It's because that's how He created biology to function

I'm suggesting that letting go of the steering wheel of sexual restraint is what's potentially wrong. Just because you're sure you won't be making babies doesn't automatically make unhindered sexual fulfillment right.

I question the wisdom of not restraining sexual desire. God built that restraint into marriage. As responsible as it is to know and abide by your limitations when it comes to child rearing, I think not getting married is a responsible, realistic, spiritual answer, too, just as only having sex when the chance of child bearing is the lowest is, and is perhaps the better one if you absolutely do not want to have kids.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Not to be too harsh, but what's wrong with not having sex if you don't want to have children?

I wonder if subduing the sex drive is more spiritual than removing the consequences of sex(?)

God created us with a sex drive.

Sex is a gift from God and is somethign to be enjoyed and embraced between two married couples.

Between two married couples? Prolly not, lol, but I know what you meant.

It is to be enjoyed and embraced...but so is the potential to have a child as a result. If one absolutely doesn't want to risk that chance they should not get married. That's a very spiritual answer to me. I'm suggesting that's a more spiritual answer than the spiritual responsibility for knowing, and abiding in, your own tolerance for children.

 

[Obadiah]

what's wrong with not having sex if you don't want to have children

Assuming a person has normal bodily functions and drives, unnecessarily denying yourself and your spouse a God given pleasure would be what's wrong with it, at least at first thoughts.

My point was, don't get married.

God built having children into sex. Man is the one who is determined to divide the two in the name of pleasure without responsibility.

I'm suggesting the truly 'spiritual' answer for absolutely not wanting kids is to not get married in the first place. That to me is a spiritually responsible answer. Any answer short of that HAS to accept the responsibility for making a child. HAS to.

I guess I just don't view it the same way you do unless you can cite some scripture that supports this. I just don't see the only reason for marriage being to produce kids and I certainly don't see separating sex for pleasure from sex to produce kids as irresponsible. In fact, just the opposite. I see it as very responsible to make the choice not to bring kids into a situation where they aren't wanted or aren't affordable or whatever other reasons. As for marriage itself, God intended a man and woman to work together for many reasons and even said a man's wife is to be a "helpmeet" to him. That means a lot of things beyond just producing kids. So I can't agree that simply the choice not to have kids is a good scriptural reason to avoid marriage altogether. And once we are married, we are instructed not to deny our spouses of their sexual fulfillment, and I also don't know of any scripture saying it is a proper and spiritual choice to deny ourselves this pleasure either (within the framework God has given us. It's NOT my intention to promote sin in this forum.)

As for sex producing kids, sure God made it so that it can, but just because God made something possible doesn't mean it is a command to actually do it. He also provided ways to avoid pregnancy while having sex if we choose to, and as far as I know never said using those ways was sinful. Even in Biblical times most people understood how women got pregnant enough to also know how to have sex while avoiding pregnancy. If this was sinful, why wouldn't God have told us so in the scriptures? I know of no other way to determine what is sin in God's eyes other then for Him to have told us it is. We can not speak for God with our own ideas.

If this remaining single and not having sex is a personal choice for you, as with Paul, that's fine. I have no problem with that and commend you if this is the choice you have made in your relationship to God and you are able to live this way. But short of any scripture commanding this, I think it's not really proper to suggest others have to make this same choice just because you have, or to imply that others are less spiritual or wrong in some way if they don't do this. At least that's just the way I see it. If I'm misunderstanding you, or if I'm wrong, please show me from scripture and forgive me for my mistake.

 

[Sparkey]

As for sex producing kids, sure God made it so that it can, but just because God made something possible doesn't mean it is a command to actually do it.

That is correct. No blessing is forced down the throat of the unwilling. That, simply stated, is not His way. Our God, the creator of all the universe has asked, "Will I not receive you graciously?"

He will.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

what's wrong with not having sex if you don't want to have children

Assuming a person has normal bodily functions and drives, unnecessarily denying yourself and your spouse a God given pleasure would be what's wrong with it, at least at first thoughts.

My point was, don't get married.

God built having children into sex. Man is the one who is determined to divide the two in the name of pleasure without responsibility.

I'm suggesting the truly 'spiritual' answer for absolutely not wanting kids is to not get married in the first place. That to me is a spiritually responsible answer. Any answer short of that HAS to accept the responsibility for making a child. HAS to.

I guess I just don't view it the same way you do unless you can cite some scripture that supports this. I just don't see the only reason for marriage being to produce kids...

That's not the point, and I'm not in disagreement with you about that, but if I wanted to argue the point I could use this:

"15 Has not the one God made you? You belong to him in body and spirit. And what does the one God seek? Godly offspring." (Malachi 2:15 NIV)


Not wanting or having offspring is largely a modern concept, not an ancient one. My fundamental point is, if you want to live in that modern concept don't get married. It is truly the MOST responsible answer to not wanting kids since childbearing is so fundamentally tied to having sex. It's only in this modern age that we think that they are somehow two separate things (having sex, and having kids).

...and I certainly don't see separating sex for pleasure from sex to produce kids as irresponsible.

My point is it's irresponsible to think it can truly be done. Vasectomy is NOT fool proof. You're kidding yourself and taking a less responsible, and therefore, less spiritual, avenue in regard to not wanting to bring children into the world by relying on vasectomy to not have children. If you have a vasectomy you still HAVE to be prepared to raise a child.

And if you want to talk about what is spiritual, it's probably more spiritual to restrain a desire of the body than it is to find a way to entertain it responsibly and without hindrance. Notice I said 'more' spiritual. I did not say it's unspiritual to find ways to safely and responsibly fulfill bodily desires. I brought it up because urk was saying vasectomy was a good spiritual thing to do. I suggest not getting married is even more spiritual than that...since he brought up the desire to be spiritual.

I see it as very responsible to make the choice not to bring kids into a situation where they aren't wanted or aren't affordable or whatever other reasons.

I'm not saying it's irresponsible. I'm saying that responsibility--the exact one we're talking about here, being married, having sex, but with a vasectomy--MUST include the possibility that it WILL result in pregnancy. THAT is the responsibility that must be associated with a vasectomy. If you play lotto and really think you may win then think how incredibly unreasonable it is to play the much better odds of a failed vasectomy when you don't want kids. Think about it.

As for marriage itself, God intended a man and woman to work together for many reasons and even said a man's wife is to be a "helpmeet" to him. That means a lot of things beyond just producing kids. So I can't agree that simply the choice not to have kids is a good scriptural reason to avoid marriage altogether.

Hope you don't miss my point. The choice to not have kids by having a vasectomy MUST include the chance that you will. That's responsible.

And once we are married, we are instructed not to deny our spouses of their sexual fulfillment...

Absolutely correct. Which makes my point all the more valid. Once you're married you HAVE to have sex (unless there is mutual agreement not to, ever, as if that ever happens).

...and I also don't know of any scripture saying it is a proper and spiritual choice to deny ourselves this pleasure either...

In marriage? Right, it doesn't. But before marriage, it does say it's better to forego marriage:

"8 But I say to the unmarried and to widows that it is good for them if they remain even as I." (1 Corinthians 7: NASB)

As for sex producing kids, sure God made it so that it can, but just because God made something possible doesn't mean it is a command to actually do it.

I'm not in disagreement with this at all. IMO, there's nothing sinful about only having sex when it's least likely to result in pregnancy. What would be wrong is thinking vasectomy creates that situation...AND...maybe more importantly...I don't think, generally speaking, it's wise to create a situation where God's natural restraint on sexual desire is removed. But each man has to know what he can and can't handle. Unfortunately, you may not know until you are in that situation.

If this remaining single and not having sex is a personal choice for you, as with Paul, that's fine. I have no problem with that and commend you if this is the choice you have made in your relationship to God and you are able to live this way.

I'm married. The OP is about a single person who wants to get married and, obviously, have sex, but doesn't want to have kids. I'm sharing my insights as, both, a married man, and a man who has had a vasectomy. Neither marriage, nor vasectomy, holds the promise of fulfillment many people think they do. The best thing to do is go into either, or both, educated and realistic.

But short of any scripture commanding this, I think it's not really proper to suggest others have to make this same choice just because you have, or to imply that others are less spiritual or wrong in some way if they don't do this.

Hopefully now you can see I'm NOT doing that, but only sharing a little experience in marriage, vasectomy, and the Word of God so that others can make educated, responsible, and REALISTIC choices in these matters.

At least that's just the way I see it. If I'm misunderstanding you, or if I'm wrong, please show me from scripture and forgive me for my mistake.

Gotcha

 

[Obadiah]

Ok, so it seems your main point is that if a pregnancy does occur, we should be ready for that. I completely agree with that. Especially since the only alternative of choice then would be an abortion, and I find it hard indeed to justify that!

But I still find it hard to understand your worry over this happening, considering the overwhelming difference in the odds of a pregnancy occurring after a proper vasectomy as opposed to before having one. It almost seems like you make lite of that difference as if it wasn't very significant. If you just do nothing to prevent pregnancy, both husband and wife are physically able to produce children, and you have a normal sex life, obviously chances are pretty close to 100% that eventually you will have a child, and this is supported by statistics. If you have a vasectomy performed by a descent doctor and follow the instructions, which include not assuming it's effective until you have your sperm count tested a few months later to confirm the vasectomy was effective, now the odds are pretty close to 0 of a pregnancy. (Also confirmed by statistics.) Realistic odds in this case are less than 1/2 of 1% of producing a pregnancy, and that's a huge difference from almost 100%! If a man's wife still becomes pregnant after this (and the sterilized husband truly IS the father), then yeah, they better consider this kid a miracle from God almost at the same level as the virgin birth of Jesus and treat it as such! (Ok, yeah, a little hyperbole there about the virgin birth, but you get my point.) Most of the pregnancies reported where the male was the father (woman was monogamous, DNA test proved it) and he had a vasectomy before conception were the result of the male not following the doctors instructions of having regular sex with other prevention in place (to flush out remaining sperm), then after 3 months having his sperm count tested to confirm the vasectomy was indeed effective. Those that follow these instructions have an almost 0% chance of impregnating a female in the future.

So while statistically there may be an extremely miniscule chance that a pregnancy can occur after a proper vasectomy (including tests to verify effectiveness), it's so rare that it seems it's just not worth worrying about. But, like you said, a couple has to still be prepared to accept it if such a miracle should happen to them.

 

[Sparkey]

Has any considered the likely effect of putting all our efforts toward the goal?

Vasectomy and Tubal Ligation would only be a starting point. From there the lady would also be on the pill and have the "morning-after-pill" stocked and ready to go. During intercourse male and females would both take precautions. Rubbers and "dental damns" (female condoms?) would be used. Spermicide and IUD as well as "caps" might be employed as well as the often attempted "pull out" before the train arrives at the station. Vaginal temperatures and PH testing could be incorporated as well as the consulting of calendars and the counting of days. Showers and douches could be use immediately after coitus and in the 5 to 7 days that follow. The couple could pray for male impotence too.

Then research and consultation could be included to assist in the planning and development of proper relations that the married couple would consider for further inclusion into their regime and routine. There must be something that I'm forgetting... [pause a moment for the brain to catch up with the fingers]. Oh, that's right. Abstinence, but only for a short period of time and not designed to defraud the partner from their marital bliss and peaceful enjoyment of the harmony gained thereby. Oh! And prayer too. Before, during and after. Let's see... another stretch brings us to:

In the ancient medical manuscript the Ebers Papyrus (1550 BCE), women were advised to grind dates, acacia tree bark, and honey together into a paste, apply this mixture to seed wool, and insert the seed wool vaginally for use as a pessary. Granted, it was what was in the cotton rather than the cotton itself that promoted its effectiveness as birth control—acacia ferments into lactic acid, a well-known spermicide—but the seed wool did serve as a physical barrier between ejaculate and cervix. Interestingly, though, women during the times of American slavery would chew on the bark of cotton root to prevent pregnancy. Cotton root bark contains substances that interfere with the corpus luteum, which is the hole left in the ovary when ovulation occurs. The corpus luteum secretes progesterone to prepare the uterus for implantation of a fertilized egg.

read more at: http://listverse.com/2010/11/14/10-ancient-methods-of-birth-control/
I especially liked the use of Lemons suggested there. I personally would advise against the drinking of Mercury but the article says it was "effective".

Note: This post is made for comedic effect and not to be taken as a stance against choice that is given by God to each and every one of us. He is gracious! That's the simple truth of it. Best advice? Pray and follow what the Lord speaks into your heart. Nothing better may I think than this.

 

[Obadiah]

Has any considered the likely effect of putting all our efforts toward the goal? Vasectomy and Tubal Ligation would only be a starting point. From there the lady would also be on the pill and have the "morning-after-pill" stocked and ready to go. During intercourse male and females would both take precautions. Rubbers and "dental damns" (female condoms?) would be used. Spermicide and IUD as well as "caps" might be employed as well as the often attempted "pull out" before the train arrives at the station. Vaginal temperatures and PH testing could be incorporated as well as the consulting of calendars and the counting of days. Showers and douches could be use immediately after coitus and in the 5 to 7 days that follow. Then research and consultation could be included to assist in the planning and development of proper relations that the married couple would consider for further inclusion into their regime and routine. There must be something that I'm forgetting... [pause a moment for the brain to catch up with the fingers]. Oh, that's right. Abstinence, but only for a short period of time and not designed to defraud the partner from their marital bliss and peaceful enjoyment of the harmony gained thereby. Oh! And prayer too. Before, during and after.

LOL. Hold on while I go to find statistics for the effectiveness of this combination. I'll report back when I find it. :-D

 

[Sparkey]

LOL. Hold on while I go to find statistics for the effectiveness of this combination. I'll report back when I find it. :-D

Not including 'miracle' where God pronounces a direct intervention, like what he has done with 99 year old people and others, my thought is that this will be effective. Quick guess? 1 out of 9.7 raised to the negative power of 23 or something like that.

Hmmmm.... one chance out of this fraction of a chance: 1/9,700,000,000,000,000,000,000,000th. But that's just a quick guess. I wonder what the statistics say about statistics made up on the spot like this are and their chance of being correct? Pretty good, right?

 

[Guest]

I'm suggesting the truly 'spiritual' answer for absolutely not wanting kids is to not get married in the first place. That to me is a spiritually responsible answer. Any answer short of that HAS to accept the responsibility for making a child. HAS to.

HAS to? Not getting married to avoid kids is an option, but there is another option, option#2. The man that doesn't want kids meets a woman who doesn't want kids, and then they get married. After they get married, they both decide as a couple to get a vasectomy and tubectomy. Is option 2 not spiritual?

 

[Guest]

I told my parents last night that I was thinking of getting a vasectomy. Even though they were upset, I told them I REFUSE to have children to make THEM happy. My dad said it's against God's will to not have children. My mom doesn't even wanna talk about it. I told them, would you be happier if I had a child out of wedlock in my past fornication? I guess it doesn't matter to parents as long as their happy being grandparents. Such BS.

 

[George Muller]

I told my parents last night that I was thinking of getting a vasectomy. Even though they were upset, I told them I REFUSE to have children to make THEM happy. My dad said it's against God's will to not have children. My mom doesn't even wanna talk about it. I told them, would you be happier if I had a child out of wedlock in my past fornication? I guess it doesn't matter to parents as long as their happy being grandparents. Such BS.

What does your wife think? If you have no wife? Then what need is there to have this thing done?
It does not sound as if the parents are the issue?
If you are having problems with lust? pray and God will send you wisdom, but getting a vasectomy does not solve the issue.

 

[divinecloud7]

"What's wrong with a big healthy family?" When I was a kid there was an awesome family that lived by me. They were devout and lived as one would of the Christian lifestyle. They didn't use contraception and as a result had a really large family. Never heard anything wrong about them and they seemed stable and friendly if not quiet. They were poor too which is natural and healthy if managed properly, but that is why GOD the heavenly father tells us to put trust in him, not in wealth and riches.

I wish I would of grew up directly with a larger sibling base. I know there would of been difficulties; however in the end look at how many innate friends you would have.....unless you fell into discord which I do not wish upon anyone.

I look at my lil companion and buddy. My dog whom I wish had a friend and at one time considered it, but because of finances the option was disregarded. Well now I see how unfortunate the dog is as her only direct friend is shelter and a cat which they go both their own ways. I have seen the effects socialization have on animals and people and it's always the same.


Praise be to GOD the heavenly father and his son lord JESUS CHRIST forever>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>