The point is that JESUS knew this. Not the followers
So from this scripture and by what you say, "they thought they were following", doesn't that say they were "
never saved"?
First, thanks for your response, this is the sort of conversation I had hoped to have when I returned to this board...
Generally speaking, a follower of Christ was saved, correct? By definition, a follower does the will of the leader, following the leader's teachings and expectations.
Jesus tells the apostles to teach EVERYTHING that He had taught. A good part of that is the idea that one must persevere and continue in belief. Jesus gives a number of examples/parables of how people can falter and fall away, in other words, STOP following the Christ. Disciples of Jesus stopped following Him. Thus, this is a
lesson for us today.
Now, the Spirit of God. That does change things literally. We could open another thread on how the role of the Spirit "changed" with the beginning of the end times, the revelation of the Messiah and His death/resurrection. I would say that the Spirit's role is more manifest - He is applied more liberally. But He ALWAYS was active, in a hidden manner. "He has spoken through the prophets", He inspired the writers of Scriptures, and we understand that THROUGH Him, men and women were able to obey the Law, even if imperfectly.
But does the Spirit of God absolutely prevent the ONE TIME follower of Christ to not fall away? Is His role now to prevent Christians from falling away? Why would Paul warn saved Christians to beware that they are not cut off from the olive tree and discarded, as unbelieving Jews were? This would ignore numerous passages on perseverance, remaining in Christ, do not let your faith be shipwrecked, do not be overconfident, beware of the prowling satan, etc... NONE of these and many others make sense if the LESSON Jesus was preaching could still not be applied and taken to heart today.
Jesus was not teaching all of those parables about the contents of the Kingdom, the sower, etc. for people of only up to the cross! There would be no reason for the writers of Scripture to relate these teachings IF they had no more use for people of the end times.
Jesus had died yet and the Holy Spirit had not been given either. They were not sealed by the Holy Spirit, either.
To seal something means to show ownership. It does not mean that the sealed item cannot be destroyed or compromised. To have the seal of the king on something meant it was owned by the King and his words were contained within. I think people go too far in defining "being sealed" means. It means we are now God's children - with all of the rights of adoption. As you know, people can disinherit themselves WHILE STILL being "legally" considered children of the parent(s)
This is what I wonder. Could Israel either as a nation or individually, get out of the covenant they had entered into with God?
Yes. Of course. Covenantal Nominism is something offered freely by God - but to REMAIN WITHIN it requires obedience to the Law. We are in a NEW Covenant, and the same basic idea applies. We (as Gentiles) are freely allowed into the People of God, once formerly reserved for Jews. To remain within it requires the obedience to the Father's Will. That hasn't changed. What has changed is the extent of Who can become part of the Covenant AS WELL AS the giving of the Holy Spirit, Who enables us to obey the Law of the Covenant Giver, Jesus Christ (yes, He did leave us a commandment!)
Paul states that those who do not believe will be removed from the "Tree of Life", the branches cut off the tree, and will be discarded. Unbelievers have no part of Jesus Christ's life giving waters.
Can a new covenant believer who by their own free will has entered into a covenant with Jesus get out of that covenant? Is part of that covenant Your will not mine. That we now belong to Him. Should the prudent man have known what he was getting into?
I am not sure what you are asking here. I think your reference to the prudent man is worthy of consideration. As a follower of Christ, we are told to "die to self". Do not turn back to the past life (of sin). Know what we are getting into, yes, that makes sense. But can't such a man later decide, "this is not for me"? Can we be like the wife of Lot, who turned back? Of the one who took their hand from the plow and turned back? We don't become baptized with full knowledge of what lies ahead. Surely, you have seen people who later fall out of faith. We don't know anyone's final destination, but is there saving faith when someone turns back to the vomit (which of course suggests that they were once free of the vomit?)
God uses a lot of legal terms in His system. Can we just walk out on the covenant of grace without the Lord using His authority over us? Like putting on the pressure for us to fulfill our part of the covenant? Our part is to rest in Him by having faith that Jesus is our redeemer and all good things come through Him.
Well, we do not know the extent of how God "applies pressure to us" already and at what point a "tipping point" is achieved, and the "wrath of God" ensues - LETTING people go on with their own designs (as in the end of Romans 1). We DO know that as long as we turn to Christ, we will not be abandoned. No matter what we have done, returning to Him means forgiveness and a spot at the table within the Kingdom. So yes, I agree with your last sentence. That is OUR part, with the help of grace from God.
Did we give Him that authority in our lives just like the Hebrew children did?
Good question. Do we? I think for MANY, including myself, I don't fully do that. There are still parts of my life where He is not King and Lord...
Lord I want you in my life, I want to be your child, I accept you as my Father.......Father have authority in their children lives.
What are your thoughts?
My thoughts are I am happy to discuss such things without being chided or someone talking about my "sect"... I am happy to share my thoughts and hear yours, for I am looking to learn more about my relationship with Christ.
Regards
