Freewill religion ! - Part 2

[About the Son of God]

Re: Freewill religion is the Man of Sin ! - Part 2

Those of us who testify that one is saved from their sins because of their freewill is a boaster who glories in themselves, they pretend to glory in God, but they are pretenders and glory in themselves.

Says you.
For, those who believe in free will -- believe that everyone has free will.
Free will is not something special that anyone would boast about it's exercise as if it were special in the order of salvation.
Nor does choosing (will) equal earning (merit).

A thief in a market can choose a product from a store shelf -- but that doesn't make it theirs for the taking.

They deny the Sovereignty of God in Salvation by His Electing Grace, and the Sovereign working of the Spirit in a person which is what causes one to differ.

On what ground do you make such a ridiculous charge?

There is no middle ground here, for either the Sovereign Grace of the Spirit causes one to differ or man's freewill; Those of us who say freewill of man, then we are proud boasters, look what I have done !586

Nonsense.

 

[savedbygrace57]

Re: Freewill religion is the Man of Sin ! - Part 2

absog

For, those who believe in free will -- believe that everyone has free
will.

Scripture does not teach that. Provide one scripture that says everyone has freewill.

Nor does choosing (will) equal earning (merit).

Yes it does when you say that it detrdeterminedther you are saved or lost. Choosing was something the person did, an act of theirs, so it by definition becomes a work. You can deny it all you want.

 

[About the Son of God]

Re: Freewill religion is the Man of Sin ! - Part 2

Scripture does not teach that. Provide one scripture that says everyone has freewill.

To each of us, God gives the choice -- although he always commands us to do the good; none the less, he sets before us both good and evil. He does not predestine one alone, but gives both -- and allows a partial choice.

Deuteronomy 30:19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:

To this very day, God acts the same.

Hebrews 4:7 Again, he limiteth a certain day, saying in David, To day, after so long a time; as it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts.

When it is God who hardens a man's heart, alone, we do not find the scriptures condemning the man; but when we find the man has hardened his own heart in addition to God's doing -- then the scriptures will find that man condemned by God.
Guilt is lessened when a man's power and choices are dictated by God. Scripture teaches this clearly.

Yes it does when you say that it detrdeterminedther you are saved or lost. Choosing was something the person did, an act of theirs, so it by definition becomes a work. You can deny it all you want.

I don't deny that choosing is a work; for as I pointed out in an earlier post -- "faith" is something you do;
"belief"; therefore, as it says in John 6:28, is a "work" (singular).
You * must * do a work (believe) to be saved. The work is called "Believe" !

But: Your error is that you are confounding "earning" with "working" and they aren't the same thing.

If I offer you a car, on the condition that you come get the key -- do you seriously think you could boast that picking up the key "earned" the car? Such an attitude would surely earn you mockery from the general public, and cause me to revoke the gift.

Yet -- you're planning on using exactly the same folly to claim that "free will" earns salvation !?

Each of us is to WORK out our salvation in fear and trembling; in the awe of the sovereignty of God.
Philippians 2:10-13

 

[savedbygrace57]

Re: Freewill religion is the Man of Sin ! - Part 2

absog

To each of us, God gives the choice

I am still waiting on the scripture that says this as you stated:

For, those who believe in free will -- believe that everyone has free

[edited]

will.

 

[savedbygrace57]

Re: Freewill religion is the Man of Sin ! - Part 2

absog

If I offer you a car, on the condition that you come get the key -- do you
seriously think you could boast that picking up the key "earned" the car? Such
an attitude would surely earn you mockery from the general public, and cause me
to revoke the gift.

That scenario has nothing to do with Salvation. God does not offer Salvation like a car is offered. Also, if ones experiencing Salvation depends upon something they must do,[come and pick up a key] then that's a work they did in order to experience salvation.

And yes that can be a reason to boast. One can say, you had the same opportunity I had to get a car , but you did not go get the key like I did. Its a reason to boast.

 

[About the Son of God]

Re: Freewill religion is the Man of Sin ! - Part 2

absog , I am still waiting on the scripture that says this as you stated: For, those who believe in free will -- believe that everyone has free [edited] will.

No, you're not waiting for a scripture; you're in denial.

I stated a belief; Just as I could say those who believe in the "Trinity" generally believe it is scripturally compatible without the word being found in scripture.
IT's the canonical example of a truth found in scripture with many proofs that do not use the word itself, but show the meaning.

I gave you a scripture which uses a synonym for "will", the word is "choose"; and I showed that God set two choices -- not just one pre-determined choice -- before man.

Any dictionary will show that "will" and "choose" are synonymous:
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/free%20will

2
: freedom of humans to make choices that are not determined by prior causes or by divine intervention

I showed that the choice was between two separate things which God sets before man, therefore it's not determined.

Now, I challenge you -- find an EXAMPLE of a man in scripture whom God alone hardened, and I mean where your example NEVER hardened their own heart (a synonym for choosing EVIL is hardening one's heart ...aka... talking back to God ) and where that person was judged guilty and punished for what God did to them without their consent.

God desires that all men be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth; but if God only pre-destines (and therefore allows no freedom), than God's desire is made a lie.

 

[About the Son of God]

Re: Freewill religion is the Man of Sin ! - Part 2

That scenario has nothing to do with Salvation. God does not offer Salvation like a car is offered. Also, if ones experiencing Salvation depends upon something they must do,[come and pick up a key] then that's a work they did in order to experience salvation. And yes that can be a reason to boast. One can say, you had the same opportunity I had to get a car , but you did not go get the key like I did. Its a reason to boast.

Ummmm, yes he does.
He could force salvation on someone, as he intended to do with Paul making that person a war trophy (Greek: Anathema) -- but that's not what God normally does; he normally offers it for free.

But beyond that .... regarding your comment; the "reason to boast" so what ?

Paul does *EXACTLY* that kind of boasting to stir his own Jewish friends to *convert* to Jesus the Christ; it is in fact God's Plan in Paul's way of thinking:

Roman 11:11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them [Jews] to jealousy.
Roman 11:12 Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?
Roman 11:13 For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office:
Roman 11:14 If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them.

But, let's examine boasting a bit more, so you don't try to say the word "boasting" does not appear in the above sentence....

In Romans 3:27, it is true that Paul tells us boasting is excluded -- but notice exactly what he says:
Roman 3:27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith

READ CAREFULLY: Boasting is not excluded by the law of works;
Whether or not you think Paul intended to write that, it's what he wrote by the Holy Spirit's guidance.

He did not say it was wrong to boast about works ; He said something subtly different; and he clarifies the point later on in Romans.
So, first, Let me demonstrate that it's not intrinsically wrong to boast about works, even faith, when done in moderation:

2Cori 7:14 For if I have boasted any thing to him of you, I am not ashamed; but as we spake all things to you in truth, even so our boasting, which I made before Titus, is found a truth.

2Cori 8:23 Whether any do enquire of Titus, he is my partner and fellowhelper concerning you: or our brethren be enquired of, they are the messengers of the churches, and the glory of Christ.
2Cori 8:24 Wherefore shew ye to them, and before the churches, the proof of your love, and of our boasting on your behalf.

2Cori 10:15 Not boasting of things without our measure, that is, of other men's labours; but having hope, when your faith is increased, that we shall be enlarged by you according to our rule abundantly

---- So, Paul is clearly (exceedingly) proud of his converts; and quite often boasts of their faith in order to help others convert, and converts to stay faithful.

Sometimes Paul explicitly acknowledges God's action, sometimes he takes it for Granted that God provided the wealth; but in all cases, Paul still calls the faith of people "theirs".

Roman 1:8 First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for you all, that your faith is spoken of throughout the whole world.


So, what does it matter if one man boasts against another man a little, while there is moderation and love toward the other ?
The "sin" you are implying -- where some Christians boasting that they "believe" in Jesus Christ to non christians -- is a form of evangelization.

Seriously, you're whole boasting argument revolves around something that isn't a sin unto death.
Paul gives the reason that Faith exceeds Work(S) (plural) just a few paragraphs down from where "boasting" is excluded.

Roman 4:4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
Roman 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

It is the price of salvation that no one can boast of having paid; That has little or nothing to do with whether one can boast about having believed in Jesus Christ or not.
God does not owe anyone anything -- so it is wrong to boast against God -- saying God must open his home in heaven to someone just because they did Good things during their life and they think they did so without the help of God; but solely of their own power.

 

[savedbygrace57]

Re: Freewill religion is the Man of Sin ! - Part 2

absog

Ummmm, yes he does.

Please show us the verse that states God offers Salvation ? God gives His People that Christ has Saved by His Death an Knowledge of their Salvation Lk 1:77

To give knowledge of salvation unto his people by the remission of their sins,

He sends them by the Gospel the Good News of their Salvation ! Eph 1:13

13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

Now show us please where it is stated that God offered Salvation !

 

[savedbygrace57]

Does man act freely and responsibly ? Cont

Man is free to only do what God has decreed for him to do, which James points out here James 4:13-17

13 Go to now, ye that say, To day or to morrow we will go into such a city, and continue there a year, and buy and sell, and get gain:

14 Whereas ye know not what shall be on the morrow. For what is your life? It is even a vapour, that appeareth for a little time, and then vanisheth away.

15 For that ye ought to say, If the Lord will, we shall live, and do this, or that. Note: It should be if the Lord will we shall Believe on Christ Savingly !

16 But now ye rejoice in your boastings: all such rejoicing is evil.

17 Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin.

Man is free to do whatever God has decreed, no more nor no less. Also understand man is not free to not do what God has decreed, for its as Jeremiah wrote Jer 10:23

23 O Lord, I know that the way of man is not in himself: it is not in man that walketh to direct his steps.

O Lord, I know that the way humans act is not under their control.
Humans do not direct their steps as they walk.

Lord, I know that none of us are in charge of our own destiny;
none of us have control over our own life.

Though the human will acts responsibly, deliberately, nevertheless its limited to only act within the realm of God's determinate counsel, other than that its not free !588

 

[About the Son of God]

Re: Freewill religion is the Man of Sin ! - Part 2

Please show us the verse that states God offers Salvation ? God gives His People that Christ has Saved by His Death an Knowledge of their Salvation Lk 1:77

To give knowledge of salvation unto his people by the remission of their sins,

I don't see why you have even bothered to quote this -- it neither proves nor disproves nor is even credible evidence either for or against free will.
The people you speak of are already "his people" and therefore already saved ; so God is merely letting them experience some of that salvation before they arrive in heaven.
Whether or not they were saved by choice or by force is not specified in that passage.

But, I will repeat -- as we discussed earlier -- "belief" (the work, singular) comes before salvation.
Even you, in your haste, just quoted scripture proving my point yet again:

13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

The "word" and "gospel" spoken of in your quote is the very "OFFER" of salvation I am speaking of.
I have already shown you one of the most explicit passages where a man is allowed to either follow Jesus or not. Perhaps you didn't read that part of the conversation?

Matth 19:17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
Matth 19:18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,
...
Matth 19:20 The young man saith unto him, All these things have I kept from my youth up: what lack I yet?

By the above quote, we know that the man is worthy of salvation (entering into life based on love of neighbor) for he has already done as Jesus asked,
BUT he has not received that salvation yet in full ; and the only commandments not quoted by Jesus revolve around worshiping God. (Notably, worshiping Jesus is hidden.)
So: now all that remains is for that man to receive the KNOWLEDGE of salvation by coming to worship Jesus the Christ:

Matth 19:21 Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me.
Matth 19:22 But when the young man heard that saying, he went away sorrowful: for he had great possessions.

I don't know of a clearer example of Jesus OFFERING someone salvation on a CONDITION that is based on the person's WILL. If you WILL to be perfect, then Jesus is the one you want to be with. Salvation after death consists in this: BEING with the LORD forever. Let us walk humbly with our Lord and Saviour, Jesus the Christ.

No matter how good a person is, how much of "common" grace from God they show forth by their free choices, in the end -- salvation is only for those who choose to follow Jesus the Christ WHENEVER it is, that Jesus offers that salvation to them.

There is no place in the universe that will no burn at the consummation of the ages, except the temple built by Jesus the Christ; the new Jerusalem.
The man in Matthew was offered the PERFECTING KNOWLEDGE of salvation first hand, in the very presence of Jesus the Christ.

 

[savedbygrace57]

Re: Freewill religion is the Man of Sin ! - Part 2

absog

I don't see why you have even bothered to quote this

Because Lk 1:77 is True.

Now please provide the scripture that states

God offers Salvation ?

God has chosen men to Salvation ! 2 Thess 2:13

But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:

That says nothing about God offering salvation.

 

[About the Son of God]

Re: Freewill religion is the Man of Sin ! - Part 2

Sbg57,

Luke 1:77 being true is an evasion of the question ; I presume we both (I know I do) believe in the inerrancy of scripture.
Hence, you are not telling me anything I don't already know and agree to; but are in fact just multiplying words to say something that doesn't answer my question.

Now, explain how Luke 1:77 shows that man does not have free will in contradiction to what I ACTUALLY ASKED.


NEXT: I just gave you a scripture showing Jesus the God man *offering* salvation.
Are you seriously denying that the man in Matthew was given a choice to follow Jesus into salvation (enter into life, perfectly) ?


As to 2Thess 2:13, that's also a vacuous point. The passage doesn't say that God ALWAYS forces salvation.

Even a man who gives a car away chooses the person to whom he intends to give it.
It ought to be obvious that when they make the choice is *irrelevant*.

So, if I chose to give my car to my son when he was yet in the womb -- and 20 years later I did so.... but he refused.... so what?
If he accepts the car, I can say -- I chose to give it to him 20 years ago; If he doesn't I either don't bother talking about it, or I say I tried to give it to him, but he refused.

In the case of Paul, he is speaking to people who already *ACCEPTED* salvation; so of course, he is going to say they were "chosen".
But ... I'll note that additionally (predestinationally) you've totally overlooked the issue that "from the beginning" does not even say the beginning of "what".

There are various worlds, or ages; The age of water (Adam's time), the world of the Macedonians, the age of Bronze, Iron, (the Roman Age) and so forth.
When Jesus Christ came into the world, that too was a new beginning, a brand new WORD, for Jesus is a genesis from which we all get our genealogy as Sons of God.

Notice how 2Thessalonians 2:13 says HOW they were chosen ?
eg: "to salvation through ... belief ..."

It's not unconditional choice to salvation, but rather it is "salvation THROUGH" something.
Now, BELIEF, is the moment someone is saved.... so it is a BEGINNING ; and can be the very beginning of the choice.

 

[savedbygrace57]

In wisdom hast thou made them all !

Ps 104:24

24 O Lord, how manifold are thy works! in wisdom hast thou made them all: the earth is full of thy riches.

God made all that He made in wisdom as the above testifies to, and so made He the wicked for the day of evil in Wisdom Prov 16:4

4 The Lord hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.

Yes, He was the Potter whom made them vessels of wrath to fit them for destruction Rom 9:20-22

20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?

21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

The Psalmist says In Wisdom though hast Made, that Wisdom which is One with God's Eternal Redemptive Purpose in Christ Eph 3:9-11

9 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:

10 To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God,

11 According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord:

For Christ is the Wisdom of God 1 Cor 1:24

But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.


God made the Wicked for Himself in Wisdom and for a Suitable Purpose in Christ Jesus !

God before the world began purposed that Christ would be slain by wicked hands Acts 2:23

Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:590

 

[savedbygrace57]

Re: Freewill religion is the Man of Sin ! - Part 2

absog

I just gave you a scripture showing Jesus the God man *offering* salvation.

I asked for a scripture that says as you said right here:

God offers Salvation ?

I have never seen that scripture. Are you quoting scripture here ?

 

[About the Son of God]

Re: Freewill religion is the Man of Sin ! - Part 2

sbg57,

You don't have the right to ask for a scripture that says something when I never claimed a scripture says those exact words.
Besides: I never said the exact words "God offers Salvation ?" as you are accusing me; You did. You're quoting yourself.
I gave an ANALOGY between my own offering of car and salvation and said there is a LIKENESS between them.

Stop putting words into my mouth with misquotes.

Now, I asked for an explanation of a SCRIPTURE you did quote to me exactly: Luke 1:77.
In the two posts that followed, Luke 1:77 is not explained by you. Rather you are attempting to change the subject to other scriptures.

I can take each of those new scriptures and discuss them separately -- but if you aren't going to explain yourself regarding Luke 1:77, then you're not engaging in apologetics -- but doing spam and run.

I don't deny when I make a mistake, or do not understand another's position ( See my discussion with Eugene ) -- I expect as a matter of courtesy that others do the same. It's keeps the discussion charitable.

Now, again: will you answer the Question of what Luke 1:77 has to do with predestination vs. free will?

 

[savedbygrace57]

Re: Freewill religion is the Man of Sin ! - Part 2

absog

You don't have the right to ask for a scripture that says something when I
never claimed a scripture says those exact words.

Then are you confessing that scripture does not say exactly what you stated here ?

God offers Salvation ?

Yes or No ! If no, then I do not believe you have a right to make that statement.

 

[About the Son of God]

Re: Freewill religion is the Man of Sin ! - Part 2

absog You don't have the right to ask for a scripture that says something when I never claimed a scripture says those exact words.

Scripture demonstrates Jesus offering salvation conditionally -- but it does not "SAY" he "offered salvation".
Rather: Scripture actually SHOWS Jesus doing it. Scripture demonstrates the point.

Matthew 19:16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life ?
Matthew 19:17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

Right there, in Matthew 19:17, Jesus gives a man a choice/offer in order to be saved (that's what it means to have eternal life).
I am not claiming this offer is made to all men in exactly the same way; for Jesus is free to tell one man "do this" and another "do that"; but I am claiming that Matthew 19:17 is a very clear example of an offer of salvation to one particular man, being made in a particular way by God-man. (Not God alone).

In the two verses that follow, Jesus speaks of the perfection of salvation... which consist in the words "follow me".
This completes the offer to the man of salvation, and immediately being with Jesus.

Do you deny that Jesus is offering this man eternal life?

Then are you confessing that scripture does not say exactly what you stated here ?

God offers Salvation ?

Yes or No ! If no, then I do not believe you have a right to make that statement.

Do I need to ask a moderator to check the exact wording I used, and reprove you for misquoting me?
You are bearing false witness against me; for I never used the exact words "God offers salvation".
It's not a direct quote of me -- even if I agree to the meaning.

Now:
You are still spamming and running on Luke 1:77.

 

[Elijah674]

Re: Freewill religion is the Man of Sin ! - Part 2

absog You don't have the right to ask for a scripture that says something when I never claimed a scripture says those exact words.

Scripture demonstrates Jesus offering salvation conditionally -- but it does not "SAY" he "offered salvation".
Rather: Scripture actually SHOWS Jesus doing it. Scripture demonstrates the point.

Matthew 19:16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life ?
Matthew 19:17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

Right there, in Matthew 19:17, Jesus gives a man a choice/offer in order to be saved (that's what it means to have eternal life).
I am not claiming this offer is made to all men in exactly the same way; for Jesus is free to tell one man "do this" and another "do that"; but I am claiming that Matthew 19:17 is a very clear example of an offer of salvation to one particular man, being made in a particular way by God-man. (Not God alone).

In the two verses that follow, Jesus speaks of the perfection of salvation... which consist in the words "follow me".
This completes the offer to the man of salvation, and immediately being with Jesus.

Do you deny that Jesus is offering this man eternal life?

Then are you confessing that scripture does not say exactly what you stated here ?

God offers Salvation ?

Yes or No ! If no, then I do not believe you have a right to make that statement.

Do I need to ask a moderator to check the exact wording I used, and reprove you for misquoting me?
You are bearing false witness against me; for I never used the exact words "God offers salvation".
It's not a direct quote of me -- even if I agree to the meaning.

Now:
You are still spamming and running on Luke 1:77.

Anyway we can read of Peter a BIBLE penman restating a biblical claim in 1 cor. 14 ...
[32] And the spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets. (and where did he read that one from! ;))

But his much more clear statement is found in 2 Peter 2
[19] While they promise them liberty, they themselves are the servants of corruption: for of whom a man is overcome, of the same is he brought in bondage.
[20] For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.
[21] For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.
[22] But it is happened unto them [[according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again;]] and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.

And hey, Peter was a student of the WORD, (all of it!) see OT Prov. 26
[10] The great God that formed all things both rewardeth the fool, and rewardeth transgressors.
[11] As a dog returneth to his vomit, so a fool returneth to his folly.
[12] Seest thou a man wise in his own conceit? there is more hope of a fool than of him.
(and these guys are all over the place!)

--Elijah

 

[About the Son of God]

Re: Freewill religion is the Man of Sin ! - Part 2

Relax! A few of these guys give a post after post with NO censorship! Perhaps this is one of these ones??;)

To the forum's credit, he isn't fully one of those....

It would be a pity, though, to leave many of the points he brings up UN-discussed just because I write him off as "one of those guys." ... I'm rather interested in how he can hold certain views; and to what degree my vocabulary and his are a cause of impediment.

I don't know if he's able to articulating his understanding coherently for he refuses to answer most questions ... but I'm still hoping. Perhaps I just need to wait for someone who shares his views to join with him and give him some help in the tact and explanation department.

Thanks for the encouragement to relax -- I DO get uptight sometimes.

My goal is mostly self improvement along this line of thought;
1Corinthians 14:9.

Anyway we can read of Peter a BIBLE penman restating a biblical claim in 1 cor. 14 ...
[32] And the spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets. (and where did he read that one from! ;))

Indeed, he doesn't appear to be quoting another scripture.
And ... ... I've sometimes really wondered what Paul meant when compared to the prophet Jeremiah 20:7-9. ... Especially Jeremiah 20:9

Does Paul mean that the spirit of a prophet (his own soul) is under his control, rather than the spirit of prophecy speaking through the prophet?; or perhaps Paul understands that the spirit of prophecy is imperfectly in the prophet's control -- but none the less, the prophet is responsible to try and maintain order over that prophetic spirit ?

In either event, it is only the authority of God over the spirits which could possibly make them speak in harmony.

But his much more clear statement is found in 2 Peter 2

I've read the quote several times; and I have to make some assumptions as to the particular truth being "restated" in order to make sense of your comment. If I am mistaken, please advise.

Given the context of a false prophet, both 2Peter and 1Corinthians 14 can be speaking of the same issue. (1Corinthians goes on to include true prophets, though.)

So, disharmony, disorder, and lies (esp. false Gospel) are all signs of false prophecy and prophets.

[19] While they promise them liberty, they themselves are the servants of corruption: for of whom a man is overcome, of the same is he brought in bondage.

Hmmm.... a promise of liberty == "good news/gospel" ...

Some forms of OSAS could be charged with promising liberty, while permitting corruption; and so, the verses which you are quoting and emphasizing not only contradict much of what SBG57 has been saying, but also enter into areas of apologetic that I haven't been considering such as predestination to temporary salvation, vs. the semantic argument that "they were never saved in the first place."; etc.

I'm not intending to explore that part of the argument at this time and have been trying hard (but perhaps not very successfully?) to write my responses so that Christians of either general view can still understand my basic point concerning free will.

Double predestination, where God causes the evil -- and punishes it (both) -- is what I am specifically going to discredit here in the thread as best I can.

SBG57 listed a series of statements which support the view that God causes evil for the day of wrath; each of which has a partial flaw ; but I think his list is fairly common, and is good list to explore (bible study wise) so that clearer scriptural proofs/explanations/studies can be formulated/discovered to help explain the truth of the Gospels.

Bless you, Brother Elijah...!

 

[mondar]

Re: Freewill religion is the Man of Sin ! - Part 2

Notice how 2Thessalonians 2:13 says HOW they were chosen ?
eg: "to salvation through ... belief ..."

It's not unconditional choice to salvation, but rather it is "salvation THROUGH" something.
Now, BELIEF, is the moment someone is saved.... so it is a BEGINNING ; and can be the very beginning of the choice.

2Th 2:13 But we are bound to give thanks to God always for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, for that God chose you from the beginning unto salvation in sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:
In 2 Thes 2:13 if we make faith the cause of election, we also have to make sanctification of the Spirit the cause of election. Then one must already be holy before he is saved. Then of course he would not need salvation. I am wondering if you will be consistent on that point?

Of course there is no need for such a works oriented, self-salvation interpretation, because the verse does not say how they were chosen at all. If it did, we would see some vocabulary that would suggest the concept of "means." I see no reason to take the "en" ("in" sanctification....) in any other sense than to see the word salvation as the antecedent of the words "sanctification," and "faith." The word "for" speaks of a purpose clause to follow. So then, the verse is speaking of the purpose of God electing us. The purpose is salvation, and that salvation is "in sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth"