Growth Comment on “The Church Age”

[netchaplain]

you also forget that the chialism in johns day had the resurrection after the millennium. not before.per Justin martyr.

I believe the resurrection after the Millennium, which is the second or last, will consist of the damned.

Also, please know I'm replying to your comments with the motive of seeking truth, and not out of contention nor competition, which I hope is the same with you.

 

[netchaplain]

The believing Jew prior to seeing Christ will inherit not the "new earth," but the "new heaven," same as the believing Gentile.

 

[gr8grace]

of which i am. yet this thread in its posts has said i deny that when i come to Christ. next. peter says the earth and all of creation is destroyed. if isreal is a physical land(jews even say this) and is destroyed then where is this promise then? jews today teach(my dad taught me) that the 7,000 year of creation the earth and all in it will be destroyed.the faithful jews will be in heaven forever with the heshem.this is called the isreal of heaven.

I

I think, after the millenium, The entire new Earth is Israels. The Promise in its entirety and finally fulfilled to Israel.

I think you are overlooking all the things you have gained by being a Christian.

But honestly Jason, The way you cling to your bloodline and your "Jewishness" proves to me that God has future Plans for His People(Jews)

We don't see Germans,Africans,Polocks, Asians and other nationalities cling so tight to their bloodlines after becoming Christians. God has yet to deal completely with Israel.

 

[netchaplain]

I
God has yet to deal completely with Israel.

Amen! "God has not cast away His people which He foreknew" (Rom 11:2).

 

[jasoncran]

I

I think, after the millenium, The entire new Earth is Israels. The Promise in its entirety and finally fulfilled to Israel.

I think you are overlooking all the things you have gained by being a Christian.

But honestly Jason, The way you cling to your bloodline and your "Jewishness" proves to me that God has future Plans for His People(Jews)

We don't see Germans,Africans,Polocks, Asians and other nationalities cling so tight to their bloodlines after becoming Christians. God has yet to deal completely with Israel.

actually, no. I care not whether I get it or not. I leave that to god. my clingness has nothing to do with prophecy but because its family and my grandparents being jews, and its cultural . by this well we have to get really off topic.. by studying this I honor them. I was raised to love isreal. nothing more nothing less. even atheistic jews who deny any diety have this in them. you as a gentile have no such understanding of that. that said.

matthew 5:5 says that the meek shall inherit the earth. if this is only to the Hebrew nation. then this isn't really a quality a gentile should seek. isreal wasn't created in genesis one but the whole earth. god foreknew isreal, yes but he had a purpose for isreal to birth Christ. when he came god then removed any function of isreal , and gave that to the blood. try not to confuse my Zionism with your version.NOT ALL JEWS believe that modern isreal is even remotely part of gods plan. I don't. I know of jews that believe the modern isreal is a sin. they don't hate jews just that see that only the moshiac should be the one to restore land,not ben gurion.

until the late 1800's the jews didn't want to return to isreal. the jews in isreal when they started to flow into isreal. simply didn't want that as they believe (rightly) that war would ensue. it did. the reason I support isreal has little to do with prophecy. I also am aware of the shoah and also that only a jew will protect a jew. counter question. is a jew less a jew if he isn't in isreal?

 

[jasoncran]

netchaplain. uhm that isn't logical. the problem with that is the Hebrew cant be separated from isreal in your doctrine. you have just defeated your own argument. why? if a jew who has land leads his family to Christ in isreal and the rapture occurs. all have been forfeited of their lands., for what? sin? no, God forbid. god tells isreal I will return for your repentance. I have yet to hear any jew in my family say that It was because of the temple and moshiac's promise that I have repented. no I hear because of the cross!

onward to levite. the problem with the scofield doctrine is many fold with the levite. first off the levite has not to have land, as he has no area but is giving space to dwell in amongst the tribes.GOD was their inheritance. this is big nail. the sons of levi were to do what?

 

[Sinthesis]

To be included in the Church, which is the Body of Christ, faith in Christ must precede presence with Christ, and I believe Jesus addressed this in John 10:29 when He spoke to Thomas saying, "because thou hast seen Me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed."

It seems to me that this criteria would disqualify Thomas as a member of the Church. Why must faith in Christ precede presence with Christ? Was not Christ present with Saul/Paul on the road to Damascus?

 

[jasoncran]

not to mention where are these Hebrews coming from? if the ac is so all that and able to deceive all man to be that wicked. the when Christ returns he just lets them live?

 

[Sinthesis]

I do not hesitate to admit that there is much to learn for all (self included) who desire to know the division of the Church and Israel. I want to share a brief reply to the article “The Church Age” because many still have not understood the implications of Galatians 3:14. The blessing of redemption (v 3) through Abraham does not come to the generality of Israel, but to believing Israel, first (remnant of Israel), then the believing Gentile (Rom 1:16), making "one fold" (John 10:16).

I would like to point out that after Jesus' Ascension, redemption was offered exclusively to the Jews for 3.5yrs, and some believed (fulfilling the 70th week). Ever since, redemption has likewise been offered to the Gentiles, and some have believed. In this way all believers in Christ are now of one fold as adopted sons of Christ. Any further blessing will also come through Christ, and as Christ had no physical heirs, the only way for anyone to be identified with Him is through faith in God.

 

[netchaplain]

It seems to me that this criteria would disqualify Thomas as a member of the Church. Why must faith in Christ precede presence with Christ? Was not Christ present with Saul/Paul on the road to Damascus?

Thanks again for the deep-digging comments and questions, which can benefit everyone viewing this thread. It's another concept I've been wanting to share for the last couple of years and learning the responses after sharing it, I have come to discover there are more difficulties in explaining it than I had expected or realized.

Jesus establishing the reality of His resurrection with His Apostles and disciples through showing Himself, which were "infallible proofs" (Acts 1:3), provided the way for others to believe in Him as the Savior and in His resurrection.

I do not believe that His resurrection was something He expected them to realize until He manifested it to them, thus establishing it for others to believe, but not until He ascended (so the Spirit could be used to enable faith in Him and His resurrection). At that time, they had physical proof (which established the basis concerning His resurrection).

So now since His ascension, all believers have the Word concerning it and the witness of the Spirit in them to confirm in them that He is the risen Savior. Again, until there was proof, they could not comprehend His resurrection; which was when they saw the empty tomb (John 20:8), and after He had shown them His resurrected body (John 20:20).

What Jesus was addressing Thomas about, concerned not Him being the Savior, which was already a belief they had, but His resurrection. He was not, as I mentioned, expecting Thomas to already believe in His resurrection, which He was establishing; for none of them believed even after His mentioning it to them (Matt 17:9; Luke 24:46; Mark 9:10; John 2:22). This is what I mean by saying that the Jews who believe in Him as Savior after they see Him in the Millennium will not be included in the "blessed are they who have not seen (who have not seen Jesus or His resurrection) and yet have believed (John 20:29).

I believe Gill's comment on John 20:9 may offer some help:

"For as yet they knew not the Scripture,.... Meaning not some particular passage of Scripture, but the writings of the Old Testament in general, and the various places in it, which spoke of the resurrection of Christ, either in a way of type, or prophecy; such as Genesis 22:4.

"And though our Lord had often referred to some of them, at least as in Matthew 12:40 yet such was the dullness of the disciples, or such their prejudices in favor of the Messiah being to continue, and set up a temporal kingdom, that even John, who leaned on His breast, and Peter, who was so inquisitive and desirous of knowing our Lord's meaning in everything, did not understand the sense of His words, nor of those places of Scripture He had reference to.

"That He must rise again from the dead": so it was determined, thus it was predicted, and the justification and salvation of God's elect required it; and yet they knew not the thing, nor the necessity and importance of it."

I thought is also helpful to include some of Gill's comment on his above reference to Genesis 22:4: "The Jews take great notice of this third day, and compare the passage with Hosea 6:2; and which they interpret of the third day of the resurrection; and the deliverance of Isaac on this third day was doubtless typical of Christ's resurrection from the dead on the third day; for from the time that Abraham had the command to offer up his son, he was reckoned no other by him than as one dead, from whence he received him in a figure on this third day, Hebrews 11:19."

I do not expect this one reply to sufficiently address all I've shared and also other inquiries that will arise, so I will continue to address what I can as correspondence continues with this thread. I will probably need to write and article on it so it can be shared with as many as may find it interesting enough.

 

[netchaplain]

I would like to point out that after Jesus' Ascension, redemption was offered exclusively to the Jews for 3.5yrs, and some believed (fulfilling the 70th week). Ever since, redemption has likewise been offered to the Gentiles, and some have believed. In this way all believers in Christ are now of one fold as adopted sons of Christ. Any further blessing will also come through Christ, and as Christ had no physical heirs, the only way for anyone to be identified with Him is through faith in God.

Yes, to the Jew first, then the Gentile (Rom1:16; 2:9, 10). The "natural" branch first, then the "wild" branch (Rom 11:24). God always worked with His people first, then with others who were not His people.

 

[Sparkey]

Jason, may I? Because we need to go slow here. I will like to remind you that your question about "Jesus removes the church to start another," must be centered on what God sees when he speaks of a "church". You are correct to notice that when Paul spoke he said, "There is now no difference between Jew or Gentile (or Goy, if you'd rather). Because at that very time, the fact that God had made His habitation within Gentiles had been shown and was known.

Jesus is the only begotten flesh (tabernacle, tent, dwelling place of the Most High). God became flesh and tabernacled here with us. We are saved as we join into Him, into his death. But you know all this. Netchaplain spoke to mention that there is a difference between the time before Pentecost and the time after. That is the same difference that exists between being crucified into him, dying, that we may be raised --and rising in the newness of life. That is when the Holy Spirit was given and that is the time when men were filled with the Holy Spirit. Those men were Jews. But the outpouring that was spoken of was promised upon all flesh. We asl asked to consider that if we are blessed by being joined into His death, how much more shall we be as we rise into His Life. We have been invited to be One with Him even as He is One with the Father. That invitation extends though each person who has received the Gift of the Holy Spirit, as you have.

Now don't let's get bogged down here. The invitation is offered to all, even that thief - but it is extended only by the Holy Spirit in us, for it is the Holy Spirit that is utterly holy and apart from all sin. We know that God does not so much as even look upon sin. That we are sinful, that it is by that Free Gift that we are made clean. We are also given power and that comes with a very specific anointing and calling. But then again, you already know this.

The Church or Body of Christ did not begin until the day of Pentecost, when the Holy Spirit was given, "for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified (ascended - John 7:39). Jesus said He cannot send the Holy Spirit until He leaves (John 16:7).

Prior to the cross, the final payment for sin had not been offered, as you know. When Jesus spoke to the thief on the cross he offered salvation to him. But that thief (although saved) does not have that same opportunity as you, who have not seen, yet believe, does.

Pardon my slight side-track but God is a God of order. We know that Adam was created first, and his wife added unto Him. That is not done away with no matter how many Gloria Steinem's clamor for it. In much the same manner, our Jewish Brothers (older brothers) shall be made to be a cause of JOY to all nations for they too came first. We Goy are cautioned not to think too highly of ourselves. Just because we were grafted in. God did not spare and will not spare. He is both Merciful and Gracious and He is also Just. Every knee shall bow. Yours and mine. This is the same God who shook the mountain and the Jews were afraid, fearing because not so much as a bird could draw close without dying. That is the same God who promises, "Everything that can be shaken, shall be shaken."

There will come a time, maybe soon, when those who are of the natural children of Abraham will see the unity that flows and the blessing that God commands from that place (please do see Psalm 133) and be pricked to jealousy. They shall turn and shall be received and shall be filled.

For it is made known unto us, us Goy and select few of those of the Hebrew blood for the time being, that God is dwelling among his people. We are the temple of the Holy Spirit. God has not abandoned His people nor shall He who says, "I shall never leave nor forsake you," be caused to become a liar. His Word, is true. It was for that cause that Jesus came and none may prevent what has been accomplished from being seen --> for that very same God has said, "My glory shall fill all heaven and all earth."

No, it's not about Him leaving one for another. It's about Him being gracious to those who were not called, even me. That does not mean that the Name of the King of All Accomplishment shall ever be diminished. Not in the least.

The question of who shall be the greatest in the Kingdom is much on the hearts of many. But the real interest should no longer be self-serving, for in striving to determine such things we show ourselves to be a son of Zebedee (Mark 15:40) do we not?

~Sparrow

 

[Deborah13]

I

I think, after the millenium, The entire new Earth is Israels. The Promise in its entirety and finally fulfilled to Israel.

I think you are overlooking all the things you have gained by being a Christian.

But honestly Jason, The way you cling to your bloodline and your "Jewishness" proves to me that God has future Plans for His People(Jews)

We don't see Germans,Africans,Polocks, Asians and other nationalities cling so tight to their bloodlines after becoming Christians. God has yet to deal completely with Israel.

That's because being Jewish is a religion not just a nationality or bloodline.
Native Americans do cling to theirs same as a Jew because theirs is also a religion.

Ancestry.com is doing quite well by the way from what I hear.

 

[Sinthesis]

Thanks again for the deep-digging comments and questions, which can benefit everyone viewing this thread. It's another concept I've been wanting to share for the last couple of years and learning the responses after sharing it, I have come to discover there are more difficulties in explaining it than I had expected or realized.

Jesus establishing the reality of His resurrection with His Apostles and disciples through showing Himself, which were "infallible proofs" (Acts 1:3), provided the way for others to believe in Him as the Savior and in His resurrection.

I do not believe that His resurrection was something He expected them to realize until He manifested it to them, thus establishing it for others to believe, but not until He ascended (so the Spirit could be used to enable faith in Him and His resurrection). At that time, they had physical proof (which established the basis concerning His resurrection).

So now since His ascension, all believers have the Word concerning it and the witness of the Spirit in them to confirm in them that He is the risen Savior. Again, until there was proof, they could not comprehend His resurrection; which was when they saw the empty tomb (John 20:8), and after He had shown them His resurrected body (John 20:20).

What Jesus was addressing Thomas about, concerned not Him being the Savior, which was already a belief they had, but His resurrection. He was not, as I mentioned, expecting Thomas to already believe in His resurrection, which He was establishing; for none of them believed even after His mentioning it to them (Matt 17:9; Luke 24:46; Mark 9:10; John 2:22). This is what I mean by saying that the Jews who believe in Him as Savior after they see Him in the Millennium will not be included in the "blessed are they who have not seen (who have not seen Jesus or His resurrection) and yet have believed (John 20:29).

I believe Gill's comment on John 20:9 may offer some help:

"For as yet they knew not the Scripture,.... Meaning not some particular passage of Scripture, but the writings of the Old Testament in general, and the various places in it, which spoke of the resurrection of Christ, either in a way of type, or prophecy; such as Genesis 22:4.

"And though our Lord had often referred to some of them, at least as in Matthew 12:40 yet such was the dullness of the disciples, or such their prejudices in favor of the Messiah being to continue, and set up a temporal kingdom, that even John, who leaned on His breast, and Peter, who was so inquisitive and desirous of knowing our Lord's meaning in everything, did not understand the sense of His words, nor of those places of Scripture He had reference to.

"That He must rise again from the dead": so it was determined, thus it was predicted, and the justification and salvation of God's elect required it; and yet they knew not the thing, nor the necessity and importance of it."

I thought is also helpful to include some of Gill's comment on his above reference to Genesis 22:4: "The Jews take great notice of this third day, and compare the passage with Hosea 6:2; and which they interpret of the third day of the resurrection; and the deliverance of Isaac on this third day was doubtless typical of Christ's resurrection from the dead on the third day; for from the time that Abraham had the command to offer up his son, he was reckoned no other by him than as one dead, from whence he received him in a figure on this third day, Hebrews 11:19."

I do not expect this one reply to sufficiently address all I've shared and also other inquiries that will arise, so I will continue to address what I can as correspondence continues with this thread. I will probably need to write and article on it so it can be shared with as many as may find it interesting enough.

Thanks for the response. I truly sympathize with the difficulties in explaining things like this. I think we agree that Jesus showing himself after the resurrection was a confirmation that he was in fact the Messiah, and done for all His followers who undoubtedly had their belief shattered as He died on the cross. I don't believe this failure in faith amongst His followers was due to a fault found among only Jews, but rather a fault deep within humanity's sin nature. In other words I don't believe we can blame them because I don't think we would've done any better. Yet the fragility of their belief prior to the resurrection was due to a prejudicial expectation for a temporal Messianic Kingdom, rather than the spiritual one we now know as the Church. Given that we know the Jews were deceived in what they expected their Messiah would do while physically on earth with regards to a temporal kingdom, why should we expect that this delusion will somehow be realized for a thousand years in the future? My concern is that a temporary messianic Kingdom is just a resurrection of that delusional expectation from 2000yrs ago, and detracts from the reality of God's everlasting spiritual kingdom which the church administers here on earth right now. Yes, I believe as Christians we are currently in the millennium, striving to bring others into it as well.

As for the Jews who believe in Him as Savior after they see Him in the Millennium, but will not be included in the "blessed are they who have not seen (who have not seen Jesus or His resurrection) and yet have believed (John 20:29), won't they in fact be blessed somehow, just as Thomas was surely blessed?

 

[Sinthesis]

Yes, to the Jew first, then the Gentile (Rom1:16; 2:9, 10). The "natural" branch first, then the "wild" branch (Rom 11:24). God always worked with His people first, then with others who were not His people.

It is the idea of 'to the Jew first, then the Gentile' that I believe allows us to explore the possibilities for interpreting more than one first coming, and even more than one second coming, depending on how we limit the target population. That is, every individual population receives one first coming, and one second. From a universal perspective, collectively this would add up to more than two comings in total, but from each individual perspective there would appear to only be two.

 

[jasoncran]

That's because being Jewish is a religion not just a nationality or bloodline.
Native Americans do cling to theirs same as a Jew because theirs is also a religion.

Ancestry.com is doing quite well by the way from what I hear.

I was going to going into that, I did allude to the gentiles who become jews. they ignored that part.

 

[netchaplain]

Given that we know the Jews were deceived in what they expected their Messiah would do while physically on earth with regards to a temporal kingdom, why should we expect that this delusion will somehow be realized for a thousand years in the future? My concern is that a temporary messianic Kingdom is just a resurrection of that delusional expectation from 2000yrs ago, and detracts from the reality of God's everlasting spiritual kingdom which the church administers here on earth right now. Yes, I believe as Christians we are currently in the millennium, striving to bring others into it as well.

As for the Jews who believe in Him as Savior after they see Him in the Millennium, but will not be included in the "blessed are they who have not seen (who have not seen Jesus or His resurrection) and yet have believed (John 20:29), won't they in fact be blessed somehow, just as Thomas was surely blessed?

HI S - To qualify for the present age (or even any past - Preterist view) to be the Millennium Kingdom (MK), this would have to be Jesus' kingdom, which would depart from Scriptural doctrine (John 18:36). The Christian is in this world, thus His kingdom is in the Christian, not this world, and its coming is inevitable.

Thomas and all of Christ's Apostles and disciples were Christian, and the implications of Jesus' resurrection related to being "blessed" was not accountable to them, because He had not yet established the basis for faith in His resurrection, which wasn't until He ascended. One of the blessings of the Jews who God saves later is the new earth, as promised.

 

[netchaplain]

There is much debate concerning whether or not the Jer 31:31/Eze 36:27 prophecies are in reference to the Jews or to the Gentiles also. Presently, I believe that these prophecies are separate from the prophecy of Joel, which has already started since Acts 2 and applies to “all flesh” (v 17); and the above prophecies are still yet future and applies only to the Jews. To me, one clear differentiation is evidenced by how the entire chapter of Ezekiel 36 is distinctively referenced to Israel’s history, i.e. verse 28.

The Jer 31/Eze 36 prophecies will have been realized when unbelieving Israel (unbelieving Jews alive at the time of fulfillment) will be given His Spirit and finally come to faith in the Lord Jesus, same as it already has been done presently in believing Jews and Gentiles. The significant difference is what Jesus spoke of in John 20:29, in that the Millennium Jews will not believe until the Father puts His Spirit in them and they see Jesus.

This would mean there are two new covenants; the one in the present dispensation which is in the "blood of Christ" (Luke 22:20 et al), and the one in future Israel—both are “everlasting” and Christ is the mediator of both (1 Tim 2:5).

Again, I want to share that I realize that my present comprehension which I have been sharing concerning the concepts relating to Israel and the Church could be speculative and may not necessarily be accurate because Scripture is not openly clear concerning this subject, which is the situation concerning many Biblical doctrines. But the doctrines which are clear, esp. those which are salvation-essential, i.e. Romans 10:9, cannot be speculative but rather must be definite in concept and acceptance.


God’s blessings to your Family!

 

[farouk]

There is much debate concerning whether or not the Jer 31:31/Eze 36:27 prophecies are in reference to the Jews or to the Gentiles also. Presently, I believe that these prophecies are separate from the prophecy of Joel, which has already started since Acts 2 and applies to “all flesh” (v 17); and the above prophecies are still yet future and applies only to the Jews. To me, one clear differentiation is evidenced by how the entire chapter of Ezekiel 36 is distinctively referenced to Israel’s history, i.e. verse 28.

The Jer 31/Eze 36 prophecies will have been realized when unbelieving Israel (unbelieving Jews alive at the time of fulfillment) will be given His Spirit and finally come to faith in the Lord Jesus, same as it already has been done presently in believing Jews and Gentiles. The significant difference is what Jesus spoke of in John 20:29, in that the Millennium Jews will not believe until the Father puts His Spirit in them and they see Jesus.

This would mean there are two new covenants; the one in the present dispensation which is in the "blood of Christ" (Luke 22:20 et al), and the one in future Israel—both are “everlasting” and Christ is the mediator of both (1 Tim 2:5).

Again, I want to share that I realize that my present comprehension which I have been sharing concerning the concepts relating to Israel and the Church could be speculative and may not necessarily be accurate because Scripture is not openly clear concerning this subject, which is the situation concerning many Biblical doctrines. But the doctrines which are clear, esp. those which are salvation-essential, i.e. Romans 10:9, cannot be speculative but rather must be definite in concept and acceptance.


God’s blessings to your Family!

I doubt whether those Old Testament references refer to the church.

More likely, to what will happen on earth after the church has gone, i.e., been raptured.

Blessings.

 

[jasoncran]

what was exactly joel 2 saying when peters says that came to pass in acts 2? and it shall come to pass that in the last days shall I pour out my spirit upon all flesh.. that is what peter quotes. whom got the Holy Ghost? jews that are now the church and no gentiles? if that isn't about the church then it was about isreal? ok then that promise didn't go to the gentiles? I think it did. we see that in that same book.