Body, Soul, and Spirit

[Doulos Iesou]

It's seems the work 'today' is in the bible over 190 times, and for myself when I look at this passage it seems to me there is more than one way to see it and even understand the meaning of 'today'.

The point about the comma shows how easily the words can have other explanations.

Thanks,

Digging

There also is no range of meaning for this word to mean anything other than a variation of "today."

View attachment 4587
The variation we see in it's translation is either "today" or "this very day" or "very day."

The possible senses are:

today (noun)
The day that includes the present moment (as opposed to yesterday or tomorrow).

today [temporal] (adverb)
On this day as distinct from yesterday or tomorrow.

now = today (noun)
the present time, understood as the day that includes the present moment.

The usage of the word in Luke 23:43 is as an adverb, and explicitly temporal. There simply is no room for manipulating the text to change it's meaning from how it is always translated. The evidence doesn't suggest your interpretation, and you will not find a Greek scholar anywhere who would agree.

 

[DRS81]

Translation:

"Today, you will be with me in Paradise."

The translators rightly put them in because of how the Greek authors used these words at the front of the clause to denote the time in which it took place. It is consistently translated such, and only here do people who don't know the Greek contest it. It is those who deny the translated text here who insert their beliefs in order to change the meaning of the text, when the translated text is actually built on solid grammatical evidence and discourse analysis.

Unless we were literally at the feet of the cross on that day 2,000 years ago, how can anybody know how Jesus said it. How do we find the very first manuscripts of Luke 23 from 2,000 years ago, the manuscript that Luke himself wrote.

 

[Deborah13]

I don't think you're getting it. The translators don't put the comma there for some ambiguous or self-serving purpose. They put it there because of how Greek grammar works.

Greek authors use word order to front important information in the initial position of the clause, and in regards to the word "today" this is a Temporal Frame that establishes a specific time for the clause that follows.

In the Greek they would put the word that denotes the specific time at the front, such as the word "tomorrow," which would be followed by the rest of the clause to which the Temporal Frame would have established the time of. So it would look like this:

"Tomorrow I will go to the store to buy eggs."

The writer Luke, as I already demonstrated, is consistent in fronting the word "semeron" (Today) at the initial position of the clause.

You can disregard the rules of grammar and discourse analysis and believe whatever you want, but for me I want to believe the truth. Which is why when I studied this text, I changed my position on the matter.

In English we might say,
"Tomorrow I will go to the store to buy eggs." or "I will go to the store to buy eggs tomorrow."

Does the Greek ever put the time at the end of a clause rather than the beginning?

 

[Deborah13]

Unless we were literally at the feet of the cross on that day 2,000 years ago, how can anybody know how Jesus said it. How do we find the very first manuscripts of Luke 23 2,000 years ago. The manuscript that Luke himself wrote.

We have to trust God that He has not allowed all the very old copies to be corrupted. If you read several commentaries, like say Adam Clarke's he will give variances that appear in different copies. It is really remarkable how few variances there are.
Daniel 9:24שבעים שבעים נחתך על עמך ועל עיר קדשך

לכלא הפשע ולחתם חטאות

ולכפר עו ולהביא צדק עלמים

ובצלחתם חזו ונביא ולמשח קדש קדשים׃

Daniel 9:24Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people, and the city of thy sanctuary:

That sin may be restrained, and transgressions have an end;

That iniquity may be expiated, and an everlasting righteousness brought in;

That visions and prophecies may be sealed up, and the Holy of holies anointed.

Daniel 9:24שבוים שבעים weeks written full, so to prevent mistakes, in thirteen of Kennicott's, four of De Rossi's, and one ancient of my own.

שבעים Seventy-one of Kennicott's, and one of De Rossi's, have שבועים "weeks, weeks, weeks;" that is, "many weeks:" but this is a mere mistake.

לכלא "to restrain." לכלח "to consume," is the reading of twenty-nine of Kennicott's, thirteen of De Rossi's, and one ancient of my own.

ולחתם "and to seal up." Forty-three of Kennicott's, twelve of De Rossi's, and one of my own, have ולחתם "to make an end." One reads ולחתום, more full.

חטאות "sins." חטאת "sin," in the singular, is the reading of twenty-six of De Rossi's; and so, in the second instance where this word occurs, two of my MSS.

http://biblehub.com/commentaries/clarke/daniel/9.htm

I'm not too impressed with someone saying they are lead by the Holy Spirit so they know they are right or by someone saying I read it like this, when they don't think they need to at least consider what has been written by Godly knowledgeable men, that could actually read and understand the languages that the Bible was written in.

 

[Butch5]

Moses and Elijah were in the Spirit.

The spirit of Moses and Elijah appeared to Jesus.

John was caught up to the third heaven like Paul.

The passage says nothing about them being in the spirit. As the Scriptures say it was a vision of the kingdom. Moses, and Elijah appeared in glory, it was a vision of what they will be like in the kingdom. That Peter wanted to make tabernacles for them shows that he believed they were men.

 

[Edward]

Well that's a relief.
But that means I don't understand your interpretation of Ephesian 2:4-6. Sorry.

...And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:/(KJV)

So we're in Christ and sitting in Him in Heavenly places...right now you are.

 

[Doulos Iesou]

Unless we were literally at the feet of the cross on that day 2,000 years ago, how can anybody know how Jesus said it. How do we find the very first manuscripts of Luke 23 from 2,000 years ago, the manuscript that Luke himself wrote.

This seems to be an argument that if applied to all texts, renders the Bible useless.

Do we really know what Jesus said to Nicodemus? How can we know for sure since we don't have the original Biblical manuscripts, or were we there to actually witness it.

Maybe he said, "whoever is Jewish will have eternal life," or "whoever works hard enough will have eternal life."

Fortunately this is not the case, not only do we have solid manuscript evidence to corroborate our modern translations, but we have been informed that our sovereign God has directly inspired the writings.

There are no variants in the Luke 23:43 text, and there is no reason to think that it is not an accurate depiction of what Jesus said.

Do you have respect for the Word of God?

 

[Doulos Iesou]

In English we might say,
"Tomorrow I will go to the store to buy eggs." or "I will go to the store to buy eggs tomorrow."

Does the Greek ever put the time at the end of a clause rather than the beginning?

It doesn't matter so much in English, but in the Greek it is almost always at the front. Temporal information communicated in prepositional phrases and subordinate clauses will be found at the end of the clause though.

Does that make sense? Diving a little into the weeds on this one, but it is important to understand the grammar in order to render a proper translation. Hence I disagree with digging.

 

[Edward]

I agree. We need to have some faith here and not question every little thing. The Lord is not the author of confusion, and the Gospel is simple when we have faith and keep our hearts open and humble that we may receive. The Holy Spirit will bear witness with our spirit and reveal the truth to us. The Lord is not going to leave us a bad bible and tell you on judgement day, whoops sorry, you couldn't figure that out, into the fire. If you seek God with all of your heart, you will find Him no matter which translation you read.

 

[Deborah13]

...And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:/(KJV)

So we're in Christ and sitting in Him in Heavenly places...right now you are.

OK
So do you think that our spirit or His spirit is/was in two places at the same time?
The spirit that indwells us, is the Holy Spirit, the Spirit of God.
As a man I think Jesus was/is body, soul, and spirit. We know the Holy Spirit descended on Him.

 

[DRS81]

How can we know for sure since we don't have the original Biblical manuscripts, or were we there to actually witness it.

Isn't it true though that there was no punctuation in the original Greek texts. When the translators translate the passage they have to add a comma.

 

[Doulos Iesou]

Isn't it true though that there was no punctuation in the original Greek texts. When the translators translate the passage they have to add a comma.

This point seems to assume that English grammar and Greek grammar, I already demonstrated with several examples the Greek principle that shows how temporal information is initially positioned in a clause in order to provide the time of the events proceeding in that same clause.

The translators added the punctuation to separate the two clauses.

Do you have any information to contradict what I am presenting, you seem to just try to refute the clear Greek grammar from any possible angle you can.

 

[DRS81]

The translators added the punctuation to separate the two clauses.

If translators added the comma then how can you take that as literal. Translators are flawed men. Jesus is Jesus.

 

[Edward]

OK
So do you think that our spirit or His spirit is/was in two places at the same time?
The spirit that indwells us, is the Holy Spirit, the Spirit of God.
As a man I think Jesus was/is body, soul, and spirit. We know the Holy Spirit descended on Him.

Yes i do think that. i think there is much we do not comprehend about the spiritual realm and spiritual beings that would probably seem very unnatural and foreign to us, but that it is real. I can't tell you how it works and so forth, being only a man myself, but...it makes sense to me.

I read about God translating people around the earth, like Philip away from the Ethiopian, read and hear testimonies of people who have visitations from Jesus, and even keeping in mind that some of them would be fraudulent...all of them can not be. Thinking about how many people that there are on earth...wow, Jesus would have to be able to be in more places than one at a time. Ya' know? Then I read scriptures like this one, and it cliques along the same lines. Then of course Jesus said that all he does, we shall be able to do also, that and more. We were created in Gods image, so...yes, it makes sense to me. not that I understand the hows and so forth, but in faith, but in faith...(and with plenty of sci-fi movies under my belt...why not?

there is much to learn about the spirit realm. Makes sense to me, that in order to 'live for the sprit', one of the first things to do is to learn as much as possible about it. Then receive it in faith.

 

[Butch5]

I believe the answer lies in the word "Paradise" not "today." To my knowledge, nowhere is the Scriptures does the "Paradise" ever mean the underworld" . For some reason, I suspect theological presuppositions, the translators transliterated rather than translated the word "paradeisos" which means garden. If Jesus and the thief went to the garden that day what garden did they go to?

 

[Doulos Iesou]

If translators added the comma then how can you take that as literal. Translators are flawed men. Jesus is Jesus.

Have you listened to anything I have said so far, I've already told you.

 

[Doulos Iesou]

I believe the answer lies in the word "Paradise" not "today." To my knowledge, nowhere is the Scriptures does the "Paradise" ever mean the underworld" . For some reason, I suspect theological presuppositions, the translators transliterated rather than translated the word "paradeisos" which means garden. If Jesus and the thief went to the garden that day what garden did they go to?

No the answer lies in the grammar regarding "today." Theological presuppositions are not what guides the translation here, but rather the Greek fronting of the Temporal frame as I have repeatedly demonstrated.

You also are assuming that this would be a reference to the underworld, but that's not my position at all.

 

[DRS81]

Have you listened to anything I have said so far, I've already told you.

Told me what, please clarify. What post # should I read.

 

[Butch5]

Sure John has a body. You have a body too. But your body is not "you"...Uh, how do you know that Jesus's Spirit was still on earth the day he died? I can't believe that Jesus was giving the thief a feel good pat on the head to comfort him. It may have been comforting to the thief to hear it, but Jesus spoke the truth to him. I think the thief is still with Jesus even now as we chat.

You said you can't believe Jesus was giving him a feel good pat on the head. Let me ask a question. Most Christians says that Paradise is a place in the heart of the earth and some say that it is an area in Hades.The thief asked Jesus to remember him when he came into His kingdom. If Paradise is a place in Hades or the heart of the earth what does that have to do with the question the thief asked?

The thief didn't ask Jesus, where are we going to be later today when we die, he wanted to know if he was going to be in the kingdom. The thief was concerned with the kingdom not where he'd be later that day.

 

[Butch5]

No the answer lies in the grammar regarding "today." Theological presuppositions are not what guides the translation here, but rather the Greek fronting of the Temporal frame as I have repeatedly demonstrated.

If that is the case can you tell me what garden they were in?

You also are assuming that this would be a reference to the underworld, but that's not my position at all.

I'm not assuming, my post was a general post and not to any one person. I have heard many Christians claim that Paradise is in Hades or the heart of the Earth.