Body, Soul, and Spirit

[Deborah13]

It doesn't matter so much in English, but in the Greek it is almost always at the front. Temporal information communicated in prepositional phrases and subordinate clauses will be found at the end of the clause though.

Does that make sense? Diving a little into the weeds on this one, but it is important to understand the grammar in order to render a proper translation. Hence I disagree with digging.

Yes, all languages have rules of grammar.
I took Latin and French in high school, neither one was like English in all ways.

Is there a way in the Greek to give an absolute to the 'he' in Daniel 9:27?
YLT
Dan 9:25 And thou dost know, and dost consider wisely, from the going forth of the word to restore and to build Jerusalem till Messiah the Leader is seven weeks, and sixty and two weeks: the broad place hath been built again, and the rampart, even in the distress of the times.
Dan 9:26 And after the sixty and two weeks, cut off is Messiah, and the city and the holy place are not his, the Leader who hath come doth destroy the people; and its end is with a flood, and till the end is war, determined are desolations.
Dan 9:27 And he hath strengthened a covenant with many--one week, and in the midst of the week he causeth sacrifice and present to cease, and by the wing of abominations he is making desolate, even till the consummation, and that which is determined is poured on the desolate one.'
KJV
Dan 9:25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.
Dan 9:26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.
Dan 9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and

In the KJV, the prince (leader) is in a prepositional phrase but not in the YLT.

 

[Deborah13]

You said you can't believe Jesus was giving him a feel good pat on the head. Let me ask a question. Most Christians says that Paradise is a place in the heart of the earth and some say that it is an area in Hades.The thief asked Jesus to remember him when he came into His kingdom. If Paradise is a place in Hades or the heart of the earth what does that have to do with the question the thief asked?

The thief didn't ask Jesus, where are we going to be later today when we die, he wanted to know if he was going to be in the kingdom. The thief was concerned with the kingdom not where he'd be later that day.

Hi Butch,
I believe....
Yes, he wanted to be included in the Kingdom. So when Jesus responded that he would be with Him in Paradise that had to be at least a part of or somewhere in the Kingdom.

 

[Butch5]

Hi Butch,
I believe....
Yes, he wanted to be included in the Kingdom. So when Jesus responded that he would be with Him in Paradise that had to be at least a part of or somewhere in the Kingdom.

I agree Deb, that is my point. Paradise is the kingdom, not in Hades or the heart of the earth but in the kingdom. This is where I believe Jesus was telling the thief they were going to be.

7 "He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To him who overcomes I will give to eat from the tree of life, which is in the midst of the Paradise of God."' (Rev 2:7 NKJ)

However, I don't believe they went there that day. This is Paradise of God wherein is the tree of life, in other words this is the garden of Eden. Paradise means a garden, Eden is a garden. God is going to restore everything and that includes the garden.

 

[Deborah13]

Told me what, please clarify. What post # should I read.

I don't know which post it is in but this is how I understand what Doulos Iesou is teaching.

If He was just telling the thief that someday he would be with Him in Paradise in the Greek it would read,
"Today I say to you, you will be......"
See where the comma is at the end of the first clause.
But He didn't.
"I say to you, today you will be...."

In the Greek language, time is at the beginning of the clause that it is assigned to. So in this verse....
Because of where the word 'today' was placed in the sentence it has to go with and in the clause that follows it.

 

[Edward]

You said you can't believe Jesus was giving him a feel good pat on the head. Let me ask a question. Most Christians says that Paradise is a place in the heart of the earth and some say that it is an area in Hades.The thief asked Jesus to remember him when he came into His kingdom. If Paradise is a place in Hades or the heart of the earth what does that have to do with the question the thief asked?

The thief didn't ask Jesus, where are we going to be later today when we die, he wanted to know if he was going to be in the kingdom. The thief was concerned with the kingdom not where he'd be later that day.

Because of the way that Jesus answered the thief. Jesus is the one that brought the term paradise into the discussion with the thief, not I.

I would think that the thief died on his own cross, and then immediately went to the paradise portion of hades, where the section for believers were. One section was for believers, the other section was for fallen Angels and non-believers. Here is an article discussing the finer points of Hades and the section called paradise.

http://www.letusreason.org/Doct19.htm

 

[Deborah13]

I agree Deb, that is my point. Paradise is the kingdom, not in Hades or the heart of the earth but in the kingdom. This is where I believe Jesus was telling the thief they were going to be.

7 "He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To him who overcomes I will give to eat from the tree of life, which is in the midst of the Paradise of God."' (Rev 2:7 NKJ)

However, I don't believe they went there that day. This is Paradise of God wherein is the tree of life, in other words this is the garden of Eden. Paradise means a garden, Eden is a garden. God is going to restore everything and that includes the garden.

If we assume the two verses are talking about the same place then I can see what you are saying as far as the place goes and thinking it is future. But that word 'paradise' in the Hebrew and the Greek both are defined as ( a park, a forest, a garden, a place of happiness) so they don't have to be the same place but both can be in the Kingdom.
And because of the grammar I have to stick with my original reading that they were going there that very same day.
The other reading is just very awkward for an English translation.

 

[Butch5]

Because of the way that Jesus answered the thief. Jesus is the one that brought the term paradise into the discussion with the thief, not I.

I would think that the thief died on his own cross, and then immediately went to the paradise portion of hades, where the section for believers were. One section was for believers, the other section was for fallen Angels and non-believers. Here is an article discussing the finer points of Hades and the section called paradise.

http://www.letusreason.org/Doct19.htm

Hi Edward,

That's my point. Paradise means a garden not a place in Hades. The idea that Paradise is a place in Hades comes from the presupposition that the dead are somehow alive. To my knowledge, in the Scriptures Paradise never refers a place in Hades.

 

[Butch5]

If we assume the two verses are talking about the same place then I can see what you are saying as far as the place goes and thinking it is future. But that word 'paradise' in the Hebrew and the Greek both are defined as ( a park, a forest, a garden, a place of happiness) so they don't have to be the same place but both can be in the Kingdom.
And because of the grammar I have to stick with my original reading that they were going there that very same day.
The other reading is just very awkward for an English translation.

It's my understanding that the comma is correct either before or after the word today. I know Doulos disagrees with this, however, I have heard this from people who translate the Scriptures. I don't think saying the thief was in the garden that very day fits with the Scriptures. As I said in the other post, the thief was't concerned with where he would be that day, he was concerned with entering the kingdom. The kingdom isn't here yet so I don't know how the thief could have entered it. The thief wanted to enter the kingdom, I don't think the kingdom is in Hades.

 

[DRS81]

I don't know which post it is in but this is how I understand what Doulos Iesou is teaching.

If He was just telling the thief that someday he would be with Him in Paradise in the Greek it would read,
"Today I say to you, you will be......"
See where the comma is at the end of the first clause.
But He didn't.
"I say to you, today you will be...."

In the Greek language, time is at the beginning of the clause that it is assigned to. So in this verse....
Because of where the word 'today' was placed in the sentence it has to go with and in the clause that follows it.

But there was no punctuation in the original Greek texts. When the translators translate the passage they have to add a comma, and translators are flawed men.

 

[Deborah13]

But there was no punctuation in the original Greek texts. When the translators translate the passage they have to add a comma, and translators are flawed men.

It's NOT the comma that tells us what is being said, it is the placement of the word 'today'.
Take out the comma and it still means the same thing.
KJV
Luk 23:43 And Jesus said unto him Verily I say unto thee To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.

I took out the commas. Now because of Greek grammar rules......
To day goes with all the words Following the word to day. So start reading from To day........

 

[DRS81]

So start reading from To day........

No it doesn't mean the same thing.
This is a complete sentence, you can't just start in the middle.
Start reading from the word JESUS. Now what do you see??

Luke 23:43 Jesus answered him Truly I tell you today you will be with me in paradise.

 

[Deborah13]

No it doesn't mean the same thing.
This is a complete sentence, you can't just start in the middle.
Start reading from the word JESUS. Now what do you see??

Luke 23:43 Jesus answered him Truly I tell you today you will be with me in paradise.

I see that same thing I always have but now I'm more confident that it is the correct reading.
All languages have grammar rules, in this case Greek rules.

 

[DRS81]

I see that same thing I always have but now I'm more confident that it is the correct reading.
All languages have grammar rules, in this case Greek rules.

What grammar rules and Greek rules are you talking about. I'm referring to the original manuscripts here. The ancient Greeks did not have any equivalent to our modern device of punctuation. Sentence punctuation was invented several centuries after the time of Christ. The oldest copies of both the Greek New Testament and the Hebrew Old Testament are written with no punctuation. In addition, the ancient Greeks used no spaces between words or paragraphs. Texts were a continuous string of letters, with an occasional blank line inserted to mark the end of a major section, though even this was not always done. So how are you seeing the same thing? - DRS81

 

[Deborah13]

What grammar rules and Greek rules are you talking about. I'm referring to the original manuscripts here. The ancient Greeks did not have any equivalent to our modern device of punctuation. Sentence punctuation was invented several centuries after the time of Christ. The oldest copies of both the Greek New Testament and the Hebrew Old Testament are written with no punctuation. In addition, the ancient Greeks used no spaces between words or paragraphs. Texts were a continuous string of letters, with an occasional blank line inserted to mark the end of a major section, though even this was not always done. So how are you seeing the same thing? - DRS81

Grammar rules. Check it out......and learn there are rules that have nothing to do with punctuation.

http://ntgreek.org/learn_nt_greek/grkindex.htm

 

[DRS81]

Grammar rules. Check it out......and learn there are rules that have nothing to do with punctuation.

http://ntgreek.org/learn_nt_greek/grkindex.htm

What have you learned from this website about Luke 23:43.

 

[Deborah13]

What have you learned from this website about Luke 23:43.

I never tried to do any study on that verse in the Greek, it appeared to be very clear to me. But I have studied other verses using that site.
Now Doulos has studied Greek, if you don't believe him about this rule, I suggest that you find out if he's right rather than keep insisting that no rules of Greek grammar exist.

 

[DRS81]

I never tried to do any study on that verse in the Greek, it appeared to be very clear to me. But I have studied other verses using that site.
Now Doulos has studied Greek, if you don't believe him about this rule, I suggest that you find out if he's right rather than keep insisting that no rules of Greek grammar exist.

43 And Jesus said to him, "Assuredly, I say to you, today you will be with Me in Paradise." (Luk 23:43)

43 And Jesus said to him, "Assuredly, I say to you today, you will be with Me in Paradise." (Luk 23:43)

By moving the comma you change the meaning of the sentence. The first one says that Jesus would be with the thief in Paradise that day, the second doesn't. In the second Jesus is saying, I say to you today. In other words Jesus is adding emphasis to the statement that the thief would be in Paradise.

I think what's really important in this passage is the word Paradise, the translators transliterated the word "paradeisos" instead of translating it. I suspect this is translator bias. The Greek word translated Paradise means a garden, it is used of Eden. It is used in the Septuagint quite a bit, however, that idea doesn't fit the conventional idea of where the thief went and that I believe is why it was transliterated rather than translated. Literally in the passage Jesus said you will be with me in the garden.

Many overlook the context when addressing this passage. What did the thief ask? Did he ask Jesus, Jesus where are we going to be later today when we die? No, he wasn't concerned about that, his question was that he asked Jesus to remember him when Jesus came into His kingdom. The thief's concern was not about his death but rather whether or not he'd be in the kingdom. Jesus answered his question by saying you will be with me in paradise, (the garden). Why the garden? It's the kingdom. Before the fall Adam walked with God. Adam had access to the Tree of Life. Notice what Jesus said to the believers in the church at Ephesus.

7 "He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To him who overcomes I will give to eat from the tree of life, which is in the midst of the Paradise of God."' (Rev 2:7 NKJ)

Jesus said to those who overcome He would give to eat from the tree of Life which is in the midst of the Paradise of God. This is where Jesus was telling the thief that he was going to be. He would have access to the tree of life in the garden.

This is the answer to the thief. Telling him where he would be the day he died was not what he wanted to know, he wanted to be in the kingdom, Jesus answered his question.

Some people will say that if the passage reads, I tell you today, it's redundant, of course Jesus was saying it that day. They say there's no reason to tell the thief that He is saying it that day, the thief already knows that. However, by adding the word today Jesus is adding emphasis to His statement. The thief is dying that day and so was Jesus, there wouldn't be another chances to ask. The thief doesn't know where he is going and whether or not he'll be in the kingdom. Rather than making him wait Jesus rendered His judgment right there on the cross telling the thief, I say to you today, you will be with me in paradise. The thief can die in peace knowing that he will be in the kingdom when that day comes.

 

[DRS81]

Deborah13 Jesus emphasized the word today because Jesus telling the thief you will be with me in Paradise was an (act of love). It gave the thief peace of mind and comfort so he can die in peace. Jesus judged him right there on the cross. The thief repented and became born again right there when he was dying. Why did Jesus judge him there? Because Jesus is a merciful God, to give the thief peace of mind and comfort before taking his last breath. Luke 23:43 Jesus answered him, “Truly I tell you TODAY, you will be with me in paradise.” Peace of mind and comfort.

 

[JLB]

The passage says nothing about them being in the spirit. As the Scriptures say it was a vision of the kingdom. Moses, and Elijah appeared in glory, it was a vision of what they will be like in the kingdom. That Peter wanted to make tabernacles for them shows that he believed they were men.

It was a vision in that those who were in the natural world who were seeing with natural eyes were allowed to glimpse the spirit world to see the specific truth of Moses and Elijah speaking with Jesus.

Your interpretation makes the vision somehow "not true" in that Moses and Elijah did not appear to Jesus and did not speak with Jesus at that time, but somehow in the future.

The truth is Moses and Elijah appeared to Jesus, and Peter saw them and recognized them even though they had never met.

Here is another example of this type of spiritual operation whereby those who were present were given the ability to see into the realm of the spirit. A Vision.

15 And when the servant of the man of God arose early and went out, there was an army, surrounding the city with horses and chariots. And his servant said to him, "Alas, my master! What shall we do?" 16 So he answered, "Do not fear, for those who are with us are more than those who are with them." 17 And Elisha prayed, and said, "Lord, I pray, open his eyes that he may see." Then the Lord opened the eyes of the young man, and he saw. And behold, the mountain was full of horses and chariots of fire all around Elisha. 18 So when the Syrians came down to him, Elisha prayed to the Lord, and said, "Strike this people, I pray, with blindness." And He struck them with blindness according to the word of Elisha. 2 Kings 6:15-18

and again -

This is what king Hezekiah told the people when the Assyrian came upon the children of Israel, though they did not see, yet Hezekia knew by faith.

6 Then he set military captains over the people, gathered them together to him in the open square of the city gate, and gave them encouragement, saying, 7 "Be strong and courageous; do not be afraid nor dismayed before the king of Assyria, nor before all the multitude that is with him; for there are more with us than with him. 8 With him is an arm of flesh; but with us is the Lord our God, to help us and to fight our battles." And the people were strengthened by the words of Hezekiah king of Judah. 2 Chronicles 32:6-8


Moses and Elijah were in the spirit and not in the flesh, yet they spoke with Jesus, just like Abraham spoke to the rich man.


JLB

 

[Butch5]

It was a vision in that those who were in the natural world who were seeing with natural eyes were allowed to glimpse the spirit world to see the specific truth of Moses and Elijah speaking with Jesus.

Your interpretation makes the vision somehow "not true" in that Moses and Elijah did not appear to Jesus and did not speak with Jesus at that time, but somehow in the future.

The truth is Moses and Elijah appeared to Jesus, and Peter saw them and recognized them even though they had never met.

Here is another example of this type of spiritual operation whereby those who were present were given the ability to see into the realm of the spirit. A Vision.

15 And when the servant of the man of God arose early and went out, there was an army, surrounding the city with horses and chariots. And his servant said to him, "Alas, my master! What shall we do?" 16 So he answered, "Do not fear, for those who are with us are more than those who are with them." 17 And Elisha prayed, and said, "Lord, I pray, open his eyes that he may see." Then the Lord opened the eyes of the young man, and he saw. And behold, the mountain was full of horses and chariots of fire all around Elisha. 18 So when the Syrians came down to him, Elisha prayed to the Lord, and said, "Strike this people, I pray, with blindness." And He struck them with blindness according to the word of Elisha. 2 Kings 6:15-18

and again -

This is what king Hezekiah told the people when the Assyrian came upon the children of Israel, though they did not see, yet Hezekia knew by faith.

6 Then he set military captains over the people, gathered them together to him in the open square of the city gate, and gave them encouragement, saying, 7 "Be strong and courageous; do not be afraid nor dismayed before the king of Assyria, nor before all the multitude that is with him; for there are more with us than with him. 8 With him is an arm of flesh; but with us is the Lord our God, to help us and to fight our battles." And the people were strengthened by the words of Hezekiah king of Judah. 2 Chronicles 32:6-8


Moses and Elijah were in the spirit and not in the flesh, yet they spoke with Jesus, just like Abraham spoke to the rich man.


JLB

JLB,

It's not a glimpse into spiritual realm. I've posted the appropriate passages. Moses and Elijah appeared "in glory", that is a reference to the resurrection, they were in resurrected form

30 And behold, two men talked with Him, who were Moses and Elijah,
31 who appeared in glory and spoke of His decease which He was about to accomplish at Jerusalem. (Luk 9:30-31 NKJ)

40 There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another.
41 There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory.
42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:
43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:
44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
(1Co 15:40-44 KJV)

They saw a vision of the resurrected Moses and Elijah.