Crushing the Spirit of grace under foot?

[gr8grace3]

"...Christ Jesus, 14 who gave Himself for us to redeem us from every lawless deed, and to purify for Himself a people for His own possession, zealous for good deeds. 15 These things speak and exhort and reprove with all authority. Let no one disregard you." (Titus 2:13-15 NASB)


Don't misunderstand. I'm not talking about the official doctrine of some of these churches. I'm talking about what actually happens in the lives of believers. What we watch on TV and approve of is a very good example. Another one...you don't have to be legally married to be considered married. IOW, cohabitation is a growing practice of professing Christians.

I live in the Bible belt. It's amazing how drinking is so acceptable to even these staunch Bible churches. Again, not as a matter of official church doctrine, but in what they privately approve of and champion, some of whom do actually practice what they so excitedly approve of. I won't get into the tobacco issue.

We are what we are by the Grace of God.

It is between God and the man on what he watches on tv.

Where in the bible does it say we have to be "legally" married? It says one man one woman. You go outside of that, and you are outside of the bible.

Where in the bible does it say," do not drink ANY alcohol?"

Where in the bible does it say," thou shalt not use tobacco?"

For the believer, it is between God and the Believer on what he approves or does not approve. It is none of our business.

 

[gr8grace3]

How do you get convicted about the Son if you don't first know what the sin is that he came to forgive?

Here's the gospel that few are hearing in the church today:

"13 "But the tax collector, standing some distance away,was even unwilling to lift up his eyes to heaven, but was beating his breast, saying, 'God, be merciful to me, the sinner!' 14 "I tell you, this man went to his house justified..." (Luke 18:13-14 NASB)

It seems the gospel is all about personal achievement instead of personal holiness these days. Holiness, when it is talked about, is just a stepping stone to that personal achievement. Speaking generally, of course.

We do not know what sin is until we see the Son. We still have a hard time seeing what sin really is even after years of being in the Son.

 

[Willie T]

Everything starts with a knowledge and a conviction of evil. But I suppose if you stay there and don't move into grace you will certainly not become 'Son conscious'. But this hardly means we don't start with a knowledge of sin in bringing people to the grace of salvation, right?

I think what you're resisting is the incomplete teaching about sin and salvation. I agree that this incomplete teaching about sin and salvation and holy living is not going to help the 1 out of 2 CHRISTIAN men who have viewed pornography in the last year (slightly higher percentage for PASTORS).

Can you enumerate the incidences in which Jesus pointed out the sins of serious seekers, instead of simply pointing them in the necessary direction?

 

[Jethro Bodine]

It is between God and the man on what he watches on tv.

I agree, but that hardly means it's okay to watch what you want.

Where in the bible does it say we have to be "legally" married? It says one man one woman. You go outside of that, and you are outside of the bible.

Jesus pointed out to the sinful woman at the well that she was not married to the man she was with. Understand the point?

Where in the bible does it say," do not drink ANY alcohol?"

It doesn't. I was referring to how drinking beer, even in excess, is so championed by these so-called traditional Bible belt believers. It's not the drinking itself (except in the case of excess). It's how exalted and praised it is in this society.

Where in the bible does it say," thou shalt not use tobacco?"

It doesn't, but when you see believers making the mad dash to the parking lot to get their long awaited smoke in after church, that doesn't jibe with the church's boast of the power of God. It's a lousy witness to see believers in bondage to substances and things and accepting it as 'ok'. Bondage is one thing. Actively seeking to be set free from it through the grace of God is quite another. I don't see much of the latter in the church these days. I see excuses....excuses based on an erroneous understanding of what God's grace is.

For the believer, it is between God and the Believer on what he approves or does not approve. It is none of our business.

I disagree with this. (Edited, Obadiah)

Especially here in the Bible belt, the main purpose of the church here is to get people saved. But we drive a nail in the great boast of God's grace in overcoming sin and being saved on the day of Judgment through God's grace that we teach when believers choose to parade their approval of addictions and bondage to things and lack of seriousness about those things before unbelievers by not working them out, and working them out between them and God.

I once went to a house church run by a family. The stench of tobacco was so bad in the house that I thought, "how are these people going to be a guide and a help to me, or anyone else, to finding the grace of God to overcome sin and please him and serve him and be what Christ died to make us? They haven't even accomplished that in their own lives!"

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Can you enumerate the incidences in which Jesus pointed out the sins of serious seekers, instead of simply pointing them in the necessary direction?

He pointed out the incidences of the HYPOCRITES. The exact point I'm trying to make.

 

[Willie T]

How did you get the idea that we had to overcome sin to please God?

 

[Deborah13]

Everything starts with a knowledge and a conviction of evil. But I suppose if you stay there and don't move into grace you will certainly not become 'Son conscious'. But this hardly means we don't start with a knowledge of sin in bringing people to the grace of salvation, right?

I think what you're resisting is the incomplete teaching about sin and salvation. I agree that this incomplete teaching about sin and salvation and holy living is not going to help the 1 out of 2 CHRISTIAN men who have viewed pornography in the last year (slightly higher percentage for PASTORS).

Excuse me. Maybe sin consciousness is where it began for you. But not for everyone and that is not what the Word says.
KJV
1Jn 4:18 There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in love.
1Jn 4:19 We love him, because he first loved us.

It is the knowledge of His grace and love for us that brings one to true repentance.
There is one sin the Holy Spirit convicts the unbeliever of....
Joh 16:8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:
Joh 16:9 Of sin, because they believe not on me;

imo.
It is all about Him, what He did, and continues to do as our mediator. This knowledge of Him is the gospel message, the good news, that brings one to repentance out of gratefulness and a humble heart.

 

[gr8grace3]

I agree, but that hardly means it's okay to watch what you want.


Jesus pointed out to the sinful woman at the well that she was not married to the man she was with. Understand the point?



It doesn't. I was referring to how drinking beer, even in excess, is so championed by these so-called traditional Bible belt believers. It's not the drinking itself (except in the case of excess). It's how exalted and praised it is in this society.


It doesn't, but when you see believers making the mad dash to the parking lot to get their long awaited smoke in after church, that doesn't jibe with the church's boast of the power of God. It's a lousy witness to see believers in bondage to substances and things and accepting it as 'ok'. Bondage is one thing. Actively seeking to be set free from it through the grace of God is quite another. I don't see much of the latter in the church these days. I see excuses....excuses based on an erroneous understanding of what God's grace is.


I disagree with this. (Edited, Obadiah)

Especially here in the Bible belt, the main purpose of the church here is to get people saved. But we drive a nail in the great boast of God's grace in overcoming sin and being saved on the day of Judgment through God's grace that we teach when believers choose to parade their approval of addictions and bondage to things and lack of seriousness about those things before unbelievers by not working them out, and working them out between them and God.

I once went to a house church run by a family. The stench of tobacco was so bad in the house that I thought, "how are these people going to be a guide and a help to me, or anyone else, to finding the grace of God to overcome sin and please him and serve him and be what Christ died to make us? They haven't even accomplished that in their own lives!"

The Key here is you can't overcome your sin. And when you realize that, you are well on your way to knowing the Son.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

The Key here is you can't overcome your sin. And when you realize that, you are well on your way to knowing the Son.

Why do you only hear 'overcome' with the connotation of self effort minus the grace of God?

We have a responsibility to bring forth the fruit of the kingdom. And we do that through the grace of God which, as Paul says, teaches us to do that. Grace doesn't teach us to stay in our defeated state and accept it as such because we have grace.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Excuse me. Maybe sin consciousness is where it began for you. But not for everyone and that is not what the Word says.
KJV
1Jn 4:18 There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in love.
1Jn 4:19 We love him, because he first loved us.

Excuse me (lol), John is talking about the mature place in Christ we come to: This place where love is perfected. We start out in fear...fear of punishment for the sin we have committed.

"10 The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom..." (Proverbs 9:10 NASB)

Nothing wrong with that, it's just that there is a better place from which we will eventually serve God--the perfection of his love within us. John is telling us love is the end game of wisdom and understanding. We start out in the wisdom of the fear of God (nothing wrong with that). But love for God is where God wants us to end up, serving him even more effectively from that motivation.

It is the knowledge of His grace and love for us that brings one to true repentance.
There is one sin the Holy Spirit convicts the unbeliever of....
Joh 16:8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:
Joh 16:9 Of sin, because they believe not on me;

(Red emphasis in quote mine)
One sin only? God never convicts unbelievers of their adulteries, and their thefts, and their lying in order to have mercy on them?

imo.
It is all about Him, what He did, and continues to do as our mediator. This knowledge of Him is the gospel message, the good news, that brings one to repentance out of gratefulness and a humble heart.

Of course it's all about him. Nothing happens without him. Can you relate that to what we're talking about here? Did someone suggest it isn't all about him?

 

[Jethro Bodine]

How did you get the idea that we had to overcome sin to please God?

Yeah, I know, weird huh, hahahaha.

 

[DRS81]

Gill's commentary is wrong to equate Heb 10:29 with denying the deity of the Son of God. We are specifically told what the transgression is in verse 29.

Heb 10:29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?​

We trample on Yeshua by rejecting his shed blood on our behalf. That occurs after a person receives Yeshua as his Savior and atoning sacrifice, but later rejects him as such. When we believe, but later renounce him as our Master and Savior, we are rejecting his shed blood for our sins. We trample on it and him. We reject that blood's sanctifying effect and no longer consider it holy. It ties into verse 26 because it is a wilful sin of unbelief.

I believe Gill's commentary is spot on.
I also believe they were sanctifying themselves through animal sacrifice and animal blood.
This is referring to religious ceremonies and not grace salvation.

Gill's Exposition of the Entire Bible - http://biblehub.com/hebrews/10-29.htm
and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing; or "common thing"; putting it upon a level with the blood of a bullock, or at most counting it , "as that of another man"; as the Syriac version renders it; yea, reckoning it as unclean and abominable, as the blood of a very wicked man: this is aggravated by its being "the blood of the covenant"; of the covenant of grace, because that is ratified and confirmed by it, and the blessings of it come through it; and from sanctification by it: either of the person, the apostate himself, who was sanctified or separated from others by a visible profession of religion; having given himself up to a church, to walk with it in the ordinances of the Gospel; and having submitted to baptism, and partook of the Lord's supper, and drank of the cup, "the blood of the New Testament", or "covenant": though he did not spiritually discern the body and blood of Christ in the ordinance, but counted the bread and wine, the symbols of them, as common things; or who professed himself, and was looked upon by others, to be truly sanctified by the Spirit, and to be justified by the blood of Christ, though he was not really so: or rather the Son of God himself is meant, who was sanctified, set apart, hallowed, and consecrated, as Aaron and his sons were sanctified by the sacrifices of slain beasts, to minister in the priest's office: so Christ, when he had offered himself, and shed his precious blood, by which the covenant of grace was ratified, by the same blood he was brought again from the dead, and declared to be the Son of God with power; and being set down at God's right hand, he ever lives to make intercession, which is the other part of his priestly office he is sanctified by his own blood to accomplish. This clause, "wherewith he was sanctified", is left out in the Alexandrian copy:

 

[Deborah13]

Excuse me (lol), John is talking about the mature place in Christ we come to: This place where love is perfected. We start out in fear...fear of punishment for the sin we have committed.

"10 The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom..." (Proverbs 9:10 NASB)

Nothing wrong with that, it's just that there is a better place from which we will eventually serve God--the perfection of his love within us. John is telling us love is the end game of wisdom and understanding. We start out in the wisdom of the fear of God (nothing wrong with that). But love for God is where God wants us to end up, serving him even more effectively from that motivation.

(Red emphasis in quote mine)
One sin only? God never convicts unbelievers of their adulteries, and their thefts, and their lying in order to have mercy on them?

Jesus said those words.
The Holy Spirit convicts the WORLD unbelievers of what? Not believing in Him.
Of RIGHTEOUSNESS, His righteousness, which is what righteousness looks like. When we look at HIS righteousness we see that we are not righteous, we see that the things we do are not righteous.

Please address verse 4:19, "We love Him because He first loved us."

Rom 5:5 And hope maketh not ashamed; because the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us.
Rom 5:6 For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly.

This is the foundation of the Gospel message that Paul preached.
No one can repent (change their mind about sin) until they repent (change their mind) about Christ.

Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
Joh 3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

I knew a man once, who when he professed Christ he stopped smoking ciggs. and never touched another drop of any kind of alcohol as long as I knew him. But in the weightier things of loving others as we love ourselves he had no understanding or actions.
When he witnessed to others about Christ he preached hell fire and damnation. But behind closed doors he said, I quote, "Jesus was stupid to die for us."
He had no understanding of a love so great that one would die for those who may never love Him in return.

Of course it's all about him. Nothing happens without him. Can you relate that to what we're talking about here? Did someone suggest it isn't all about him?

 

[Willie T]

Yeah, I know, weird huh, hahahaha.

No, just sad.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I believe Gill's commentary is spot on.
I also believe they were sanctifying themselves through animal sacrifice and animal blood.
This is referring to religious ceremonies and not grace salvation.

Okay, if the blood that is being trodden underfoot is the blood of bulls and goats, why will anyone--believer, or unbeliever--be punished for doing that in this New Covenant? How is that an 'insult to the Spirit of grace'?

"29 How much severer punishment do you think he will deserve who has trampled under foot the Son of God, and has regarded as unclean the blood of the covenant (you say this means the blood of animals) by which he was sanctified, and has insulted the Spirit of grace? 30 For we know Him who said, "VENGEANCE IS MINE, I WILL REPAY." And again, "THE LORD WILL JUDGE HIS PEOPLE." (Hebrews 10:29-30 NASB parenthesis mine)

Obviously, the blood that is being trodden underfoot is the blood of Christ. And it is that blood that the author says they were sanctified by, and which they will be punished for trampling under foot.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

No, just sad.

Let's start here:

21 "He who has My commandments and keeps them is the one who loves Me; and he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and will disclose Myself to him." (John 14:21 NASB)

10 "If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love; just as I have kept My Father's commandments and abide in His love." (John 14:10 NASB)

The one who loves Christ is the one who is loved by His Father. And the one who loves Christ is the one who keeps his commands. But many in the church insist that God loves you, meaning he is pleased with you simply because you are saved, whether you are disobedient, or not. Now God does love every believer, but his manifest pleasure is only in those who obey him.

Paul tells us walking in the fruit of goodness, righteousness, and truth is what it means to please the Lord:

"15 Therefore be careful how you walk, not as unwise men but as wise, 16 making the most of your time, because the days are evil.17 So then do not be foolish, but understand what the will of the Lord is." (Ephesians 5:15-17 NASB)

"8 ...for you were formerly darkness, but now you are Light in the Lord; walk as children of Light 9 (for the fruit of the Light consists in all goodness and righteousness and truth ), 10 trying to learn what is pleasing to the Lord. " (Ephesians 5:8-10 NASB)

 

[jocor]

I believe Gill's commentary is spot on.

To equate denying the deity of Christ with "and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing" is like equating denying the Savior is the Son of man with "and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing" . The one has absolutely nothing to do with the other. The issue is the blood, not theology or any other issue. The only way to truly consider Yeshua's blood unholy and unable to sanctify, after having received those truths, is by renouncing him.

 

[jocor]

Excuse me. Maybe sin consciousness is where it began for you. But not for everyone and that is not what the Word says.
KJV
1Jn 4:18 There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in love.
1Jn 4:19 We love him, because he first loved us.

It is the knowledge of His grace and love for us that brings one to true repentance.
There is one sin the Holy Spirit convicts the unbeliever of....
Joh 16:8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:
Joh 16:9 Of sin, because they believe not on me;

imo.
It is all about Him, what He did, and continues to do as our mediator. This knowledge of Him is the gospel message, the good news, that brings one to repentance out of gratefulness and a humble heart.

Gal 3:22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Yeshua the Messiah might be given to them that believe.
Gal 3:23 But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.
Gal 3:24 Wherefore the law was our guardian to bring us unto the Messiah, that we might be justified by faith.​

It is the law, in particular, the transgression of it (sin) and its ensuing bondage, that brings us to Messiah for deliverance and justification. He died so our sins could be cleansed/forgiven and so we could be made righteous/justified. That is the primary reason one would receive Yeshua as Savior (IMHO).

 

[jocor]

Heb 10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,​

In other words, if we receive the truth that the sacrifice of Yeshua is for the remission of sins, but later reject that truth by renouncing Yeshua and his sacrificial blood, then we no longer have a sacrifice for our sins. We become an adversary of Yeshua and will live the rest of our lives fearing our coming judgment.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Gal 3:22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Yeshua the Messiah might be given to them that believe.
Gal 3:23 But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.
Gal 3:24 Wherefore the law was our guardian to bring us unto the Messiah, that we might be justified by faith.​

It is the law, in particular, the transgression of it (sin) and its ensuing bondage, that brings us to Messiah for deliverance and justification. He died so our sins could be cleansed/forgiven and so we could be made righteous/justified. That is the primary reason one would receive Yeshua as Savior (IMHO).

Yes.

"I would not have come to know sin except through the Law; for I would not have known about coveting if the Law had not said, "YOU SHALL NOT COVET." (Romans 7:7 NASB caps in original)

13"But the tax collector, standing some distance away,was even unwilling to lift up his eyes to heaven, but was beating his breast, saying, 'God, be merciful to me, the sinner!' " (Luke 18:13 NASB)