Crushing the Spirit of grace under foot?

[jocor]

No, they can't jocor. We're only believing once here..

Correct. We have one opportunity to believe. If we later choose to disbelieve, there is no second chance to believe.

Rom 10:9 If you declare with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. (NIV)

If we die no longer believing that, we will be lost.

Heb 13:5 Keep your lives free from the love of money and be content with what you have, because God has said, "Never will I leave you; never will I forsake you." (NIV)

He will not leave us, but we can leave Him. By doing so, we will be cut off the natural olive tree that we were grafted onto.

Rom 11:20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
Rom 11:21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
Rom 11:22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off. ​

If we do not continue to believe, we will be cut off through unbelief.

Eph 1:13-14 And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, 14who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of his glory. (NIV)

This guarantee is contingent upon us continuing to believe.

35 "But those who are counted worthy to attain that age, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry nor are given in marriage;
36 "nor can they die anymore, for they are equal to the angels and are sons of God, being sons of the resurrection. (Luke 20:35-36 NKJ)

This takes place after one's resurrection unto eternal life and has no bearing on this topic.

John 3:18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God's one and only Son. (NIV) - Whoever believes in his name.

If a believer no longer believes, but renounces Yeshua, he stands condemned.

Rom 8:33-39 Who will bring any charge against those whom God has chosen? It is God who justifies. 34Who then is the one who condemns? No one. Christ Jesus who died—more than that, who was raised to life—is at the right hand of God and is also interceding for us. 35Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall trouble or hardship or persecution or famine or nakedness or danger or sword? 36As it is written:

“For your sake we face death all day long;

we are considered as sheep to be slaughtered.”

37No, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him who loved us. 38For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, 39neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord. (NIV)

None of those things that are outside of us can separate us from the love of God. We, however, of our own free will can separate ourselves from God through unbelief.

Heb 3:12 Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.​

 

[DRS81]

jocor - But this says that neither present nor the future will separate us from God's love.

Rom 8:31-39

What, then, shall we say in response to these things? If God is for us, who can be against us? 32He who did not spare his own Son, but gave him up for us all—how will he not also, along with him, graciously give us all things? 33Who will bring any charge against those whom God has chosen? It is God who justifies. 34Who then is the one who condemns? No one. Christ Jesus who died—more than that, who was raised to life—is at the right hand of God and is also interceding for us. 35Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall trouble or hardship or persecution or famine or nakedness or danger or sword? 36As it is written:

“For your sake we face death all day long;

we are considered as sheep to be slaughtered.”j

37No, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him who loved us. 38For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, 39neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord

 

[JLB]

jocor - But this says that neither present nor the future will separate us from God's love.

Rom 8:31-39

What, then, shall we say in response to these things? If God is for us, who can be against us? 32He who did not spare his own Son, but gave him up for us all—how will he not also, along with him, graciously give us all things? 33Who will bring any charge against those whom God has chosen? It is God who justifies. 34Who then is the one who condemns? No one. Christ Jesus who died—more than that, who was raised to life—is at the right hand of God and is also interceding for us. 35Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall trouble or hardship or persecution or famine or nakedness or danger or sword? 36As it is written:

“For your sake we face death all day long;

we are considered as sheep to be slaughtered.”j

37No, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him who loved us. 38For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, 39neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord

As long as you are in Christ Jesus then then applies to you.

If you are are spit out or cast out or blotted out, then this promise would not apply to you.


JLB

 

[Deborah13]

Your experience is different than mine. I repented before I heard the gospel (tried to anyway, lol).

Along with knowing I was a sinner (according to the Ten C's) I knew that I was condemned because of that sin (many argue that their sin, when they learn about it, should not, and does not condemn them). I knew in my heart that I could not continue in my sin and expect to go to be with God when I died. So I set out to try to stop sinning--I repented. Well, every time I turned to God in repentance it only lasted to 10:00 in the morning, lol. Which only increased the weight of my condemnation. In time I realized I can't get from here to there.

Then I started listening to a Preacher who taught that this God who I wanted to make peace with wanted to help me, not condemn me. He taught about being in relationship with God instead of trying to relate to God through the effort of 'religion'. And that how you come into that relationship is to throw yourself on the mercy of God and admit you are condemned by your sin and can't do anything about it. Finally, after listening to him for about six months, I did that. I was changed right then and there. I was a new person. I've been growing up into that new person ever since.

I think it's because I had this dramatic salvation experience that I'm well rooted in faith. I know there are other believers who don't have this kind of a salvation experience, the experience of the tax collector who comes to God in the desperation of the condemnation he can do nothing about (Luke 18:13-14 NASB).

You know I think most Christians do have that kind of experience it just may happen after they are saved. They may be battling an addiction or something else they just can't seem to overcome and they turn to God realizing they just can't get where they know they need to be without His intervention.
Now I'm not sure our experiences were so different. I was looking for God long before I was saved. All the people I knew who I thought were close to God were Catholic and so that's where I went. I was baptisted in the the Catholic church, attended mass regularly, my two oldest children where baptisted there, I even said the rosary, but did not find Him there. I never heard the gospel message. After a year or so, I just quit going there. It wasn't until about 5 yrs. later that I heard the gospel and everything changed.
I just think our reason's for believing were different. Maybe it's because I'm a woman or because of my childhood but for me it was all about His love for me. That He actually died so that I could live.

 

[for_his_glory]

Salvation means to be whole mind, body and soul as we surrender our will to God and allow his will to work in our lives by applying Gods word to every aspect of our lives. This allows us to know the mind of Christ and all the promises of God for our own well-being so we can face anything that tries to come against us while here on this earth so we can triumph and be victorious through the grace and mercy of our Lord and Savior Christ Jesus. Grace pardons us and mercy loves us unconditionally, but grace does not give us a license to sin. Our flesh will always sin because the flesh is never in obedience to God.

John 9:31 Now we know that God heareth not sinners: but if any man be a worshiper of God, and doeth his will, him he heareth.
Romans 8:6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
Romans 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
Romans 8:8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

Sin separates us from God because God is a spirit and can only recognize his own children by what spirit is living in their hearts. We have to renew, rebirth - born again, Gods Spirit within us in order to be called a child of God and see the kingdom of heaven. We now put off the old man (flesh) and put on the new man (Spirit). We are renewed by the word of God and through the Holy Spirit teaching us of all things, John 14:26.

Read Colossians 3:1-17 and pay close attention to verse 14. Again, the flesh will always sin and the areas we fill weak in Gods grace will help us overcome them.

 

[Deborah13]

Salvation means to be whole mind, body and soul as we surrender our will to God and allow his will to work in our lives by applying Gods word to every aspect of our lives. This allows us to know the mind of Christ and all the promises of God for our own well-being so we can face anything that tries to come against us while here on this earth so we can triumph and be victorious through the grace and mercy of our Lord and Savior Christ Jesus. Grace pardons us and mercy loves us unconditionally, but grace does not give us a license to sin. Our flesh will always sin because the flesh is never in obedience to God.

John 9:31 Now we know that God heareth not sinners: but if any man be a worshiper of God, and doeth his will, him he heareth.
Romans 8:6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
Romans 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
Romans 8:8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

Sin separates us from God because God is a spirit and can only recognize his own children by what spirit is living in their hearts. We have to renew, rebirth - born again, Gods Spirit within us in order to be called a child of God and see the kingdom of heaven. We now put off the old man (flesh) and put on the new man (Spirit). We are renewed by the word of God and through the Holy Spirit teaching us of all things, John 14:26.

Read Colossians 3:1-17 and pay close attention to verse 14. Again, the flesh will always sin and the areas we fill weak in Gods grace will help us overcome them.

Hey glory, glad to see you back, I missed your imput.

One thing here we might consider when looking at John 9:31 is who is speaking, who he is speaking about, what had been done, and what knowledge the speaker had.
This is what I understand from these verses.

Joh 9:30 The man answered and said to them, `Why, in this is a wonderful thing, that ye have not known whence he is, and he opened my eyes!
Joh 9:31 and we have known that God doth not hear sinners, but, if any one may be a worshipper of God, and may do His will, him He doth hear;
Joh 9:32 from the age it was not heard, that any one did open eyes of one who hath been born blind;
Joh 9:33 if this one were not from God, he were not able to do anything.'

This is not John speaking this it is the previously blind man. He is defending Jesus to the Jews who wanted to discredit Jesus as the Messiah. The Jewish leaders considered anyone who stood against what they taught to be a sinner. Not just a sinner in the sense of one who sinned, certainly there were Jews who sinned, just look at all their atonement ceremonies, but as they were a heathen, not a true Jew in the sense of Jewishness. They regarded Jesus in this way, that He was blasphemer against their God. It is in this reference scope that the blind man was defending Jesus. That surely because of the miracle He did, He must be a man of God and not a blasphemer.
I think that maybe sometimes God answers prayers of the unsaved as a witness to them of His power and to give them a shove towards Him.

 

[DRS81]

As long as you are in Christ Jesus then then applies to you.

If you are are spit out or cast out or blotted out, then this promise would not apply to you.


JLB

Right, if you are born again you are in Christ Jesus.
(Edited, ToS 2.7. Obadiah)

 

[for_his_glory]

Hey glory, glad to see you back, I missed your imput.

One thing here we might consider when looking at John 9:31 is who is speaking, who he is speaking about, what had been done, and what knowledge the speaker had.
This is what I understand from these verses.

Joh 9:30 The man answered and said to them, `Why, in this is a wonderful thing, that ye have not known whence he is, and he opened my eyes!
Joh 9:31 and we have known that God doth not hear sinners, but, if any one may be a worshipper of God, and may do His will, him He doth hear;
Joh 9:32 from the age it was not heard, that any one did open eyes of one who hath been born blind;
Joh 9:33 if this one were not from God, he were not able to do anything.'

This is not John speaking this it is the previously blind man. He is defending Jesus to the Jews who wanted to discredit Jesus as the Messiah. The Jewish leaders considered anyone who stood against what they taught to be a sinner. Not just a sinner in the sense of one who sinned, certainly there were Jews who sinned, just look at all their atonement ceremonies, but as they were a heathen, not a true Jew in the sense of Jewishness. They regarded Jesus in this way, that He was blasphemer against their God. It is in this reference scope that the blind man was defending Jesus. That surely because of the miracle He did, He must be a man of God and not a blasphemer.
I think that maybe sometimes God answers prayers of the unsaved as a witness to them of His power and to give them a shove towards Him.

Thanks Deborah, it's good to be back again.

I believe in regards to the blind man since he might not of known what sin was as he never saw the actions of sin in others and probably was never taught what disobedience to God was may have had no sin found in him and also believed in the God of Moses, yet lacking understanding and knowledge. I believed God used the blind man as a witness to the Pharisees, and of other unbelievers that only the son of God could do such miracles. It's the evidence of something proven that opens the eyes to see that which is before them.

 

[Deborah13]

Thanks Deborah, it's good to be back again.

I believe in regards to the blind man since he might not of known what sin was as he never saw the actions of sin in others and probably was never taught what disobedience to God was may have had no sin found in him and also believed in the God of Moses, yet lacking understanding and knowledge. I believed God used the blind man as a witness to the Pharisees, and of other unbelievers that only the son of God could do such miracles. It's the evidence of something proven that opens the eyes to see that which is before them.

Your post just made me think of this...It must of really drove those guys crazy when Jesus gave this power to lowly fishermen from Galilee. I can just imagine how indignant they were. Here they were men of the priesthood and judiciary over the whole nation of Israel and along comes this Galilean and His cohorts doing miracles that they had never done. No way did they want to believe that is power was from God.

 

[for_his_glory]

Your post just made me think of this...It must of really drove those guys crazy when Jesus gave this power to lowly fishermen from Galilee. I can just imagine how indignant they were. Here they were men of the priesthood and judiciary over the whole nation of Israel and along comes this Galilean and His cohorts doing miracles that they had never done. No way did they want to believe that is power was from God.

"HE LIVES"
four stages of the Pharisees that wanted Jesus crucified

 

[Deborah13]

"HE LIVES"
four stages of the Pharisees that wanted Jesus crucified

That is how it turned at for Saul/Paul and I hope many more....

 

[jocor]

Maybe it's because I'm a woman or because of my childhood but for me it was all about His love for me. That He actually died so that I could live.

So you knew that his love for you was manifested by dying for your sins. Did you not want your sins to be forgiven by his sacrifice before you received him? If so, then breaking the law is what drove you to him so that his love would be upon you.

 

[jocor]

jocor - But this says that neither present nor the future will separate us from God's love.

Rom 8:31-39

What, then, shall we say in response to these things? If God is for us, who can be against us? 32He who did not spare his own Son, but gave him up for us all—how will he not also, along with him, graciously give us all things? 33Who will bring any charge against those whom God has chosen? It is God who justifies. 34Who then is the one who condemns? No one. Christ Jesus who died—more than that, who was raised to life—is at the right hand of God and is also interceding for us. 35Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall trouble or hardship or persecution or famine or nakedness or danger or sword? 36As it is written:

“For your sake we face death all day long;

we are considered as sheep to be slaughtered.”j

37No, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him who loved us. 38For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, 39neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord

The NIV is the only version that translates the phrase as "neither the present nor the future". They add the word "the" which is not in the text. All other versions read "neither things present nor things to come" or something similar. All other versions add "things". If we don't add any words, it reads, "neither present nor to come" (The Greek word mello does not mean "future"). The most natural word to add in order to clarify the meaning is "things". However, if you insist on the NIV being correct, it would simply apply as long as one is in Messiah. Renouncing him puts one out of Messiah, separate from Messiah and lost.

 

[DRS81]

The NIV is the only version that translates the phrase as "neither the present nor the future". They add the word "the" which is not in the text. All other versions read "neither things present nor things to come" or something similar. All other versions add "things". If we don't add any words, it reads, "neither present nor to come" (The Greek word mello does not mean "future"). The most natural word to add in order to clarify the meaning is "things". However, if you insist on the NIV being correct, it would simply apply as long as one is in Messiah. Renouncing him puts one out of Messiah, separate from Messiah and lost.

Ok, what are your thoughts on the rest though.

1. Neither death nor life
2. neither angels nor demons
3. nor any powers
4. neither height nor depth
5. nor anything else in all creation will be able to separate us

37No, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him who loved us. 38For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, 39neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord

Also go to Eph 1:13-14 And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, 14who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of his glory. (NIV)

1. marked
2. seal
3. promised Holy Spirit
4. deposit guaranteeing
5. possession

 

[jocor]

Ok, what are your thoughts on the rest though.

1. Neither death nor life
2. neither angels nor demons
3. nor any powers
4. neither height nor depth
5. nor anything else in all creation will be able to separate us

37No, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him who loved us. 38For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, 39neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord

None of the things mentioned can separate us from the love of Yahweh. All those things are external to us. It is what is internal that matters. Our faith/belief in Yeshua as our atoning sacrifice keeps us in Messiah. When we lose that faith in Messiah's atoning blood on our behalf, we lose salvation. Without faith it is impossible to please Yahweh. As Romans 11:22 says, we must continue in faith or be cut off.

Also go to Eph 1:13-14 And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, 14who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of his glory. (NIV)

1. marked
2. seal
3. promised Holy Spirit
4. deposit guaranteeing
5. possession

If we do not continue in faith as Romans 11:22 says, the seal is removed, the Spirit withdrawn, the deposit withdrawn, the possession let go. We will be cut off in unbelief. Your numbers 1-4 refer to the Holy Spirit. Without it we are not Messiah's (Romans 8:9-11). When we no longer have faith in Yeshua, we grieve the Holy Spirit away.

 

[DRS81]

jocor What are some things we can do to continue in the faith so we don't lose our salvation and go to hell.

 

[jocor]

jocor What are some things we can do to continue in the faith so we don't lose our salvation and go to hell.

I'm not sure if this is a serious question or not.

John 15:6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.
​

Therefore, the answer is abide in Yeshua. The anti-missionaries are out there as the adversary's workmen and they seek to convince us that Yeshua is not the promised Messiah. Their's is the way of eternal death.

 

[DRS81]

I'm not sure if this is a serious question or not.

John 15:6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.
​

Therefore, the answer is abide in Yeshua. The anti-missionaries are out there as the adversary's workmen and they seek to convince us that Yeshua is not the promised Messiah. Their's is the way of eternal death.

So we need to do self works to keep our salvation? No, my questions are serious jocor.

 

[jocor]

So we need to do self works to keep our salvation? No, my questions are serious jocor.

In John 15, Yeshua is talking to his true disciples after Judas left the supper to betray him. So what part of his words do you not believe? The Greek word translated "abide" is "meno" and it means to stay or continue. Here is Strong's definition: A primary verb; to stay (in a given place, state, relation or expectancy). If we don't stay or continue in a relationship with Yeshua, we will burn. Neither the Father nor the Son will force us to continue to believe. The choice is ours. This is no different than Paul's message in Romans 11:22. Both are saying that we (believing branches) will be cut off if we do not continue to believe.

 

[DRS81]

If we don't stay or continue in a relationship with Yeshua, we will burn. Neither the Father nor the Son will force us to continue to believe.

But you didn't answer my question. What must we do in order to continue in a relationship with Yeshua so we don't burn, as you well put it.