˒ĕlōhı̂m: Plural Persons, or Majesty?

[F345T]

Silly to you because you obviously don't understand Greek grammar

And you understand it better than the translators of the KJV?

That's a bold statement.

 

[SolaScriptura]

And you understand it better than the translators of the KJV?

That's a bold statement.

The KJV in Genesis 1:1 is WRONG!

The Hebrew noun "haš·šā·ma·yim", is masculine PLURAL, which is HEAVENS, so the phrase, "the HEAVENS and the EARTH", means, "THE ENTIRE UNIVERSE"!

There are other errors in the KJV

 

[F345T]

The KJV in Genesis 1:1 is WRONG!

The Hebrew noun "haš·šā·ma·yim", is masculine PLURAL, which is HEAVENS, so the phrase, "the HEAVENS and the EARTH", means, "THE ENTIRE UNIVERSE"!

There are other errors in the KJV

The heavens and the earth does not mean the entire universe. Sorry.

That is a personal translation based on 'nothing' in Scripture. You want to talk about original language texts, etc., find me a Hebrew word for Universe. Find a word anywhere in the original languages that means universe.

I'll save you the time. It doesn't exist.

You can decide for yourself why that is, but it doesn't matter. The fact is that your translation of "Entire Universe" is WAY wrong, my friend.

There is no word for UNIVERSE in the Hebrew language.

 

[SolaScriptura]

The heavens and the earth does not mean the entire universe. Sorry.

That is a personal translation based on 'nothing' in Scripture. You want to talk about original language texts, etc., find me a Hebrew word for Universe. Find a word anywhere in the original languages that means universe.

I'll save you the time. It doesn't exist.

You can decide for yourself why that is, but it doesn't matter. The fact is that your translation of "Entire Universe" is WAY wrong, my friend.

There is no word for UNIVERSE in the Hebrew language.

you are wrong!

Isaiah 44:24

"This is what the LORD says, He who is your Redeemer, and the one who formed you from the womb: “I, the LORD, am the maker of all things, Stretching out the heavens by Myself And spreading out the earth alone"

ALL THINGS (kōl), is "the entire UNIVERSE".

The Greek equivalent is used in Colossians 1:16, for Jesus Christ

" For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him"

ALL THINGS (pâs), "in an absolute sense, all things collectively, the totality of created things, the universe of things" (Thayer Greek Lexicon); " The universe" (A T Robertson, Greek scholar)

God Created every single thing there is, whether seen or unseen.

Do you suppose that The Creation of the "heavens and the earth" in Genesis 1:1, does not include EVERY SINGLE THING?

You are just trying to argue with pointless reasoning!

 

[GodsGrace]

The heavens and the earth does not mean the entire universe. Sorry.

That is a personal translation based on 'nothing' in Scripture. You want to talk about original language texts, etc., find me a Hebrew word for Universe. Find a word anywhere in the original languages that means universe.

I'll save you the time. It doesn't exist.

You can decide for yourself why that is, but it doesn't matter. The fact is that your translation of "Entire Universe" is WAY wrong, my friend.

There is no word for UNIVERSE in the Hebrew language.

Hi F,
If there's no word in the Hebrew for UNIVERSE, that would be the reason why the bible says the heavens and the earth.
Peoples of that time knew they were on something....the earth. And they could see all a round them that there was something up above....the heavens.

If you put the two together what you have is the universe.

It makes sense.

 

[GodsGrace]

you are wrong!

Isaiah 44:24

"This is what the LORD says, He who is your Redeemer, and the one who formed you from the womb: “I, the LORD, am the maker of all things, Stretching out the heavens by Myself And spreading out the earth alone"

ALL THINGS (kōl), is "the entire UNIVERSE".

The Greek equivalent is used in Colossians 1:16, for Jesus Christ

" For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him"

ALL THINGS (pâs), "in an absolute sense, all things collectively, the totality of created things, the universe of things" (Thayer Greek Lexicon); " The universe" (A T Robertson, Greek scholar)

God Created every single thing there is, whether seen or unseen.

Do you suppose that The Creation of the "heavens and the earth" in Genesis 1:1, does not include EVERY SINGLE THING?

You are just trying to argue with pointless reasoning!

God made everything....things seen and things not seen.
Which has always been very interesting to me.
Like what things unseen?
Today we know much more than people back then did.
God truly created everything....the cell for instance.
A work of wonder.

 

[F345T]

you are wrong!

Isaiah 44:24

"This is what the LORD says, He who is your Redeemer, and the one who formed you from the womb: “I, the LORD, am the maker of all things, Stretching out the heavens by Myself And spreading out the earth alone"

ALL THINGS (kōl), is "the entire UNIVERSE".

The Greek equivalent is used in Colossians 1:16, for Jesus Christ

" For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him"

ALL THINGS (pâs), "in an absolute sense, all things collectively, the totality of created things, the universe of things" (Thayer Greek Lexicon); " The universe" (A T Robertson, Greek scholar)

God Created every single thing there is, whether seen or unseen.

Do you suppose that The Creation of the "heavens and the earth" in Genesis 1:1, does not include EVERY SINGLE THING?

You are just trying to argue with pointless reasoning!

Sorry, you're mistaken. The closest Hebrew word would be for 'world' or 'entire world', but there is no word whatsoever for Universe.

Hashamayim has always meant sky. Then we have a Hebrew word for Firmament, but there is no word, or concept, for space and the Universe as science has taught modern man.

It just is what it is. This has been a known issue with certain Biblical translations for a very long time.

 

[F345T]

Hi F,
If there's no word in the Hebrew for UNIVERSE, that would be the reason why the bible says the heavens and the earth.
Peoples of that time knew they were on something....the earth. And they could see all a round them that there was something up above....the heavens.

If you put the two together what you have is the universe.

It makes sense.

That point is fine, but there still is no word in Hebrew for Universe.

It's been a known fact for a long, long time. They had no concept of any Universe outside of the earth and the sky. This is also true for various American Indian tribal languages. They had no concept of outer space and a vast Universe with the earth as a tiny speck within it, as a little side note to it all.

This world was, and truly is, a cosmic stage where all the drama was taking place. The Bible doesn't even speak anywhere of solar systems or black holes or any space dynamics whatsoever. It's all about this world that God created where good and evil are battling it out for the real estate of souls and control of the minds of God's people and the continual destruction of His precious Creation.

 

[F345T]

Today we know much more than people back then did.

Just a friendly comment on this perspective.

I don't believe this is true at all. I believe it's just the opposite. If somebody embraces an unbiblical evolutionary perspective, that assumes that we came from apes, then it's easy to accept the idea that we used to be cavemen and used to swing from trees, but we know much more now.

If you embrace a Biblical perspective, then you understand that mankind was very intelligent from the moment man was formed. We were much more intelligent in millennia past because everything was much more pure and knowledge was passed on much more freely. Today, we are fed a steady diet of lies and propaganda which causes the vast majority of people to know next to nothing of the Truth of things unless they do their due diligence in studying and learning for themselves. God says that starts with fearing and reverencing Him, then HE gives us great wisdom and knowledge.

Because there are so few today who go that dedicated and diligent route, we are much more stupid today as a whole than we were even one century ago; and we are much less intelligent than we were in the times of the Bible writers.

 

[GodsGrace]

That point is fine, but there still is no word in Hebrew for Universe.

It's been a known fact for a long, long time. They had no concept of any Universe outside of the earth and the sky. This is also true for various American Indian tribal languages. They had no concept of outer space and a vast Universe with the earth as a tiny speck within it, as a little side note to it all.

This world was, and truly is, a cosmic stage where all the drama was taking place. The Bible doesn't even speak anywhere of solar systems or black holes or any space dynamics whatsoever. It's all about this world that God created where good and evil are battling it out for the real estate of souls and control of the minds of God's people and the continual destruction of His precious Creation.

This is certainly true.
So you mean that they saw The Heaven,,,,that which was immediately visible.
OK. I think that today we would call it the universe.
Is there a word for universe today? (in Hebrew).
There must be.

 

[GodsGrace]

Just a friendly comment on this perspective.

I don't believe this is true at all. I believe it's just the opposite. If somebody embraces an unbiblical evolutionary perspective, that assumes that we came from apes, then it's easy to accept the idea that we used to be cavemen and used to swing from trees, but we know much more now.

If you embrace a Biblical perspective, then you understand that mankind was very intelligent from the moment man was formed. We were much more intelligent in millennia past because everything was much more pure and knowledge was passed on much more freely. Today, we are fed a steady diet of lies and propaganda which causes the vast majority of people to know next to nothing of the Truth of things unless they do their due diligence in studying and learning for themselves. God says that starts with fearing and reverencing Him, then HE gives us great wisdom and knowledge.

Because there are so few today who go that dedicated and diligent route, we are much more stupid today as a whole than we were even one century ago; and we are much less intelligent than we were in the times of the Bible writers.

I agree.
We may be more KNOWLEDGEABLE but we are not more intelligent.
I'm thinking right now of Stonehenge.
And the pyramids....
how man has always found a way to do what he had in mind to do.

Your comment on lies and propoganda which causes the majority of persons to know next to nothing would require another post on your part.

But I'm afraid we would be derailing too much.
Maybe just that one last post?

 

[F345T]

This is certainly true.
So you mean that they saw The Heaven,,,,that which was immediately visible.
OK. I think that today we would call it the universe.
Is there a word for universe today? (in Hebrew).
There must be.

Honestly, I think they just use the Hebrew word for 'world' with a dual meaning that now includes 'Universe.' But originally it only meant 'world.'

 

[SolaScriptura]

Sorry, you're mistaken. The closest Hebrew word would be for 'world' or 'entire world', but there is no word whatsoever for Universe.

Hashamayim has always meant sky. Then we have a Hebrew word for Firmament, but there is no word, or concept, for space and the Universe as science has taught modern man.

It just is what it is. This has been a known issue with certain Biblical translations for a very long time.

you are wasting time talking nonsense!

Either God Created EVERYTHING as it says in Genesis 1:1, or He did not!

You seem like a person who must have the last say, even when you are WRONG

 

[F345T]

you are wasting time talking nonsense!

Either God Created EVERYTHING as it says in Genesis 1:1, or He did not!

You seem like a person who must have the last say, even when you are WRONG

You are deceived.

But at least you won't be lonely.

Now I offer you the final word.

 

[1pet2_9]

Did I miss something somewhere? This is a long thread. What about the Jewish prayer?

Barukh ata Adonai Eloheinu, Melekh ha'olam, asher kid'shanu b'mitzvotav v'tzivanu l'hadlik ner shel Shabbat. Blessed are You, LORD our God, King of the universe, Who has sanctified us with His commandments and commanded us to light the Shabbat candle.

This is the "Lord's Prayer" for today's Jews. Very common knowledge. When it appears in Torah it means, "everlasting", "infinite". And yes, universe. As today's Jews understand it.

 

[SolaScriptura]

You are deceived.

But at least you won't be lonely.

Now I offer you the final word.

save your words. You don't know what you are even talking about!

 

[SolaScriptura]

Did I miss something somewhere? This is a long thread. What about the Jewish prayer?

Barukh ata Adonai Eloheinu, Melekh ha'olam, asher kid'shanu b'mitzvotav v'tzivanu l'hadlik ner shel Shabbat. Blessed are You, LORD our God, King of the universe, Who has sanctified us with His commandments and commanded us to light the Shabbat candle.

This is the "Lord's Prayer" for today's Jews. Very common knowledge. When it appears in Torah it means, "everlasting", "infinite". And yes, universe. As today's Jews understand it.

thanks. very true!

 

[F345T]

As today's Jews understand it.

Thank you for being honest.

You supported exactly what I said about the Hebrew word that meant 'world' or 'entire world' at the time it was written.

 

[F345T]

save your words. You don't know what you are even talking about!

Listen, this Hebrew word that originally meant 'world' or 'entire world' is not the lynch pin in your case that you're now making it out to be.

Absent your misunderstanding of this word, there still remains zero teaching of God being three persons in the Bible.

I'm sorry that you have been so deceived and are now so passionately pushing your false doctrine. Some people just like to believe things that exist nowhere in Scripture.

 

[F345T]

When we get to verses 26 and 27, it becomes clear why the plural “˒ĕlōhı̂m”, and not the singular “˒ēl”, or “˒ĕlōah”, is used in verse 1, and in over 2600 times in the Old Testament.

“Then God said, “Let Us Make man in Our Image, according to Our Likeness; let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, and over the cattle, over all the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth.”. So God Created man in His Own Image; in the Image of God He created him; male and female He created them”

In verse 26, we have “˒ĕlōhı̂m” (mas. plural), as the Speaker, Who says, “let US make (na-‘ă-śeh, plural) man, in OUR Image (bəṣaləmēnû, plural) , according to OUR Likeness (kiḏəmûṯēnû, plural)

It must be asked, if God were Unitarian, then surely we would have expected verse 26 to read:

“Then God said, I have Made man in My Image, according to My Likeness”

In verse 27 it goes on to say, “So God (ĕlōhı̂m) Created man in His Own Image (bə·ṣal·mōw) ; in the Image (bə·ṣe·lem) of God (ĕlōhı̂m) He created him”. As we read in Genesis 9:6, “for in the Image of God (bə·ṣe·lem ˒ĕlōhı̂m) made He man”. Why the plural in verse 26?

Because the angels were present, just as Job 38:7 proves.

Most refuse to accept this fact, even when presented with Job 38:7, but there are plenty of other witnesses to the fact that angels are 'always' present with God.

Observe:

Do we see any obvious signs in the text of Angels being present at the giving of the Decalogue in Exodus 20:1? Not that I can see. Yet, we find the Bible declaring in other places that they certainly were.

"... murderers: who have received the Law by the disposition of Angels, and have not kept it." Acts 7:52-53

and here:

"For if the Word (10 Commandments) spoken by Angels was stedfast, and every transgression and disobedience received a just recompence of reward; ..."
Heb. 2:2

(sidenote: the phrase 'the Word' is also spoken of in Paul's teachings to all peoples showing that He too taught the 10 Commandments that Christ taught and obeyed.)

So we see here that the Angels were certainly present at Creation with God and it is very obvious, in light of these other verses, that they are the "US" referred to in Gen. 1:26 - especially since the text immediately follows with "So God created man in His own image, in the image of God created He him; ..." in Gen. 1:27.

"His own" cannot mean 2 or 3 people. The text has no problem using the word us or them elsewhere. Why would it not use that plural form for God if He were 2 or 3?

Claiming that these verses in Genesis prove that God is a plural is just not a sound interpretation of the text at all and the multiple verse references of Angels being present prove it to be false.