“As He Is”

[FreeGrace]

There's a difference in being "called" and "chosen".

Maybe not as much as commonly thought.

Because of the uniqueness and completeness of God's love once we are reconciled with God ("called") many people confuse this pure love as being "chosen" for a position of Leadership.

In terms of meaning, the word for "call" means "to invite", whereas the word for "chosen" or elected is related to being chosen or elected for service.

So, Matt 22:14 is that all believers have been invited to serve, but only the faithful have been chosen to serve.

Where it's a common mistake fed with a touch of pride/ego this misconception often brings about some disastrous results. "Many are called but few are chosen" is what Jesus explained to a man wanting to become his disciple. He obviously had plans of becoming a big named Rabbi. Jesus didn't want him to be a leader...but just be a follower.

Could you provide the text that shows this? I'm only aware of Matt 22:14, which in the context of the wedding banquet.

Thanks.

 

[FreeGrace]

Hi Brother - Appreciate your input, and the interesting comment. It's my understanding that this passage refers to that the world was called, but it's evident in most of mankind's decision to disbelieve that they are not chosen to salvation. Conversely, those who have decided to believe will manifest they are chosen.

The problem is that none of the related Greek words, noun - ekloge, verb - eklegomai, or adjective - eklektos, are used for salvation.

The only verse about being "chosen for salvation" is found in 2 Thess 2:13, but the Greek word for chosen is "haireomai", not eklegomai.

Further, the verse is about the method or means of how one is saved. iow, God has chosen how one is saved: though sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth. That's how one is chosen for salvation. Through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth.

 

[netchaplain]

The problem is that none of the related Greek words, noun - ekloge, verb - eklegomai, or adjective - eklektos, are used for salvation.

The only verse about being "chosen for salvation" is found in 2 Thess 2:13, but the Greek word for chosen is "haireomai", not eklegomai.

Further, the verse is about the method or means of how one is saved. iow, God has chosen how one is saved: though sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth. That's how one is chosen for salvation. Through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth.

Doesn't God know--from eternity past--who will choose or not choose salvation? Unless this is not what you're referring to.

 

[gr8grace3]

My wording didn't necessarily refer to a believer but "if the fruit of the Spirit does not come forth." All believers have the Spirit and will eventually bear fruit of the Spirit, but not those who profess faith and are not genuine concerning it. It will eventually been seen if they are or are not reborn. The metaphor is that every vine or tree bears either good fruit or evil fruit, they cannot bear both (Mat 7:17, 18).

There will always be a time period required that will eventually reveal if one is maturing in faith or if one is falsely professing faith. If one is not a believer there will be none of this fruit to bear, and if one is a believer they will bear this fruit. "A man may say" he has faith (Jam 2:18) but if the fruit (works) is not eventually evident it's a false profession and the Spirit has not been in them yet.



We cannot have the Spirit and not eventually walk after Him, which takes time to learn, and God ensures we will, which is the point of Phil 2:13.

Which bases peoples salvation on fruit or their works in the end.

Acts 16:31 should have been written........."Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you MUST work/produce fruit. Or you will not really be saved."

It's a works gospel NC. And not His True Gospel of believe and be saved....Acts 16:31.

Again Phil 2:13~~ The Holy Spirit IN US is Always/constantly desiring His will and good pleasure. Not the believer. Because we still have this 'condition' to contend with.......that grieves and quenches the Spirit. And believers can do that their entire lives if they wish. But their salvation is locked and loaded the moment they trusted in Christ.

We would not have the sin unto death(physical) for believers if this were not true.
1 John 5:16 (NASB95)
16 If anyone sees his brother committing a sin not leading to death, he shall ask and God will for him give life to those who commit sin not leading to death. There is a sin leading to death; I do not say that he should make request for this.

James 2:18. We will KNOW other believers by their fruit/doctrines. Some believers never advance enough for us to KNOW.
Doesn't mean they are not saved.

 

[gr8grace3]

In terms of meaning, the word for "call" means "to invite",

whereas the word for "chosen" or elected is related to being chosen or elected for service.

This needs to be repeated over and over and over and over. If believers could see this truth..........it clears up SO many misconceptions taken from His word.

Our election is NOT salvation......It is to serve and Glorify Him AFTER we believe.

We are elected to live in His predesigned plan for our lives. We are not elected to gain or not gain His salvation.

 

[FreeGrace]

Doesn't God know--from eternity past--who will choose or not choose salvation? Unless this is not what you're referring to.

Of course God knows. He is all knowing. Or omniscient. But this is not related to election. Election is a decree of sorts. God has decreed all believers to service. Or chosen all believers for service.

My point is that the Bible does not teach that God chooses who will believe, which is the foundation of Calvinist election.

God does choose who to save, but He doesn't choose who will believe.

He chooses to save believers. 1 Cor 1:21

 

[FreeGrace]

In terms of meaning, the word for "call" means "to invite",
This needs to be repeated over and over and over and over. If believers could see this truth..........it clears up SO many misconceptions taken from His word.

Our election is NOT salvation......It is to serve and Glorify Him AFTER we believe.

We are elected to live in His predesigned plan for our lives. We are not elected to gain or not gain His salvation.

 

[netchaplain]

Which bases peoples salvation on fruit or their works in the end.

I think I may not understand your meaning of "basis," concerning salvation. The only basis works or fruit have concerning salvation is that it is only used to manifest (show) salvation and has no affect on anything related to producing or retaining salvation.

It's a works gospel NC

Not sure of your meaning here.

And not His True Gospel of believe and be saved....Acts 16:31.

Faith must precede works, for there are no works apart from faith. Faith is a gift, and is not self-obtained .

 

[JohnDB]

Hi Brother - Appreciate your input, and the interesting comment. It's my understanding that this passage refers to that the world was called, but it's evident in most of mankind's decision to disbelieve that they are not chosen to salvation. Conversely, those who have decided to believe will manifest they are chosen.

But the passage from which Jesus said this in was aimed at those who asked/stated their desire to become one of Jesus' disciple. One was told that he would have no place to sleep or call home. Another was told that he couldn't tend to his dying parents.
Being a disciple of Jesus' means that you give up everything with no expectations of gaining anything worldly like a position of authority or wealth or especially importance. That's the lesson from this passage...and that God knows the hearts of men.

 

[netchaplain]

Of course God knows. He is all knowing. Or omniscient. But this is not related to election. Election is a decree of sorts.

I see election as just something that God foreknows concerning all things, esp, who will choose Him or not.

My point is that the Bible does not teach that God chooses who will believe,

True, He has always known who will choose to disbelieve, but He has done it for the sake of those He knew would choose, even though He knew it would not involve the majority of mankind.

 

[gr8grace3]

I think I may not understand your meaning of "basis," concerning salvation. The only basis works or fruit have concerning salvation is that it is only used to manifest (show) salvation and has no affect on anything related to producing or retaining salvation.

Then I agree with you. If we NEVER show anything............We are still saved. Because the Basis of salvation is Christ and His work when we BELIEVED.

He preserves, even if we don't persevere. John 10:28.

 

[FreeGrace]

I see election as just something that God foreknows concerning all things, esp, who will choose Him or not.

A thorough study of all the associated Greek words will show the meaning of the word.

 

[gr8grace3]

True, He has always known who will choose to disbelieve, but He has done it for the sake of those He knew would choose, even though He knew it would not involve the majority of mankind.

Really? He died for ALL. He died for the sake of ALL mankind.......are we to familiar with John 3:16?

He tore the veil(Sin) in the temple so that ALL could come to Him.......sin is finished(even for unbelievers), so that ALL men can approach Him, believe, and be saved.

The Lord Jesus Christ is much bigger than dying for the sake of little ole me and you.

 

[netchaplain]

If we NEVER show anything............We are still saved.

I wouldn't say that a believer will never show any fruit, because all believers will eventually manifest Him in their life, just a matter of time to learn the walk as the Spirit teaches.

Because the Basis of salvation is Christ and His work when we BELIEVED. He preserves, even if we don't persevere. John 10:28.

Agreed, He preserves but it is only because of the faith given us. Salvation requires two elements, both of which are gifts: Grace and Faith. It's "by grace," and "though faith" (Eph 2:8).

 

[netchaplain]

Really? He died for ALL. He died for the sake of ALL mankind.......are we to familiar with John 3:16?

He tore the veil(Sin) in the temple so that ALL could come to Him.......sin is finished(even for unbelievers), so that ALL men can approach Him, believe, and be saved.

The Lord Jesus Christ is much bigger than dying for the sake of little ole me and you.

Just pointing out that even though the offer was to all, He knew most wold not choose His way.

 

[dirtfarmer]

Really? He died for ALL. He died for the sake of ALL mankind.......are we to familiar with John 3:16?

He tore the veil(Sin) in the temple so that ALL could come to Him.......sin is finished(even for unbelievers), so that ALL men can approach Him, believe, and be saved.

The Lord Jesus Christ is much bigger than dying for the sake of little ole me and you.

hello gr8grace3, dirtfarmer here

I agree with your post until the last sentence. I believe that if I or you were the only one to believe, Christ would still have climbed on that cross of judgment.

It is my belief that in God's knowledge of all, there are things that he chooses to leave up to the individual. Salvation is one of those things. If it were not, then why say," Whosoever believeth ".He has pre-determined( predestinated) that all who believe will be saved, become his children. Just as the children of Israel were given the choice to serve God or the gods of their fathers on the other side of the flood.

It is similiar to a computer program: If you choose A then goto, but if you choose B then goto.

 

[gr8grace3]

I agree with your post until the last sentence. I believe that if I or you were the only one to believe, Christ would still have climbed on that cross of judgment.

This is what people don't understand......If you and I were the only humans that ever lived, and He KNEW we would NOT believe.......He would still die for us. Our sins would be paid for and we would live with the opportunity to be saved all our lives. If we didn't choose for Him.....we would be judged according to our DEEDS/WORKS/OUR OWN RIGHTEOUSNESS......which is evil in Gods eyes. Because He died for all of our sin.
Rev 20:12~~New American Standard Bible
And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and books were opened; and another book was opened, which is the book of life; and the dead were judged from the things which were written in the books, according to their deeds.(Not sin[He paid for ALL sin], but according to our self righteous WORKS.)

It is my belief that in God's knowledge of all, there are things that he chooses to leave up to the individual. Salvation is one of those things. If it were not, then why say," Whosoever believeth ".He has pre-determined( predestinated) that all who believe will be saved, become his children. Just as the children of Israel were given the choice to serve God or the gods of their fathers on the other side of the flood.

Agreed. I am Arguing against the false Idea that God predestines/elects some to hell and some to heaven.<<<<<<<This core belief of calvinism is about as bad as the armin false idea of loss of salvation.

 

[dirtfarmer]

This is what people don't understand......If you and I were the only humans that ever lived, and He KNEW we would NOT believe.......He would still die for us. Our sins would be paid for and we would live with the opportunity to be saved all our lives. If we didn't choose for Him.....we would be judged according to our DEEDS/WORKS/OUR OWN RIGHTEOUSNESS......which is evil in Gods eyes. Because He died for all of our sin.
Rev 20:12~~New American Standard Bible
And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and books were opened; and another book was opened, which is the book of life; and the dead were judged from the things which were written in the books, according to their deeds.(Not sin[He paid for ALL sin], but according to our self righteous WORKS.)


Agreed. I am Arguing against the false Idea that God predestines/elects some to hell and some to heaven.<<<<<<<This core belief of calvinism is about as bad as the armin false idea of loss of salvation.

hello gr8grace, dirtfarmer here

Bibically sound doctrine. I agree with you 100%. That is the problem with many. They believe that that sins consign a person to the lake of fire. They fail to understand that it is unbelief in Christ sacrifice than consigns them to the lake of fire.

The degree of punishment will be according to the number of times they have rejected the gospel and died in their unforgiven state.

 

[gr8grace3]

hello gr8grace, dirtfarmer here

Bibically sound doctrine. I agree with you 100%. That is the problem with many. They believe that that sins consign a person to the lake of fire. They fail to understand that it is unbelief in Christ sacrifice than consigns them to the lake of fire.

The degree of punishment will be according to the number of times they have rejected the gospel and died in their unforgiven state.

 

[FreeGrace]

hello gr8grace, dirtfarmer here

Bibically sound doctrine. I agree with you 100%. That is the problem with many. They believe that that sins consign a person to the lake of fire. They fail to understand that it is unbelief in Christ sacrifice than consigns them to the lake of fire.

If I could add several cents to this discussion.

Some will say that unbelief is a sin, and that Christ didn't die for that specific sin. However, the Bible is clear that He died for all sins.

So, what actually does consign one to the lake of fire? The Bible tells us, in Rev 20:15. One's name is not found in the book of life. So, in reality, it isn't unbelief, but failure to accept the free gift of eternal life, that consigns one to the lake of fire.

The degree of punishment will be according to the number of times they have rejected the gospel and died in their unforgiven state.

Jesus indicated that it will be "more bearable" for some than others "on that day" (day of judgment at the Great White Throne). And He was clear that it will be more bearable for the residents of Sodom and Gomorra than some of the current cities of the day, who weren't morally despicable and depraved as were the residents of those ancient cities. That must have been quite a shock to the self-righteous Pharisees and their followers.