1 John 1: Against self-justifying doctrine

[RBDERRICK]

And there is a difference between having a relationship vs Having fellowship.

This is one of the myriad ways for sinners to claim salvation while sinning in darkness: Being saved with God without His fellowship.

Which would be justified with God, without being reconciled to God.

It's like being justified, but not sanctified.

Now a good question is what does it mean to believe Jesus is the Christ?

To obey Him in spirit and deed and in truth.

Matth 23:26
Thou blind Pharisee, cleanse first that which is within the cup and platter, that the outside of them may be clean also.

Matthew 6:23
But if thine eye be evil, thy whole body shall be full of darkness. If therefore the light that is in thee be darkness, how great is that darkness!

No one is believing Christ without repenting of dead works to obey Him:

Mark 1:15
And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.

Heb 6:1
Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,

No unrepented sinners can obey God with a whole heart as commanded, because they have not recieved His new heart of faith to do so.

Heb 1:13
But to which of the angels said he at any time, Sit on my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool?

as in James that saving faith is never alone. It will produce works.

True. No faith is ever alone without works, because people are either doing good or evil by their faith.

James is condemning any faith that is not doing good.

There are those who say they are saved by faith alone apart from works, but their faith is never alone without works.

Ps 12:2
They speak vanity every one with his neighbour: with flattering lips and with a double heart do they speak.

Therefore it is possible that when it says one who believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God its because God Himself did the drawing.

True. Since the 'drawing' only begins with repentance from disobeying Him.

1 John 5:1
Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.

Since no Scripture is isolated from any other Scripture, we know that believing and loving God is always by having repented of being disobedient enemies of God.

1Jo 5:5
Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?

Only those repented of the world of sin recieves the faith of Jesus. And so, only those overcoming the world of sin are believing Jesus.

All the unrepented children of disobedience are judged with all unbelievers of the world.

So what does it mean to be in Christ. My guess is to practice his teachings.

True. Which is not with any sinning against Him and His faith:

Rom 1:5
By whom we have received grace and apostleship, for obedience to the faith among all nations, for his name:

1 John 3:4
Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
1Jo 3:5
And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.

There is no sinning in Christ Jesus. It's only another sinful christ of another gospel, that unrepentant sinners can be justified with.

And we know Jesus came to destroy the works of the Devil- Just maybe the consequence of the devils work is separation. Or even Guilt ridden conscience.

Separation of guilt for sinning, is made by the Lord Jesus in delivering the repentant from their sinning.

Separation of guilt from sinning, while sinning, is made by another gospel in delivering the unrepentant from their guilt, not their sinning.

The gospel of Jesus Christ resurrects the righteous unto life forever with Him. The other gospel ends in the grave.

And when you live according to your call you make your call and elect sure.

Obeying the Lord's call to obey His faith, is making our calling and election sure not to sin and fall.

2 Peter 1:10
Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall: For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.

Obeying one's own calling and election, while falling by transgression, is only sure until the grave.

Rom 6:16
Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

1Jo 5:16
If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it.

If a saint sins, and seeks repentance, we ought be prayed for and exhorting not to quit and fall away.

Those who set themselves to transgress unto the grave by doctrinal justification, are not worthy of prayer, but only to be left alone.

Matthew
{15:14} Let them alone: they be blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind lead the blind, both shall fall into the ditch.

 

[RBDERRICK]

Tks for this one. My brother told me to look this up. And I responded with this question saying: if one is walking in the light in Christ do they have sin? Or is sin looked over?

So here's a thought . If one is cleansed from sin do they still have sin.

So what does that mean: to be cleansed from all sin. Does it mean you no longer have the Guilt that seperates you. It definitely does not mean you never sinned in the past. Does it mean you are still transgressing the Law if you are cleansed.

Or We have no transgressions of the law?

Does it mean being in the body we automatically transgress the law, Yet are forgiven while transgressing the law?

So my question: Is one transgressing the law if they are walking by the Spirit?

Do you believe that one cannot continually walk by the Spirit and remain in the teachings of Christ and at some point they will walk by the flesh.

JLB

This is what Paul calls doting about questions, that are only meant to bring doubt into God's words.

When Jesus Christ says there is no sinning in Himself, then who 'questions' what that means?

Only those want to believe they are in Christ, while sinning.

Col 2:8
Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.

 

[follower]

God who cannot be killed

So close, yet so far away.

Jhn 10:15 - As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep.

Jhn 10:17 - Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again.

Jhn 13:37 - Peter said unto him, Lord, why cannot I follow thee now? I will lay down my life for thy sake.

Jhn 13:38 - Jesus answered him, Wilt thou lay down thy life for my sake? Verily, verily, I say unto thee, The cock shall not crow, till thou hast denied me thrice.

Jhn 15:13 - Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends.

1Jo 3:16 - Hereby perceive we the love of God, because he laid down his life for us: and we ought to lay down our lives for the brethren.

 

[RBDERRICK]

Then, no. Christians struggle with sin.

Saints struggle with temptation, not sinning.

Sinners struggle with sinning.

Saints that sin by temptation are now sinners struggling with sinning.

True believers have been set free from the power and penalty of sin, but still need to walk in the Spirit so as not to give in to temptation to sin.

True. This is enduring temptation and overcoming the sinning.

He certainly is. That is why he tells those to whom he is writing to continually confess their sins.

Only if continually sinning.

Those who preach when they sin, are not preaching Jesus' doctrine for if we sin.

If all one had to do was confess once and that was it,

Then it's called repenting of the sin.

then what John states makes no sense.

Since it's not John's words being taught, then it's someone else's doctrine that makes no sense with God.

However, it makes perfect since for those continually sinning, to need continual confession and cleansing.

And the longsuffering Lord will continue to do so, untl the confession becomes only the lip-service of "Oops. Sorry."

2 Cor 7:10
For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of: but the sorrow of the world worketh death.

Again, it's about understanding what John actually wrote, since he didn't write in English as you seem to think.

Diving into original languages is a favorite tool of people, that want to change the plain English into something else entirely.

But no amount of such linguistic arts can ever produce John ever saying the saints ought be continually confessing...As though the saints ought be continually sinning...

Of course, I agree. However, what you keep failing to accept, is that everything takes time to grow to maturity.

There is no growth in Christ Jesus with disobedience, but only with obedience.

Everything. As seed is a seed, not a plant or a tree.

The holy seed of Christ produces only the obedient trees of God:

1 Peter
{1:14} As obedient children, not fashioning yourselves according to the former lusts in your ignorance: {1:15} But as he which hath called you is holy, so be ye holy in all manner of conversation; {1:16} Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy. {1:17} And if ye call on the Father, who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man’s work, pass the time of your sojourning [here] in fear:

Rom 11:16
For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches.

It's only another sinful seed that produces any evil fruit, whether all evil, or good and evil.

All unbelievers are sinners, but not all sinners are unbelievers.

Only in the lukewarm religion of half hearted repenters.

There are many believers in many things, that are still sinners by transgressions.

With the Lord all transgressors are judged as sinners, whatever they believe or don't believe in anything, whether fervently or half-heartedly.

Ps 5:10
Destroy thou them, O God; let them fall by their own counsels; cast them out in the multitude of their transgressions; for they have rebelled against thee.

The NT makes a very clear distinction between those whose lives are characterized by unrepentant, wilful, habitual sin, and those who are justified by grace

Also with the Lord, anyone doing unrighteousness are sinners not inheriting His righteous kingom: Whether at any time, or habitually.

Even as one sin is as any other, any time of sinning is as any other.

There is no transgression worse nor better than any other, nor is there any time of transgression worse or better than any other.

Those who believe their own less sinning, is less sinful than the world, are saying their own sinning is less sinful than the world.

Rom 2:22
Thou that sayest a man should not commit adultery, dost thou commit adultery? thou that abhorrest idols, dost thou commit sacrilege?

Thou that makest thy boast of the law, through breaking the law dishonourest thou God? For the name of God is blasphemed among the Gentiles through you, as it is written.


This of course condemns frequency of doing such things.

The relativist judgment of sinful man is among the unrepentant Jews having the law alone, and the unrepentant Christians having faith alone.

It's what the world most mocks about any religious sinner, who believes their own sinning and amount of sinning, is better than those not playing religion at all.

{3:15} I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot. {3:16} So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.

Mark 2;17
When Jesus heard it, he saith unto them, They that are whole have no need of the physician, but they that are sick: I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.

Jesus only comes to call sinners to repentance, not the self-righteous by law or faith alone.

That doesn’t mean true believers don’t sin.

Especially truly warm believers with half-hearted repentance.

Those believers have made a warm bed with their continual sinning and confessing, without repentance of the sinning.

You need to be much more clear in what you are saying. To call someone a liar is to state something about their character,

Not necessarily. There are many liars, that absolutely beleive what they are lying about. Many people can be sincerely wrong.

And so, to say someone is lying about the truth of the Bible, is not necessarily saying someone is purposely lying against the truth.

However, all liars that love to make a lie, will be cast into the LOF.

Whether they sincerely believe their own lies or not.

And some do spend much time loving how to turn the truth of Scripture into a lie, just to justify their own contually sinning against Christ.

But that is far different from someone, who in the heat of a moment, without thinking, responds with a lie but then later confesses. There is a significant difference.

True. Even Paul said a lie, when He said his companions on the road to Damascus did not hear any voice.

We see by God's account through Luke, that they certainly did.

And so willing to believe all things, Paul honestly repeated their lie to him, that they didn't hear any voice from heaven.

Those who do not practice righteousness are not of God; they cannot do righteousness.

True. Those doing unrighteousness are not of God, because they are not doing His righteousness.

True believers, however, can and do practice righteousness.

True again. At all times. But if the righteous do sin, then we have the same advocate with the Father, that the whole world of sinners have to confess and repent to.

There is even a direct example of Peter having sinned:

True. And repented of it. The good news is not that no saint can possibly ever sin again. The good news is that anyone can now repent for Jesus' sake, and become a saint not sinning.

However, there is the good news promising no more sinning, if we add to Jesus' faith the virtue, patientce, godliness, and brotherly love necessary not to fall anymore. (2 Peter 1)

However, some self-justifiers falsely accuse Peter of continuing to have respect of persons unto the grave, which is not true. Peter did repent and no more favor company of Jews over repented Gentile converts to the faith of Jesus.

Some sinners are more than willing to have everyone else on earth sinning like them unto death, since they foolsihly think they are covered from judgment by 'numbers'.

The flood proves that is a foolish hope of the unrepentant.

 

[Corinth77777]

I know.

Furthermore he believes he is sinless, and therefore has no need to confess his sins.

I understand His thought there

His claim is, if a person sins, they were never really born again.

This is where I disagree with him.
For seeing the the kingdom is righteousness, peace and Joy in the Holyghost.

And those who are born are brought into the kingdom and will have peace and joy etc.
you know they were touched with life from above.

I believe that earth is a training ground and it just may be what we become now on earth will have a place in the next life.

John the Apostle writes:

If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us.
My little children, these things I write to you, so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous. And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world. 1 John 1:8 - 2:2

• He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world.

He is in total denial of the truth of there verses.


Here is what the scripture plainly says -

If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us. 1 John 1:8-10

I think I addressed this in an earlier post I'll find it.
Hypothetically, if the writer is writing to address a specific ideal imposed by an opponent that says: after conversion to love not the brother is not a sin and does not affect having a relationship or fellowship, Then the opponent is not really a true believer. (Truth not in Him)
Because a true believer would have guilt and repent.

If Love fullfills the law and a " so called believer" does not love His brother could He truly be practicing the truth- for the practice of truth results in fellowship/salvation/life

Now I am not an advocate of saying you can loose the Spirit. But do believe that God can turn His face on sin.

Is a person an American based on them keeping all the rules? I'd say no. It seems like the only condition is being born in America.

My thought-

Set us free from sin and death

Means that there is a natural course of life a seed will grow- as an apple seed grows into an apple.
So as following our natural abilities lead to death and we were held by that power. Those who have received the word are free from serving sin.

So sin will not reign if we live by the Spirit.
But does not mean our body is not there for We are clothed with it.

The answer trust Jesus, not ourselves.
For if we live by the spirit life and peace.(salvation)

The trusting in Jesus will show Gods promises to be true.

HOW CAN WE PUT AWAY THE DEEDS OF THE FLESH TRUST GOD AND WALK IN LOVE.

WE ALSO CAN BE AWARE OF WHAT WE PUT IN OUR ENVIRONMENT.

 

[Corinth77777]

You have faith in Christ...believe this..."There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it." (1 Cor 10:13)
If a man sins, he is ignoring the escapes promised by God.
His fate will be in a fiery lake.
If he eventually submits to God and repents of all sin, he can change that fate.

I'll let God be true-

 

[Hopeful 2]

Yes He often did. He spoke what YHVH gave Him to Speak.

Scripture, please.

If you look it up in the Bible (have you read the Bible ? or are you being taught by someone who does not know the Bible?)
If God Permits, You can find the answer, whether fast or slow, I do not know.

You have refused to answer for so long that I now doubt there even was one.

 

[Hopeful 2]

The sacrifice was sometimes drained of all of its blood.

I am pretty sure that the sacrifices always had their blood drained.

It occured to me that Jesus said after his resurrection that he is "flesh and bone" but no mention of being "flesh and blood." Luke 24:39.

Jesus was probably just getting to the point, as He could just as well have mentioned tendons and facia, and brains, and sinus cavities, hair and eye balls, etc. etc.

 

[Hopeful 2]

I'll let God be true-

That is a wise move.

 

[Hopeful 2]

I understand His thought there

This is where I disagree with him.
For seeing the the kingdom is righteousness, peace and Joy in the Holyghost.

And those who are born are brought into the kingdom and will have peace and joy etc.
you know they were touched with life from above.

I believe that earth is a training ground and it just may be what we become now on earth will have a place in the next life.





I think I addressed this in an earlier post I'll find it.
Hypothetically, if the writer is writing to address a specific ideal imposed by an opponent that says: after conversion to love not the brother is not a sin and does not affect having a relationship or fellowship, Then the opponent is not really a true believer. (Truth not in Him)
Because a true believer would have guilt and repent.

If Love fullfills the law and a " so called believer" does not love His brother could He truly be practicing the truth- for the practice of truth results in fellowship/salvation/life

Now I am not an advocate of saying you can loose the Spirit. But do believe that God can turn His face on sin.

Is a person an American based on them keeping all the rules? I'd say no. It seems like the only condition is being born in America.

My thought-

Set us free from sin and death

Means that there is a natural course of life a seed will grow- as an apple seed grows into an apple.
So as following our natural abilities lead to death and we were held by that power. Those who have received the word are free from serving sin.

So sin will not reign if we live by the Spirit.
But does not mean our body is not there for We are clothed with it.

The answer trust Jesus, not ourselves.
For if we live by the spirit life and peace.(salvation)

The trusting in Jesus will show Gods promises to be true.

HOW CAN WE PUT AWAY THE DEEDS OF THE FLESH TRUST GOD AND WALK IN LOVE.

WE ALSO CAN BE AWARE OF WHAT WE PUT IN OUR ENVIRONMENT.

What sin has your body ever committed ?

 

[RBDERRICK]

So close, yet so far away.

True.

God that was Three from everlasting, was not the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost, until by their own counsel, the Word was chosen to become the Lamb of God.

Any of the Three could have been chosen and died on a cross, in obedience to the predetermined will of God in the beginning.

 

[RBDERRICK]

His claim is, if a person sins, they were never really born again.

The only ones I know teaching anything like this, are the faith aloners that judge there must be good works following, to prove they have saving faith.

They use their own subjective judgment of works, in order to claim others more sinful than they, were never really saved.

And none of it is true. Bible doctrine is that God no more remembers the righteousness of them, that turn from His righteousness, even as God no more remembers the unrighteousness of them, that turn from their unrighteousness.

Since we are judged by our works, then God no longer remembers them as being His firends or enemies, but only knows them now for what they do.

3Jo 1:11
Beloved, follow not that which is evil, but that which is good. He that doeth good is of God: but he that doeth evil hath not seen God.

No one walking in darkness is seeing God in His life, no matter any past walking in His light. The same is for them walkiing in His light is in darkness, no matter any past walking in darkness.

God only judges the faith by our present works, whether good or evil. Not by any works that are past, nor any works that may or may not come.

 

[Hopeful 2]

The only ones I know teaching anything like this, are the faith aloners that judge there must be good works following, to prove they have saving faith.

Don't you beleive 1 John 3:9 ?
If someone is really born of God's seed, they cannot commit sin.

They use their own subjective judgment of works, in order to claim others more sinful than they, were never really saved.

And none of it is true. Bible doctrine is that God no more remembers the righteousness of them, that turn from His righteousness, even as God no more remembers the unrighteousness of them, that turn from their unrighteousness.

Since we are judged by our works, then God no longer remembers them as being His firends or enemies, but only knows them now for what they do.

3Jo 1:11
Beloved, follow not that which is evil, but that which is good. He that doeth good is of God: but he that doeth evil hath not seen God.

No one walking in darkness is seeing God in His life, no matter any past walking in His light. The same is for them walkiing in His light is in darkness, no matter any past walking in darkness.

God only judges the faith by our present works, whether good or evil. Not by any works that are past, nor any works that may or may not come.

 

[JLB]

I know the truth can free us from committing sin. (John 8:32-34)
Do you know that ?

Then Jesus said to those Jews who believed Him, “If you abide in My word, you are My disciples indeed. 32 And you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.”
They answered Him, “We are Abraham’s descendants, and have never been in bondage to anyone. How can You say, ‘You will be made free’?”
Jesus answered them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, whoever commits sin is a slave of sin. 35 And a slave does not abide in the house forever, but a son abides forever. Therefore if the Son makes you free, you shall be free indeed. John 8:31-36

The key to walking in the light, is confessing your sin.

Can you show from the scriptures, an apostle that was sinless... who claims they were sinless like you claim you are sinless.

 

[JLB]

This is where I disagree with him.

So do I, and so does Jesus and so does scripture.

 

[JLB]

The only ones I know teaching anything like this, are the faith aloners that judge there must be good works following, to prove they have saving faith.

Well now you have encountered another sect that is in the other ditch on the other side of the road.


The way that leads to life has two ditches on either side.

One is called legalism.
The other is called lawlessness.


The one thing both sides have in common is this:

Nether one believes in confessing there sin and therefore they don't.

The "faith alone" (Reformed) believe that all their sins; past present and future have all been forgiven so there is no need to confess their sins and be forgiven.

The "sinless perfect" folks believe they physical body was "born again" and therefore they are sinless and have no need to confess their sin.


THE TRUTH:

If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us. 1 John 1:8-10




JLB

 

[follower]

Scripture, please.

You have refused to answer for so long that I now doubt there even was one.

It appears from you and others that not knowing God's Will, His Word, and His Plan, even the simple parts,
was meant to be revealed here. If I or anyone else who knows had posted the simple Bible Answer,
things would not have been revealed.

 

[Runningman]

So close, yet so far away.

Jhn 10:15 - As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep.

Jhn 10:17 - Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again.

Jhn 13:37 - Peter said unto him, Lord, why cannot I follow thee now? I will lay down my life for thy sake.

Jhn 13:38 - Jesus answered him, Wilt thou lay down thy life for my sake? Verily, verily, I say unto thee, The cock shall not crow, till thou hast denied me thrice.

Jhn 15:13 - Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends.

1Jo 3:16 - Hereby perceive we the love of God, because he laid down his life for us: and we ought to lay down our lives for the brethren.

Yes, a man was sacrificed. God cannot be sacrificed because He is immortal and doesn't have blood either. This is necessary because if Jesus is immortal then he wasn't sacrificed. He died of blood loss.

1 Timothy 6
16He alone is immortal and dwells in unapproachable light. No one has ever seen Him, nor can anyone see Him. To Him be honor and eternal dominion! Amen.

 

[follower]

The heresy of the post right before this one
is not accepted nor is it acceptable to anyone who loves God and is called according to His Purpose.

 

[Runningman]

The heresy of the post right before this one
is not accepted nor is it acceptable to anyone who loves God and is called according to His Purpose.

Seems you require Jesus not dying. Do you believe Jesus died your sins? If yes, then good. This is orthodox Christianity.