Bible Study A study on the Sabbath

[Sam21]

We are to keep the sabbath holy,however we do not have to set in a chair and stare at our feet all day in order to keep the sabbath holy. As christians we are to keep every single day holy and that is accomplished by staying in faith in Christ. It is not possible to keep the sabbath or any day holy simply by resting, God has moved away from that,we cannot be holy to God by resting or working but by faith in Jesus Christ.

 

[Nathan]

I knew that's all it was.

I just posted that verse for any onlookers that may have been confused by it.

Thank you for holding me accountable. I need that. I am sure that some of my posts are a bit confusing. It may sound like I am proclaiming something when in reality I am addressing it more toward the questioning side of things. That is my downfall for not slowing down, and taking the time to use correct words and punctuation. I have to admit. While going back over the posts it seems as though I am trying to 'push' one thing or another. That is not my intention. My intention is to study, first and foremost. Dig up the deep things that surround this topic and get to the bottom of why men suddenly changed the day of dedication to God from Saturday to Sunday.

Why not Monday? Tuesday? Why not Friday? I am sorry, I do not buy into the idea that it comes from the time when our Lord rose from the dead. Where does it specify that as a day of worship? So why was that day set like it was? Does anyone have any information from the early church fathers that might point to this?

 

[Elijah674]

We are to keep the sabbath holy,however we do not have to set in a chair and stare at our feet all day in order to keep the sabbath holy. As christians we are to keep every single day holy and that is accomplished by staying in faith in Christ. It is not possible to keep the sabbath or any day holy simply by resting, God has moved away from that,we cannot be holy to God by resting or working but by faith in Jesus Christ.

Some good thoughts there, & some mistakes as 'i' see it?
First you are correct about Sabbath Loving duties. Isa. 58:12-14 says that the [MOUTH OF THE LORD HAS SPOKEN]'! And we can see what He requires from His 7th Day Sabbath for 'us to ride upon the high places of the earth' +!

Then you say to keep every day Holy?? True, we as Christian's are to do so as to Eccl. 12:13-14. We should be the most honest, without even having to take an oath. But the Godhead still has a DAY that They have SET ASIDE! He BLESSED the DAY, and He HALLOWED IT + SANCTIFIED IT & told [US] (HIS CREATION) that IT WAS FOR HOLY USE. And Isa.'s Inspiration tel's what ones duties are.

The Command even say's to do NO WORK, + look who else is to not be doing so for THIS SPECIAL DAY? Cattle, servant, children!

And you say that we can't keep the Lord's Sabbath??? He say's that WE CAN! Phil. 4:13 + 2 Cor. 12:9. OBEDIENCE is the only way that we will [FINALLY] be Saved. All of these in Heb. 11 DIED IN THE FAITH! [The James 2 WORKING KIND!]
And that was ALL DONE BECAUSE OF THEIR FERVERNT LOVE TO THE ONE WHO DIED FOR THEM!

NOTHING else will save! Talk talk & more talk, is nothing more than a 'carnal' LUKEWARM LOVE TO BE SPEWED OUT, & is nothing more than a cop/out. Rev. 3:16

--Elijah

PS: Here is the Isa. 58 Inspiration...

[12] And they that shall be of thee shall build the old waste places: thou shalt raise up the foundations of many generations; and thou shalt be called, The repairer of the breach, The restorer of paths to dwell in.
[13] If thou turn away thy foot from the sabbath, from doing thy pleasure on my holy day; and call the sabbath a delight, the holy of the LORD, honourable; and shalt honour him, not doing thine own ways, nor finding thine own pleasure, nor speaking thine own words:
[14] Then shalt thou delight thyself in the LORD; and I will cause thee to ride upon the high places of the earth, and feed thee with the heritage of Jacob thy father: for the mouth of the LORD hath spoken it.

 

[cyberjosh]

My intention is to study, first and foremost. Dig up the deep things that surround this topic and get to the bottom of why men suddenly changed the day of dedication to God from Saturday to Sunday.

Why not Monday? Tuesday? Why not Friday? I am sorry, I do not buy into the idea that it comes from the time when our Lord rose from the dead. Where does it specify that as a day of worship? So why was that day set like it was? Does anyone have any information from the early church fathers that might point to this?

Hi Nathan. I believe I could provide some references later to "the Lord's Day" from the Church Fathers, yes. It is my understanding however that the church meeting on the Lord's Day was never meant to "replace" the Sabbath, I don't think the Sabbath was even in mind when they decided to meet on the Lord's Day (which was a memorial day of Jesus' resurrection - something different), rather it was the gathering of the ekklesia on the day Jesus rose to have communion together, hear exhortations of the word, and even have love feasts (think modern day Baptist traditions of: communion, sermon, potluck ;)). In fact that may be where we get the idea of preaching on Sundays, the Sabbath in the OT never had gathering or exhortation attached to it (though in later, post-OT Jewish tradition teaching in Synagogues was popular on the Sabbath). But I think the Lord's Day and the Sabbath were always seperate at their beginnings.

However, once again in my understanding (I could stand to be corrected), I believe that the ekklesia's weekly gatherings on the Lord's Day began to draw on certain principles of the weekly Sabbath that was noticed by Christians when reading the OT, and then additional traditions were eventually associated with it. However, even with that being said, I don't know how long in Church history it took for this idea of Sabbath principles to attach itself to the seperate gathering on the Lord's Day: was it Protestant only, only becoming an idea 500 years ago? Or did the early Church Fathers start to deem principles of the Sabbath to be on the Lord's Day? And maybe there was after all a connection between Synagogue Sabbath teachings (which however was not an OT command or ordinance) and the early Church practice of preaching on the Lord's Day.

And as for your inquiry, I do have a Quotes of the Church Fathers book (which is quite thick) and has alphabetically organized topics with various quotes on many subjects. I'm fairly confident there is a category in there just on the Lord's Day (which became a 'technical' term of sorts refering to the day of Jesus' resurrection) and it may even have that sense in Revelation 1:10 (though it is debated if this is on "Sunday" that John had the vision, or rather whether the vision was of the "Day of the Lord" prophesied in the OT). However the Sunday ekklesia meeting for lovefeasts & exhortation, etc. was observed as early as the 1st century itself and is recorded in the Didache. You might do a little digging on the didache and the very early practices of the Church (that is one of the best resources we have for that). Also please make use of the thread on the Didache here. I found every post in there very interesting. I also posted something there about what the Didache says about love-feasts.

I will try to return later with some quotes from the Church Fathers.

God Bless,

~Josh

 

[Nathan]

Some good thoughts there, & some mistakes as 'i' see it?
First you are correct about Sabbath Loving duties. Isa. 58:12-14 says that the [MOUTH OF THE LORD HAS SPOKEN]'! And we can see what He requires from His 7th Day Sabbath for 'us to ride upon the high places of the earth' +!

Then you say to keep every day Holy?? True, we as Christian's are to do so as to Eccl. 12:13-14. We should be the most honest, without even having to take an oath. But the Godhead still has a DAY that They have SET ASIDE! He BLESSED the DAY, and He HALLOWED IT + SANCTIFIED IT & told [US] (HIS CREATION) that IT WAS FOR HOLY USE. And Isa.'s Inspiration tel's what ones duties are.

The Command even say's to do NO WORK, + look who else is to not be doing so for THIS SPECIAL DAY? Cattle, servant, children!

And you say that we can't keep the Lord's Sabbath??? He say's that WE CAN! Phil. 4:13 + 2 Cor. 12:9. OBEDIENCE is the only way that we will [FINALLY] be Saved. All of these in Heb. 11 DIED IN THE FAITH! [The James 2 WORKING KIND!]
And that was ALL DONE BECAUSE OF THEIR FERVERNT LOVE TO THE ONE WHO DIED FOR THEM!

NOTHING else will save! Talk talk & more talk, is nothing more than a 'carnal' LUKEWARM LOVE TO BE SPEWED OUT, & is nothing more than a cop/out. Rev. 3:16

--Elijah

PS: Here is the Isa. 58 Inspiration...

[12] And they that shall be of thee shall build the old waste places: thou shalt raise up the foundations of many generations; and thou shalt be called, The repairer of the breach, The restorer of paths to dwell in.
[13] If thou turn away thy foot from the sabbath, from doing thy pleasure on my holy day; and call the sabbath a delight, the holy of the LORD, honourable; and shalt honour him, not doing thine own ways, nor finding thine own pleasure, nor speaking thine own words:
[14] Then shalt thou delight thyself in the LORD; and I will cause thee to ride upon the high places of the earth, and feed thee with the heritage of Jacob thy father: for the mouth of the LORD hath spoken it.

Thank you very much for reiterating this. I have to wonder how many times this has been said through you. I also find it interesting, and it goes to some of my original thoughts, about what God says before He makes this statement about the Sabbath.

Isa 58:1 "Cry aloud; do not hold back; lift up your voice like a trumpet; declare to my people their transgression, to the house of Jacob their sins.

Isa 58:2 Yet they seek me daily and delight to know my ways, as if they were a nation that did righteousness and did not forsake the judgment of their God; they ask of me righteous judgments; they delight to draw near to God.

Isa 58:3 'Why have we fasted, and you see it not? Why have we humbled ourselves, and you take no knowledge of it?' Behold, in the day of your fast you seek your own pleasure, and oppress all your workers.

Isa 58:4 Behold, you fast only to quarrel and to fight and to hit with a wicked fist. Fasting like yours this day will not make your voice to be heard on high.

Isa 58:5 Is such the fast that I choose, a day for a person to humble himself? Is it to bow down his head like a reed, and to spread sackcloth and ashes under him? Will you call this a fast, and a day acceptable to the LORD?

Isa 58:6 "Is not this the fast that I choose: to loose the bonds of wickedness, to undo the straps of the yoke, to let the oppressed go free, and to break every yoke?

Isa 58:7 Is it not to share your bread with the hungry and bring the homeless poor into your house; when you see the naked, to cover him, and not to hide yourself from your own flesh?

Isa 58:8 Then shall your light break forth like the dawn, and your healing shall spring up speedily; your righteousness shall go before you; the glory of the LORD shall be your rear guard.

Isa 58:9 Then you shall call, and the LORD will answer; you shall cry, and he will say, 'Here I am.' If you take away the yoke from your midst, the pointing of the finger, and speaking wickedness,

Isa 58:10 if you pour yourself out for the hungry and satisfy the desire of the afflicted, then shall your light rise in the darkness and your gloom be as the noonday.

Isa 58:11 And the LORD will guide you continually and satisfy your desire in scorched places and make your bones strong; and you shall be like a watered garden, like a spring of water, whose waters do not fail.

Do we so quickly look over the extreme similarities that are found in Jesus' own teaching? Why would we not? It is He who is from the beginning anyways. Why follow in His steps....until it comes to one thing? Thats what I just do not understand.

Its not about rules and regulations. Do not do this, do not do that. But rather about focusing, on a specific day, on who God is.

The seventh day is the day in which God rested. It is also, known from Hebrews, the resemblance of the day we will rest. It is the day when "historically" no 'personal' work was to be done. It is a day that was designed to focus all the attention on who God is and His provisions for us.

In like manner; Sunday is the first day of the "work" week. It is also known, on a good note, as the day when Christ rose from the grave. But here is where I find a somewhat eerie sense about it. I do not buy into Sunday as worship on "Sun-day". There are no other God's but one, and we cannot 'accidentally' worship another one by gathering on Sunday.

However, have we replaced the already set up time of reflecting on God's rest with our own rest? The Sabbath never had anything to do with 'works'. In fact, it is just the opposite. The Sabbath was a sign that God is the one who works, and we rest in that work. But what I have seen, what I have known for so many years now is the blatant self-centered of our worship to God on Sunday. We spend more time 'boasting' about our freedom in Christ that God's grace and mercy that gives us rest.

We are free, free from the law, but by no means free to do whatever we want. That has NEVER been a true doctrine. We are free from the requirements of the law ONLY to be yoked to Christ. What about the Sabbath does not emulate that?

 

[Nathan]

Hi Nathan. I believe I could provide some references later to "the Lord's Day" from the Church Fathers, yes. It is my understanding however that the church meeting on the Lord's Day was never meant to "replace" the Sabbath, I don't think the Sabbath was even in mind when they decided to meet on the Lord's Day (which was a memorial day of Jesus' resurrection - something different), rather it was the gathering of the ekklesia on the day Jesus rose to have communion together, hear exhortations of the word, and even have love feasts (think modern day Baptist traditions of: communion, sermon, potluck ;)). In fact that may be where we get the idea of preaching on Sundays, the Sabbath in the OT never had gathering or exhortation attached to it (though in later, post-OT Jewish tradition teaching in Synagogues was popular on the Sabbath). But I think the Lord's Day and the Sabbath were always seperate at their beginnings.

However, once again in my understanding (I could stand to be corrected), I believe that the ekklesia's weekly gatherings on the Lord's Day began to draw on certain principles of the weekly Sabbath that was noticed by Christians when reading the OT, and then additional traditions were eventually associated with it. However, even with that being said, I don't know how long in Church history it took for this idea of Sabbath principles to attach itself to the seperate gathering on the Lord's Day: was it Protestant only, only becoming an idea 500 years ago? Or did the early Church Fathers start to deem principles of the Sabbath to be on the Lord's Day? And maybe there was after all a connection between Synagogue Sabbath teachings (which however was not an OT command or ordinance) and the early Church practice of preaching on the Lord's Day.

And as for your inquiry, I do have a Quotes of the Church Fathers book (which is quite thick) and has alphabetically organized topics with various quotes on many subjects. I'm fairly confident there is a category in there just on the Lord's Day (which became a 'technical' term of sorts refering to the day of Jesus' resurrection) and it may even have that sense in Revelation 1:10 (though it is debated if this is on "Sunday" that John had the vision, or rather whether the vision was of the "Day of the Lord" prophesied in the OT). However the Sunday ekklesia meeting for lovefeasts & exhortation, etc. was observed as early as the 1st century itself and is recorded in the Didache. You might do a little digging on the didache and the very early practices of the Church (that is one of the best resources we have for that). Also please make use of the thread on the Didache here. I found every post in there very interesting. I also posted something there about what the Didache says about love-feasts.

I will try to return later with some quotes from the Church Fathers.

God Bless,

~Josh

Thanks Josh. That would be great. I use the word replace loosely, even though some in fact do feel that it did replace.

But here is a interesting point you make. It was the gathering of the 'called out ones'. Called out from what? Called out from a righteousness based on works unto a righteousness based on faith. It never had anything to do with being called out from the knowledge of who God is. Only in the way that He dealt with mankind. Paul makes it a specific point that His striving with the "Jews" is first and foremost His priority.

We "Gentiles" (in the flesh) were called out also. Does that mean we are called out from under the law? No. We were never under the law. The calling has nothing to do with the law. God is still working on His people, on the basis of how He has been since Abraham, and the only "change" was that Gentiles were now being shown a great and awesome mercy in order to provoke the Jews to jealousy. It is ONLY to show that righteousness does not come by the keeping of the law.

Jesus said the law is not abolished. Paul said he did not make the law null and void. The Law is the law. Jesus magnified it to show the deeper meaning of it. And the only thing that Jesus called out the pharisees on was their lack of understanding of it. He said specifically;

Mat 12:5 Or have you not read in the Law how on the Sabbath the priests in the temple profane the Sabbath and are guiltless?

The priests are guiltless. Why? Because they did not look at the work as anything other than keeping the Sabbath Holy. It was profaned in the eyes of some, but in God's eyes they are guiltless. That is where my train of thought is going.

Sure, a day of doing nothing is not going to matter if it is Saturday or Sunday. 24 hours is 24 hours. But God was very specific in the day. So there has to be significance in the day, not the rest. This is what we see 'magnified' by Jesus over and over. Now that I am contemplating it, I have to wonder if the 4th commandment is the one He magnified the most often?

We can agree that it was not replaced. So its just because Jewish believers decided they were going to start worshiping on the first day of the week? They would hold to the magnification of all 9 commandments (as dictated by the epistles that some of them wrote), but yet when it came to the 1 they just decided to not do anything with it, that it was not important, that it held no significance? I just do not buy it.

Ok. So then it was not Jewish believers that "quit" keeping the Sabbath Holy, it was Gentile believers that did not have any part of the law who 'decided' to meet on Sunday? I can buy that, to a point. Who did they learn Jesus doctrine from? Jewish believers. Would the Jewish believers say that there was no longer any significance to 'keeping' the Sabbath? Did they not teach all the other teachings of the Ten Commandments? And yet they would just happen to pass over this one?

Then we have our report of what they did indeed write to Gentile believers when they heard that God was saving them.

Act 15:19 Therefore my judgment is that we should not trouble those of the Gentiles who turn to God,

Act 15:20 but should write to them to abstain from the things polluted by idols, and from sexual immorality, and from what has been strangled, and from blood.

But how quickly we pass over the conversation that led up to these few 'verses' and the conversation that is written afterward.

Act 15:12 And all the assembly fell silent, and they listened to Barnabas and Paul as they related what signs and wonders God had done through them among the Gentiles.

Act 15:13 After they finished speaking, James replied, "Brothers, listen to me.

Act 15:14 Simeon has related how God first visited the Gentiles, to take from them a people for his name.

Act 15:15 And with this the words of the prophets agree, just as it is written,

Act 15:16 "'After this I will return, and I will rebuild the tent of David that has fallen; I will rebuild its ruins, and I will restore it,

Act 15:17 that the remnant of mankind may seek the Lord, and all the Gentiles who are called by my name, says the Lord, who makes these things

Act 15:18 known from of old.'
.
.
.
Act 15:21 For from ancient generations Moses has had in every city those who proclaim him, for he is read every Sabbath in the synagogues."

So, it seems to me that they were laying no burden on them in the keeping of rules and ritual regulations. However, they make it a point that they are 'learning about God', through "Moses"(the first five books of the OT as we know it). And when were they learning? "every Sabbath". So I am having a real hard time that somewhere along the way a believer stood up and said, "I am not going to be yoked under 'bondage' to learn and do the things of God on the Sabbath. I am going to start doing these things on Sunday." I also have a very hard time understanding why they would be learning, and in the process of learning they would have understood that the Sabbath was something that was set apart as Holy LONG before the "law" was given, and how they would only attribute it to something that is under the law.

There is no logic in this. There is no logic in why and how they started gathering on Sundays and completely left the Sabbath to itself.

 

[cyberjosh]

We are free, free from the law, but by no means free to do whatever we want. That has NEVER been a true doctrine. We are free from the requirements of the law ONLY to be yoked to Christ. What about the Sabbath does not emulate that?

This requires a more comprehensive answer, but we must also ask ourselves why the disciples were then 'okay' with not ordering the Gentiles to observe the Sabbath in Acts 15 when they could have. I don't think it was to 'defer' to the Gentile 'culture' and thus compromise, but rather something about it that was not absolutely necessary for salvation or that was even preparatory in nature. Else, as you say, why not have all observe the Sabbath? Also in Colossians we know that there were those who wrongly taught strict observance of feasts and moons and, yes, even sabbaths (Col 2:16) about which Paul said that they should not let anyone judge us by those things, because they were "shadows" (vs. 17) of the true substance in Jesus. We need to consider it from the NT Church's perspective too, for surely this issue is addressed! We act as if we were left no instruction on what to make of the Sabbath in the NT! And as I stated several posts ago as well, if one wishes to observe it they may (but are not obligated).

I hope these things factor into the rest of this conversation as well.

God Bless,

~Josh

 

[Nathan]

I know I am talking a lot, but I am just working this all out in my head and you guys are my sounding board.

This just hit me also. So they started gathering on "Sunday" to have communion? Right? Well, it may be right, but who knows for absolute sure.

But how weird is that? Communion is done in remembrance of Christ. Of His sacrifice. When did Christ have communion with His disciples? I know it was not the first day of the week. See what I am saying? I have never really studied it in depth before. But now I am intrigued as to the timeline of this all.

Either way, it just does not add up to a 'ritualistic' gathering on Sunday.

 

[Nathan]

This requires a more comprehensive answer, but we must also ask ourselves why the disciples were then 'okay' with not ordering the Gentiles to observe the Sabbath in Acts 15 when they could have.

Just off hand, for one thing, they stated themselves that the Gentiles were already 'observing' the Sabbath. Maybe not in the way of the tradition of Jewish people. But as far as the Lord was concerned, if they were gathering not to do their own works, but to learn about God, then they were in effect "keeping" the Sabbath. So they had no reason why to mention it to them. They did not mention lying or stealing in that letter. They did not mention greed or murder in the letter. But it did not mean they did not later mention it in other personal epistles.

Oh most certainly Josh. Never think of me as one who is not capable of looking at things from different angles. If I ever have come to a stead fast unmovable position I will tell you. That does not mean I am 'wishy washy' over this however. It just means I am just wanting to dig up every piece of information I can possible get about it. Call it "Spiritual Archeology".

 

[cyberjosh]

Along the same lines please also ponder on how it is that the Church could have been this unfaithful for so long since the 1st century and never have had a major move of God to correct it? Has the Church been blind for 2000 years? And unless you consider the foudning of the 7th Day Adventist denomination a move from God how could God not heavily burden the conscience of the billions, even trillions, of Christians down through the millenia about how to properly address this issue?

I suspect you will see a running dialogue if you do real scholarly research down through Church history of what Church Father's said, what Middle Ages theologians said, and what early Protestants and Lutherans said on the matter (I've actually found a great deal of my modern theological questions and curiosities amazingly - or so I thought but rather expected in hindsight - covered in much detail by Church theologians down through Church history, better if you study more than one person's theological views). One error that can result from an extreme stance of Protestantism in reaction to Catholicism is to reject Church tradition all together, as if no wisdom had been passed down to us from the beginning. Most older denominations have firm creeds based on what had been historically handed down to them as truth. The Anglican Church has a strong historical tradition. We must ask ourselves how the Sabbath could have been ignored for so long by all the Church and it not have brought God's correction at any point? This also is a serious consideration.

~Josh

 

[cyberjosh]

Just off hand, for one thing, they stated themselves that the Gentiles were already 'observing' the Sabbath.

Well I will try to respond in more depth later, but the statement by James in Acts 15 wasn't saying that the Gentiles already did observe the Sabbath, he was saying that the Gentiles had access to the teachings done in the Synagogues (which - as it turns out - is done on the Sabbath, which - as I pointed out earlier - was not an original practice to "teach" on the Sabbath to my knowledge - only done with the post-Exilic creation of Synagogues) if they (the Gentiles) wanted to hear more of God's law. I believe he was refering to the Diaspora of the Jews spread all throughout Asia minor. "Those who proclaim him" (15:21) were the Jews proclaiming it to the Gentiles in Gentile cities - and remember even the Pharisees had proselytizers (Matthew 23:15). In the Epistle of Galatians, which was sent to the Gentiles and to a Gentile city, it nonetheless mentions the Jews (in this case wicked Judaizers) among them who wanted them to be circumcized, etc. (and the non-necessaity of circumcision was actually the whole reason for spurring the Acts 15 meeting, as you can see from the story of Paul and Barnabas leading up to it).

James is simply saying (by mentioning the teaching on the Sabbath in the Synagogues) that the Jews are spread all throughout the Gentile cities to adequately represent Judaism, thus only a few things would they (the Church in Jerusalem) require of the Gentiles (so as to not offend the Jews living with them in those cities - such as eating meat offered to idols - which Paul later clarified was 'technically' okay to do if it does not offend your brother or your own conscience - I think he said just not to even ask if it was 'idol meat'). So anyway the underlined part I think is the point of that verse in Acts 15. We may have different understandings of its meaning but I think that is the best understanding of it in context of the ongoing issues between the Jews and Gentiles in the NT. Let me know if you have any questions or differences of interpretation on that point please.

God Bless,

~Josh

 

[TRUTH over TRADITION]

I know I am talking a lot, but I am just working this all out in my head and you guys are my sounding board.

This just hit me also. So they started gathering on "Sunday" to have communion? Right? Well, it may be right, but who knows for absolute sure.

But how weird is that? Communion is done in remembrance of Christ. Of His sacrifice. When did Christ have communion with His disciples? I know it was not the first day of the week. See what I am saying? I have never really studied it in depth before. But now I am intrigued as to the timeline of this all.

Either way, it just does not add up to a 'ritualistic' gathering on Sunday.

I have wonder myself when the practice of a Sunday communion began. In the church i grew up in, they taught that the apostles practiced this, but as I looked to the scriptures, specifically Acts 20:7, that they used aas a proof text, I see no such practice or admonision.
The frequency and time of the communion frankly isn't addressed specifically in scripture and one can even make a good case that since Christ is our passover that the communion should be partaken of during the month of Nisan as the Passover is. That is when Jesus and his original disciples did it.

 

[Elijah674]

Again & Again NOTHING Personal meant here!

--Elijah here:

Are you telling me that Paul is talking about Gods 10 Commandments being a curse??
Or is it just the 7th Day Sabbath of God, and it does say curse, huh? It is interesting how some call the Law that I see as Christ's 'Epistle Love letter to MANKIND', a curse?? (2 Cor. 3:3)

If so, then you best check out Gal. 2:11-13 to see what 'the subject' being addressed was about? That of 'of the circumcism'! Then 16-18 was still pointing to this same topic! Do you not understand that verse 14 finds only the law of Moses & circumcism that were of any issue, surely not the Commands of the Covenant,.. and these ALL were 7th Day Sabbath keepers in the time of Acts!

And if that is not clear, read verse 11 for where Paul called Peter down & why? The reference is seen in Acts 5:1-2, & has absolutely NOTHING to do with God Royal Law or ten commandments written in stone!

Notice the verse:
"And certain men which came down from Judaea taught the brethren, [and said,] Except ye 'be circumcised' after the MANNER OF MOSES, [YE CANNOT BE SAVED].' Can you even suggest that, that was found in the 10 Commandments of God???

But not only was this the Subject, but verse 5 also includes 'other's than just Peter' as well, and take notice that it C-L-E-A-R-L-Y states in this 'inspired' verse.. COMMAND them to keep 'THE LAW OF Moses'!

'But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them [AND] to command them to keep the [Law of Moses].' (and you will not accept that Inspiration??)

It goes on to say that the apostles and the elders came together to consider this matter! What matter was that? READ IT AGAIN until you get it right! (no offence meant!) But you, my friends seem to be just as dense as they? You remind me of Peter's 3 time Vision of Acts 10, with the reams & reams of Ph.D. stuff penned! And most of these come out with a tainted false teaching even yet in 2011.

Now: What were the Laws of Moses? Paul stated that: ...
'But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are [found sinners], is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid. For [if I build the things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor].'

[This verse] tells of the Universal Covenant 10 commandment law. For where 'NO LAW IS, THERE IS NO TRANSGRESSION. (Rom. 4:15) How could Paul say we could be 'found sinners' if there were [now], no law?

OK: Back in Deut. 31 were see Moses with a LAW contained in a book. Called the [Book of the Law!] We also see it placed in [the side] of the Ark of God! Not inside of the Ark of God, where His 10 Commandments Royal Universal Covenant was, & IS STILL LOCATED!!

It was the law of Moses that was nailed to the Cross! [ALL of the CEREMONIAL LAWS] that pointed to Christ's death on the Cross. These were all added because of sin. Gal. 3:19. What were these law?? God does not leave us ignorant if we will search as He commanded. (2 Tim. 3:16-*Matt. 4:4-Matt. 28:20)

Paul also includes Col. 2:9-20 & Eph. 2:12-15 with these Laws of 'ordinances' and 'holy day' and 'the new moons, and the Sabbath day's'! These 'holy days' are the Sabbath of Moses law. NEVER ARE THEY THE 4TH COMMANDMENT OF THE TEN!!
Notice Deut 30:10 for the [plural] of commandment's'! "If thou shalt hearken unto the voice of the Lord thy God, to keep [his commandments] and His statues which are written [in THIS BOOK of the law, ..."
(both the statues & these commandments are written in the BOOK OF THE LAW)

Again take note in Deut. 31:9 & verses 24-26. And note verse 26 closes with .. "Take [this book of the law] and [put it in the 'side of the Ark'] of the covenant of the Lord

(notice these Words, & the Col. 2:14's Words of 'Against us') your God, that it may be there for a witness against thee".

And Paul's choice of Words.. Sabbath day's' plural, feast day's' plural, holy day's' plural? We even see in Acts 12:1-5 that Herod had James killed & Peter was locked up, and it was the Jews of old Israel that were keeping [this Feast Day] that you all keep today, you call it EASTER! (verse 3-4 ibid..) And you say that you are.. 'cursed with a curse'. Gal. 1:6-9!

You can understand Paul if you become the spiritual Jew of Rom. 2:28-38! Born Again.
Notice again the Law of Moses!! 2 Chron.. 8:13
'Even after a certain rate [every day], offering according to the [*commandments of Moses], on [the Sabbath's], and on [the new moon's'], and on the [solemn feast's'], (Easter, huh?) three times in the year, even the [feast of unleavened bread] and the [feast of week's'] and the feasts of [tabernacle's'].'

These laws ALL pointed to the Lamb of God that taketh away the sin's of the world. When the Vail rent from top to bottom by an unseen hand, these laws of Moses were FINISHED, (Gal. 3:19) and the way was made into the Most Holy Place itself! Here is where the Ark of God was seen that had His 'TESTIMONY inside of His Ark! See Rev. 11:19.

NOW: Bottom line! Notice real good.
'And hallow my Sabbaths; and they shall be a SIGN between [Me and you], that ye [may know that I am the Lord your God]. [[[pay attention to what follows!]]]

Notwithstanding the children rebelled [against me: they walked not in my 'STATUES' ... WHEREFORE I GAVE THEM [ALSO] STATUES THAT WERE NOT GOOD, AND JUDGEMENTS WHEREBY THEY SHOULD *NOT LIVE.." Eze. 20:verse 20 & verse 25.

 

[Nathan]

Along the same lines please also ponder on how it is that the Church could have been this unfaithful for so long since the 1st century and never have had a major move of God to correct it?

Most definitely it is something to ponder. And I have. In fact the man who pastors our fellowship once used the same 'line of thought' to indicate a strong background of tradition since the early Church. It's the line of thought that how can something that has been done for so long be so wrong. It was not dealing with this subject however.

But think about it for a moment. What was the time of Christ like when He came? Had they not seen the very power of God reveal to them all things about Him? And how many did Jesus find that were still faithful to Him? What was His plea for Jerusalem? Had God not time after time speak to them through individual prophets and such? But yet we see the "organized" religion of that day in udder despair. So much so that they were using the very temple of God to exchange money.

Who is to say that God has not moved in the heart of countless people on the earth since then? What was Jesus statement about finding faith when He comes again? The parallels to our current "spirituality"'and the kind that was alive when He came back then are very eerie to consider.

Tradition holds no hope for me where this is concerned. Never the less it will be interesting to read up on the early church. Think about it Josh, I am sure you are a student of the crusades. If at any point in time you would think God would be fed up with individuals completely missing His will, and subsequently come and set things straight, wouldn't it have been during that dark time in "church" history?

 

[cyberjosh]

Paul also includes Col. 2:9-20 & Eph. 2:12-15 with these Laws of 'ordinances' and 'holy day' and 'the new moons, and the Sabbath day's'! These 'holy days' are the Sabbath of Moses law. NEVER ARE THEY THE 4TH COMMANDMENT OF THE TEN!!

Elijah, respectfully that is not true. How can you say that the 10 Commandments was not part of the Law of Moses? It was with the very 10 words (davar) coming from God's mouth at Mt. Sinai that the Mosaic Covenant and Law was instituted in the first place. Exodus 20 does not stand alone apart from the rest of the laws in Exodus or the Pentateuch, the rest were elaborations on God's covenant law stated on Mt. Sinai! You can't seriously be separating the Ten Commandments from the Law of Moses!

I do not understand this arguement.

 

[cyberjosh]

Brother Elijah,

'But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them [AND] to command them to keep the [Law of Moses].' (and you will not accept that Inspiration??)

It goes on to say that the apostles and the elders came together to consider this matter!

All that that verse records is that a claim was made by the Pharisees (just as the claim for the necessity of circumcision for salvation was made) and all these different claims is what forced the Church to "consider" the matter. Yet in the outcome of "considering this matter" where do we see the order to "keep the Law of Moses"??? And did you not say yourself later in your post (quoted again further below), "It was the law of Moses that was nailed to the Cross!"???

All that is sent to the Gentiles is this letter:

"22 Then it pleased the apostles and elders, with the whole church, to send chosen men of their own company to Antioch with Paul and Barnabas, namely, Judas who was also named Barsabas, and Silas, leading men among the brethren.
23 They wrote this, letter by them:

The apostles, the elders, and the brethren,

To the brethren who are of the Gentiles in Antioch, Syria, and Cilicia:
Greetings.

24 Since we have heard that some who went out from us have troubled you with words, unsettling your souls, saying, “You must be circumcised and keep the law”[f]—to whom we gave no such commandment— 25 it seemed good to us, being assembled with one accord, to send chosen men to you with our beloved Barnabas and Paul, 26 men who have risked their lives for the name of our Lord Jesus Christ. 27 We have therefore sent Judas and Silas, who will also report the same things by word of mouth. 28 For it seemed good to the Holy Spirit, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things: 29 that you abstain from things offered to idols, from blood, from things strangled, and from sexual immorality.[g] If you keep yourselves from these, you will do well.
Farewell." (Acts 15:22-29)

Let us not go beyond what is written.

You remind me of Peter's 3 time Vision of Acts 10, with the reams & reams of Ph.D. stuff penned!

I'm not sure what you are refering to here, but I'm not trying to sound like a Ph.D. I'm trying to speak from my heart and conscience, not my 'head'.

Now: What were the Laws of Moses? Paul stated that: ...
'But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are [found sinners], is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid. For [if I build the things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor].'

[This verse] tells of the Universal Covenant 10 commandment law. For where 'NO LAW IS, THERE IS NO TRANSGRESSION. (Rom. 4:15) How could Paul say we could be 'found sinners' if there were [now], no law?

This is not refering to the Law of Moses but God's moral law which applied even to the Gentiles. How else could the Gentiles be considered a "law unto themselves" (Romans 2:14) if they do the things in the Mosaic Law naturally (vs. 14)? It says in verse 12, "For as many as have sinned without law will also perish without law, and as many as have sinned in the law will be judged by the law". You can still sin without the Law of Moses! Some were indeed completely without the Law of Moses, but none are without the moral law of God! Else it would not say (my notes in parantheses), "for when Gentiles, who do not have the law (of Moses), by nature do the things in the law (of Moses), these, although not having the law (of Moses), are a law (witnessing to God's moral law) to themselves" (vs. 14).

OK: Back in Deut. 31 were see Moses with a LAW contained in a book. Called the [Book of the Law!] We also see it placed in [the side] of the Ark of God! Not inside of the Ark of God, where His 10 Commandments Royal Universal Covenant was, & IS STILL LOCATED!!

The physical Ark of the Covenant (as important as it may be) is not what is important for dictating the matter of our salvation. It stands as a testimony of that covenant with Israel. Have you not read Hebrews? Hebrews 9 mentions the earthly tabernacle and the table of shewbread and also the ark, but then goes on to say that Jesus has opened the way to the heavenly tabernacle. The shadow gives way to the substance. Although you do make an interesting point that the Ten Commandments on stone and the book were in seperate places on the Ark. That may have some significance, but obviously the Ten Commandments were also written in the book and the stone was not the only place that they were written on, else we would not have Exodus 20 in our Bibles.

Paul also includes Col. 2:9-20 & Eph. 2:12-15 with these Laws of 'ordinances' and 'holy day' and 'the new moons, and the Sabbath day's'! These 'holy days' are the Sabbath of Moses law. NEVER ARE THEY THE 4TH COMMANDMENT OF THE TEN!!

I addressed this in my last post. Please see here.

It was the law of Moses that was nailed to the Cross! [ALL of the CEREMONIAL LAWS] that pointed to Christ's death on the Cross. These were all added because of sin. Gal. 3:19.

Yes! Agreed.

What were these law?? God does not leave us ignorant if we will search as He commanded. (2 Tim. 3:16-*Matt. 4:4-Matt. 28:20)

I have searched, and yet will continue to search, but I did not see Jesus say anything about keeping the Sabbath. I'm just saying.



God Bless,

~Josh

 

[Theofilus]

Along the same lines please also ponder on how it is that the Church could have been this unfaithful for so long since the 1st century and never have had a major move of God to correct it?

Are you sure there has never been a move of God to correct it? Beides the Seventh Day Adventism (which I believe was a move of God which has gone astray), which was officially founded in 1863 (source), a number of other groups have kept the seventh day Sabbath throughout history.

Seventh Day Pentecostle church (Established 1943)
Seventh Day Baptists (Formally founded in 1671, but first meeting possibly as early as 1617)
Puritans (16th century)
Christians in Abisinia (14th century, possibly earlier)
Ahtenians (8th - 12th centuries)
The Apostles (1st century)

(Click for source)

In the 5th century, the church historian Socrates Scholasticus (not to be confused with the Greek philosopher) wrote in his Historia Ecclesiastica (Church History), book 5:

"For although almost all churches throughout the world celebrate the sacred mysteries on the sabbath of every week, yet the Christians of Alexandria and at Rome, on account of some ancient tradition, have ceased to do this." (Source - Emphasis mine)
​

Sunday may eventually have been accepted by the majority of churches, but the sevnth day Sabbath has been kept by at least some Christians from the beginning.

 

[cyberjosh]

Are you sure there has never been a move of God to correct it? Beides the Seventh Day Adventism (which I believe was a move of God which has gone astray), which was officially founded in 1863 (source), a number of other groups have kept the seventh day Sabbath throughout history.

Seventh Day Pentecostle church (Established 1943)
Seventh Day Baptists (Formally founded in 1671, but first meeting possibly as early as 1617)
Puritans (16th century)
Christians in Abisinia (14th century, possibly earlier)
Ahtenians (8th - 12th centuries)
The Apostles (1st century)

(Click for source)

In the 5th century, the church historian Socrates Scholasticus (not to be confused with the Greek philosopher) wrote in his Historia Ecclesiastica (Church History), book 5:

"For although almost all churches throughout the world celebrate the sacred mysteries on the sabbath of every week, yet the Christians of Alexandria and at Rome, on account of some ancient tradition, have ceased to do this." (Source - Emphasis mine)
​

Sunday may eventually have been accepted by the majority of churches, but the sevnth day Sabbath has been kept by at least some Christians from the beginning.

I actually did come across that quote after I wrote that. I will indeed have to research early Church views on the Sabbath some more. And of course nothing is wrong with keeping the Sabbath. I still am not seeing the Scriptural proofs though for the necessity of it under the New Covenant. That is what I am focusing on right now.

P.S. I do love studying Church history though so I will be sure to research this more. Thank you for the references.

God Bless,

~Josh

 

[Theofilus]

I actually did come accross that quote after I wrote that. I will indeed have to research early Church views on the Sabbath some more. I still am not seeing the Scriptural proofs though. That is what I am focusing on right now.

God Bless,

~Josh

If you had clicked on the last link in the list (the apostles), you would have seen this:

And Paul, as his manner was, went in unto them, and three sabbath days reasoned with them out of the scriptures (Acts 17:2 KJV)​

Paul went to the synagogue every Sabbath, and so did Jesus

And they went into Capernaum; and straightway on the sabbath day he entered into the synagogue, and taught. (Mark 1:21 KJV)​

 

[Nathan]

It's not the requirement that matters, it's the principle behind it. I know I have said it before, but it bears repeating; a 24hour day is a 24hour day.

We claim that no where is it "written" yet we know that there are documents that we have no knowledge of contents(epistle to the Laodicians). Now I have no clue as to what else could have been written. Is there any more needed for salvation? NO.

So it's not a matter of discovering the "lawful" way of worshiping, but rather the benefit of honoring our God and His Holiness. The righteousness attainable through the observance of it is now unatainable. That does not negate the importance of it. But maybe it does for some?

For some it is unimportant because they just want a "ticket" to heaven, a relationship is not something they desire? What if you had married a woman. She was a beautiful woman. Loved you with a love that is undescibable. What if after living with this woman you got to know her more and more. She then tells you of a 'special' day. A day that means so much to her. Would you in turn say it did not matter? It may be a special day, but you want to make this day over here special instead?

What amazes me is that we claim "no rule for Sabbath worship", but we somehow hold to a 'secrete' rule for Sunday worship? Some say "does it matter"?

Well....does it? Does God care at all? Have we ever even asked Him? Or do we just follow in the "tradition" of men before us?

Jesus had something to say to those in His day that "blindly" followed tradition.