Abortion Question

[Classik]

The difference is those who sacrificed to baal were killing their children to honor their disgusting idol. Those who have abortion today do so to honor their disgusting selves in vainglorious magnification of the ego in place of God in the name of wanton hedonism.

I am pro-choice. A women has the right to choose to have sex. Once she lays down with a man, she has made her "choice" and so has he; let whosoever has sewn so reap the fruit of their deeds. And to those who love straw men relatively rare exceptions to rules, don't bother replying to this about rape. Rape is no excuse to open the floodgate of abortion on demand and even in cases of rape, two wrongs do not make a right. Let the raped woman give her child away if she cannot tolerate it. There are plenty of couples who would love to adopt.

ed Rape! This is indeed frightening. Murder is Murder! I don't know how people would feel about it. I don't remember ever thinking about this before. I agree with you. We need the Holy Spirit here, don't we?

 

[stovebolts]

my wife hears the cries of her son(she didnt abort him, but he died to due misscarriage). i do think deep down inside the mothers of aborted children due hear that cry. otherwise why the regret, the depression etc?

Good point Jason. However, not all women are like that. Some women would have a child hacked in half while other women would eat their own children to prevent themselves from starving... you know the passages... Aside from that, there are even mothers who put their infants in garbage cans.

My point is this. I believe that there are many women that have abortions because they don't fully understand what they are doing. They are acting on emotions of being overwhelmed as the life within them is being portrayed as non human. you've been on the forum awhile Jason and you know their arguments... Some would defend tooth and nail that a fetus is not a child up to X amount of months, and some mothers buy into this because they just don't know where else to turn.

God looks at our heart, he knows what we're going through. One woman may have an abortion and years later hear his cries, while another woman could have 10 abortions and never bat an eye.

My point is this. No abortion is ever done (that I'm aware of, or we're discussing) that is attached to a religious experience in the form of sacrifice. It's one thing to have an abortion while being ignorant that your actually killing a child, and an entirely different thing when you take a live infant, and watch it burn alive while hearing it's screams which will echo in your ears for years to come as it rolls into the burning coals.

No Jason, I think the screams that women hear from the two different acts are much, much different.

 

[reba]

My point is this. No abortion is ever done (that I'm aware of, or we're discussing) that is attached to a religious experience in the form of sacrifice. It's one thing to have an abortion while being ignorant that your actually killing a child, and an entirely different thing when you take a live infant, and watch it burn alive while hearing it's screams which will echo in your ears for years to come as it rolls into the burning coals.

When humanism is the religion the idol is self.

 

[handy]

When humanism is the religion the idol is self.

Exactly.

 

[stovebolts]

When humanism is the religion the idol is self.

Sure, but humanism doesn't burn their children as an offering to something else as to gain approval and blessings.

I'll be gone till next week, but lets talk about a larger percentage of young women who have abortions. Most of them are young and frightened and listen to the advice of others who tell them that they should have their child aborted.

How about I bring this a bit closer to home?...

When I had my child aborted, I was 17. The girl I got pregnant, I had no business sleeping with her. Not only because it was against God's law, but because of the circumstances which I'm not going to get into, I had absolutely no business sleeping with another man's girlfriend, even if she did come into my room naked that night.

When we found out she was pregnant, both of our worlds caved in on us. There wasn't an easy way around this, so after looking at other options, we figured that if we had the abortion, then that would cause the least damage, considering the damage already done. And yes, she did have another child, so it was complicated. And if you've ever notices, whenever sin gets involved, it usually is complicated because of all the self justification, like her coming into my room at 3 am naked and crawling into my bed. I should have had the strength to say no and push her out, but I didn't, so we try to cast blame and say, "But she came into my bed naked!".

I regret making the choice to abort our child, but it's something we both decided for the good of her other child and the father of that child. Hindsight is great, but it's just that, hindsight.

I could say a lot about our Christian perspective, and yes, my perspective has changed drastically through the years, but I wasn't the same person back then that I am now, and it's through the perspective of a 17 year old who was sleeping with a gal I knew I shouldn't have been sleeping with, and we both made at the time what we thought was the best decision available.

Is this humanism? I don't think so. It was a crisis. True, a crisis we brought upon ourselves and a crisis that shouldn't have happened, but it was what it was, and we did the best we knew at the time. Hindsight is a wonderful thing... If I knew then what I know now, the world would have been a different reality for me.

Was aborting our child wrong? With a resounding YES that echo's into the valleys from the highest mountain tops. But to say that this is the same as purposfully offering a breathing child into the arms of a god is plain nonesense.

 

[handy]

Jeff,

I realize that you're sharing a deeply personal and painful thing here...and if you've shared all you want that's ok...

But, I am curious as to why adoption didn't seem to be any kind of option for the situation.

As for whether it was humanism or a crises...you still see that it was selfish. It's hard...and I know you have, or at least I hope you have the realization that it is not unforgivable and that God can heal this as well.

As for the more theoretical debate of how abortion compares to offering a living crying baby to Molech...again I go back to what is done in ignorance.

Going by your age...when you were 17, you were probably quite ignorant of what exactly the girl had in her womb. Back then, there really was a common perception that a baby wasn't truly alive until it was born. But, we've come a long, long way now, and most girls today are well aware of the life in the womb...even if some want to deny it. As I shared, most of my daughter and her friends would never consider abortion and they're all only between the ages of 14-16.

But, ignorance worked in the minds of those who sacrificed to Molech as well. Those who did not know the Lord God of Israel and ignorantly and fearfully worshiped a god who demanded sacrifice. Human sacrifice wasn't all that uncommon back then, it was sort of the norm.

The fear of offending the god who could withhold rain, condemning the whole society to famine was palpitatingly real. To us, with our modern and scientific mind sets, it seems absurd, but it wasn't to them.

The true culprits...the one's who far and away committed abomination would be those Israelites that embraced the god, knowing that the Lord God would not only never ask that of His people, but also commanded them to never do so.

The culprits of today would be the abortion doctors...those who have studied life in the womb from conception and know doggone well that a fetus isn't "tissue"...

The lack of ignorance and hypocrisy regarding life in the womb and the value of that life is being exposed by the issue of "twin reduction"...where one twin is chosen to live and the other is chosen to die. In the same womb, two that share identical DNA...one is arbitrarily called a "baby" and allowed to live...the other is called a "conceptus" and aborted.

 

[jasoncran]

i am not above mercy in this matter. trust me if you want to hear of my forage into crime. its a lot of naivity etc that got into that sad chapter. satan is a deciever.

of no doubt women and men do that. there is another that i havent heard from in a long time that has done this. man i miss talking to her. she is saved and has been saved. she was in a bad relationship and manilupated to doing that.

 

[jasoncran]

Good point Jason. However, not all women are like that. Some women would have a child hacked in half while other women would eat their own children to prevent themselves from starving... you know the passages... Aside from that, there are even mothers who put their infants in garbage cans.

My point is this. I believe that there are many women that have abortions because they don't fully understand what they are doing. They are acting on emotions of being overwhelmed as the life within them is being portrayed as non human. you've been on the forum awhile Jason and you know their arguments... Some would defend tooth and nail that a fetus is not a child up to X amount of months, and some mothers buy into this because they just don't know where else to turn.

God looks at our heart, he knows what we're going through. One woman may have an abortion and years later hear his cries, while another woman could have 10 abortions and never bat an eye.

My point is this. No abortion is ever done (that I'm aware of, or we're discussing) that is attached to a religious experience in the form of sacrifice. It's one thing to have an abortion while being ignorant that your actually killing a child, and an entirely different thing when you take a live infant, and watch it burn alive while hearing it's screams which will echo in your ears for years to come as it rolls into the burning coals.

No Jason, I think the screams that women hear from the two different acts are much, much different.

sometime i hate the occultic sensitivity that i have. when monica arrives i will ask her of the dream of her older son. even siblings know. i cant explain that but they do.

my wife, well why she misscarried is a sad chapter.i disagree if they realise they did kill their own, the will in some part here that cry like mothers that have miscarried. one is accident and the other was intentional but the child still is loved when the pentant(sinner) repents.

 

[Kellig]

Hummm... You know I truly didn't think about the people who might be hurt by the question that I asked... That is the problem I didn't think.

When I asked the question, I didn't ask those who have already had an abortion and been forgiven for it. I was asking because, well it occurred to me when I was reading that passage that we sacrifice our babies today to what seems like to me the God of convenience. Handy makes a very valid point when she says those girls didn't love their babies less, they were pressured by society... for the good of the people.

A few years ago I was praying, I was very mad and judging a young girl who I knew had, had an abortion. I was asking God "Why would anyone kill your little ones Lord, they are your precious children. I was going on and on, about how Jesus should judge her and make her life hell for killing one of his little ones on purpose.

Then I heard a sweet uncondemning voice say to my heart. "You tried to kill one of my little ones."

I said, no way Lord I would never do that!!! I WOULD NEVER, NEVER TRY TO KILL ONE OF YOUR LITTLE ONES!

He said "You are one of my little ones."

Quite a few years earlier, I had tried to kill myself several times. He taught me two lessons that day. The first was quit judging people who are in desperate circumstances. The second was that He loved me and He considered me one of His little ones.

We all do stupid things when we are not following God, or even if we are saved but stray like from Jesus (that was my circumstance when I tried to commit suicide).

Thank you for sharing your testimony Stovebolts. I am sorry to say this, but it seems to me that you have not come to terms with either what you did when you agreed to have the baby aborted. Or the forgiveness that God offers.

We have all sinned and fallen short. Don't let Satan condemn you! God is the only one who has the right to condemn you and he chose to die for you instead.

Love, Kelli

 

[reba]

Stove,

Working at the local high school I have held some of the girls who cry because society forced an abortion on them... I am not cold to personal stories. I have lost 2 grandchildren to the practice. I know how it can harm the young girls. At least you cared and guys dont always care.

My comments on the humanism as a religion and the self idol is not to the individual but to this me first society.

 

[reba]

I know this may be shocking but, teenagers had sex back before the PILL! Condoms were not on the front shelf. No pill in my high school days and abortion where not legal. More of us girls thought of the risk of sex and it was avoided a bit more then today. We would "locker room" talk about "motherhood and sex", "fatherhood and sex". Parenthood and sex was in the same sentence.

 

[Rhea]

Stove,

My comments on the humanism as a religion and the self idol is not to the individual but to this me first society.

Humanism is not about "me first". That is not what it means or what it teaches or what it condones or espouses.

It would not be correct for someone to say, "Christianity is about human sacrifice" and it is not correct to say Humanism is abut "me first"

I would be happy to post on a thread about what humanism REALLY is, if anyone is interested.

 

[jasoncran]

sigh, rhea you missunderstand that statement from a christian world view. if God aint first its you first. that is the only two options. God is numero uno or you are. he is that jealous.

humanism puts man as the center and definition of what is good as there is no morality from an supernatural power. rather that a group of men decided what is good.

i'm sure humanists dont considered being gay worthy of death. lying, greed, and talking back to parents as God does. this doesnt mean we christian believe in killing them but just to show that God says this is how i think of it from hebraic thought, as in the days of the torah many of those things were stonable offenses.

so when you are forgiven you realise that God sent his son to DIE in your place. he took the death sentence for you! i am worthy of death for sodomy, lying and also theft, and witchraft, fornication, etc.

 

[Rhea]

sigh, rhea you missunderstand that statement from a christian world view. if God aint first its you first. that is the only two options. God is numero uno or you are. he is that jealous.

This has nothing to do with humanism, since humanism does not teach that man is first.

It is perfectly correct for you to say that Christians feel that without god first, then man is first to christians.

It would be not factual for you to say that humanists believe this because we are quite certain there are more than two options. "Man first" is not the humanist belief.

You can say it is the Christian belief, but you would be saying something that is not true if you say this is the humanist belief.

just a point of fact here, I'm sure you would not want to misrepresent someone else's beliefs by claiming they believe something that they certainly do not.

 

[BobbyKing]

Sacrificing a child is more than just outright murder, it is also an act of worship to the idol and both are abomination to the Lord. Abortion is a willful act of killing the human being (Baby) inside the womb of the mother and it is also an abomination to the Lord.

Looking at the sex-driven sins and consequences, I think we should go back to the pure Word of God to avoid these unnecessary headaches. Sex should be within marriage (for pleasure and production) and both parties must be prepared to parent the child if pregnancy should occur. I know it sounds 'old-fashion' and 'irrelevance' to some, but it is what I teach and remind my daughters all the time.

 

[reba]

Keep teaching Bobby King .... society is against you (us) and your (our) children..... Sex in marriage is just to simple !


Just dont ever forget to love them if/when they fall short.

 

[Classik]

The culprits of today would be the abortion doctors...those who have studied life in the womb from conception and know doggone well that a fetus isn't "tissue"...

This is lovely.

The society should help us better. If the society intervenes - the issue of abortion would be greatly reduced. Let us drop our own human knowledge...The fear of God is the beginning of wisdom.

I do not support abortion; and I do not condemn our darling women involved. At such a point a female loses her senses - this is her agony and desperation. (I know quite a few females don't care. We simply pray for them. I know one who just had six abortion issue. God still loves them.)

But not all abortion issues are wrong. Abortion is necessary when 'pregnancy' clearly risks the life of a mother. Under such emergencies the life of the mother is spared while the dangerous pregnancy ( as a result of certain biological problem, e.g., haemorrhage-related complications ) is terminated. At the end two lives are not lost.

Any act outside this is wrong.

 

[stovebolts]

Jeff,

I realize that you're sharing a deeply personal and painful thing here...and if you've shared all you want that's ok...

But, I am curious as to why adoption didn't seem to be any kind of option for the situation.

If you must know, I slept with my brothers girlfriend. This was my brother Mike who just died recently from drugs. He is the father of my step daughter Adrian, who is also on my facebook. His son Micheal, who you can find on my facebook was only several months old at the time. I had recently moved back home where my brother and his girlfriend were living. My brother was in Juvenile during the weekends, and their relationship wasn't a very good one.

As for whether it was humanism or a crises...you still see that it was selfish. It's hard...and I know you have, or at least I hope you have the realization that it is not unforgivable and that God can heal this as well.

It wasn't selfish. What I had done was wrong. I knew it then, and I knew it when we got caught (I let him beat the crap out of me). Later, when we found out she was pregnant, they were still together and her having my child would have utterly destroyed the family. The family didn't need another crisis. I had moved to California and they were trying to repair their differences.

King David had a man killed when he got a woman not his own pregnant... He killed him out of pride, for his honor was at stake. This decision had nothing to do with my honor, but rather it had to do with trying to right the horrible wrong I had caused.

At the time, we made the best decision we could. The lessor of two evils you might say. Again, not trying to justify our actions, abortion was wrong, we shouldn't have done it, but it made sense at the time. We did the best we knew how.

As for the more theoretical debate of how abortion compares to offering a living crying baby to Molech...again I go back to what is done in ignorance.

Going by your age...when you were 17, you were probably quite ignorant of what exactly the girl had in her womb. Back then, there really was a common perception that a baby wasn't truly alive until it was born. But, we've come a long, long way now, and most girls today are well aware of the life in the womb...even if some want to deny it. As I shared, most of my daughter and her friends would never consider abortion and they're all only between the ages of 14-16.

I didn't abort my child in ignorance. I knew this was a baby. My flesh and blood. Again, this was my brothers girlfriend. I knew what I did was wrong. Having the child would have ripped our family further apart.

But, ignorance worked in the minds of those who sacrificed to Molech as well. Those who did not know the Lord God of Israel and ignorantly and fearfully worshiped a god who demanded sacrifice. Human sacrifice wasn't all that uncommon back then, it was sort of the norm.

The fear of offending the god who could withhold rain, condemning the whole society to famine was palpitatingly real. To us, with our modern and scientific mind sets, it seems absurd, but it wasn't to them.

We all have our faith and understanding in something or someone. I / we knew what we was doing was wrong, and that our baby was a baby, not a piece of flesh.., but we tried to work it out the best we knew how. It wasn't an easy choice and we were trying to "right" a previous wrong. It doesn't change the fact that we aborted a child, but it didn't add more chaos to the entire family. I'm not trying to justify here Dora, I'm just saying that I don't think I'm the only one out there that has had an abortion under these types of circumstances.

I'm sure that the things you have said would fit some other people. Actually, I'm positive that it would. But it's not a one size fits all because we all have our different views and reasons and we all have varying understanding / value on an unborn child.

That's all I'm really trying to say Dora.

The true culprits...the one's who far and away committed abomination would be those Israelites that embraced the god, knowing that the Lord God would not only never ask that of His people, but also commanded them to never do so.

The culprits of today would be the abortion doctors...those who have studied life in the womb from conception and know doggone well that a fetus isn't "tissue"...

The lack of ignorance and hypocrisy regarding life in the womb and the value of that life is being exposed by the issue of "twin reduction"...where one twin is chosen to live and the other is chosen to die. In the same womb, two that share identical DNA...one is arbitrarily called a "baby" and allowed to live...the other is called a "conceptus" and aborted.

I think you hit that dead on. Well said.

 

[stovebolts]

Thank you for sharing your testimony Stovebolts. I am sorry to say this, but it seems to me that you have not come to terms with either what you did when you agreed to have the baby aborted. Or the forgiveness that God offers.

We have all sinned and fallen short. Don't let Satan condemn you! God is the only one who has the right to condemn you and he chose to die for you instead.

Love, Kelli

Hi Kelli,
I'm not a teenager anymore
I do understand the forgiveness God offers, and I also understand how God wants us to live and why he wants us to live the way we do as Christians. I don't just understand this forgiveness from an academic or doctorate point of view, but I understand it from a transformational experience as it has shaped a part of my character. Love is bound in suffering, but hatred abounds in the darkness.

I don't come from a sheltered background, but I know that God is full of grace and is worthy to be praised. As far as coming to terms, when you cut yourself, you have a scar that remains. The wound heals, but you've always got the scar. The thing about scars though, is you often forget they are there until something like this comes up.

Paul had a thorn, but he said that God's grace was sufficient for him. Was his thorn all the Christians he had put to death in his zeal for God before his eyes were opened? I don't know.. But I do know that God's grace is sufficient, and that God's great love is able bind the wounds and heal them.

I know many people who's hurt has turned to anger, and from anger to hatred for the things they've done. Only God's great love can transform a life in darkeness, to a life within the light. But one thing about the light, it hurts the eyes when the eyes are used to the darkness and it can take awhile for the eyes to adjust to the light, but it will happen if we remain in the light. It takes faith and hope, but most of all, it takes love and mercy to lead a person with a repentant heart.

 

[stovebolts]

Sacrificing a child is more than just outright murder, it is also an act of worship to the idol and both are abomination to the Lord. Abortion is a willful act of killing the human being (Baby) inside the womb of the mother and it is also an abomination to the Lord.

Looking at the sex-driven sins and consequences, I think we should go back to the pure Word of God to avoid these unnecessary headaches. Sex should be within marriage (for pleasure and production) and both parties must be prepared to parent the child if pregnancy should occur. I know it sounds 'old-fashion' and 'irrelevance' to some, but it is what I teach and remind my daughters all the time.

Bingo,
And this is what I'm teaching my children. Heck, my kids can't even date until they are 16.

By the time I heard what God had to say about sex before marriage, I had already been divorced. I didn't know why God didn't allow sex before marriage at the time, but by golly I knew what he said, and I wasn't going to make the same mistakes twice.

By the sheer fear of God, I obeyed that commandment, and it's been working out pretty well since then.

Reminds me of my other brother... he brought a gal home from the bar and slept with her the night he met her and all of a sudden they are 'dating'. Several months into this relationship and she goes out and sleeps with another guy and my brother gets mad.

So I say, "She slept with you on the first night... what were you expecting?"