n2thelight
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Guest, Join Papa Zoom today for some uplifting biblical encouragement! --> Daily Verses
About how many here hold some preterism views?
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farouk
Member
ditto.
Matthew 24 makes it clear that it's such a unique event in world history. The idea of gentiles being left quietly to their own devices during the Great Tribulation doesn't ring true. (My two cents'.)
Sorry, the destruction of Jerusalem and the temple already happened once when the Babylonians came and destroyed it.
So the destruction of one city does not qualify as the great tribulation.
Look at the language in luke -
25 "And there will be signs in the sun, in the moon, and in the stars; and on the earth distress of nations, with perplexity, the sea and the waves roaring; 26 men's hearts failing them from fear and the expectation of those things which are coming on the earth, for the powers of heaven will be shaken. 27 Then they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. 28 Now when these things begin to happen, look up and lift up your heads, because your redemption draws near." Luke 21:25-28
The great tribulation will be a world wide event that will effect the whole earth and many nations.
The word great in Matthew 24:21 -
Great - Strong's Number: 3173 - Megas
This where we get our word MEGA! It means HUGE!
The primary meaning -
Definition
- great
- of the external form or sensible appearance of things (or of persons)
- in particular, of space and its dimensions, as respects 1a
- mass and weight: great 1a
- compass and extent: large, spacious 1a
- measure and height: long 1a
- of the external form or sensible appearance of things (or of persons)
Look at this event from Revelation 6 where we see this same event -
12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo , there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood; 13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind. 14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together ; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places. 15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains; 16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: 17 For the great day of his wrath is come ; and who shall be able to stand ? Revelation 6:12-17
Remember in Matthew 24, where Jesus gave us this very same sign that would take place just before His coming, the sun, moon and stars. This is that event just before the great day of the wrath of the Lamb!
Same event, KINGS OF THE EARTH, AND THE GREAT MEN, AND MIGHTY MEN ALL OVER THE EARTH!
The great tribulation is a direct result of the AOD, which I have already proved, and you have admitted that the AOD could not possibly have happened in 70 AD, since you insist the 70th week was fulfilled in 34 AD.
JLB
n2thelight
Member
I still hold to the position that the temple was not totally destroyed.......
The Western Wall and its Tunnels
From the times of King Solomon to the return from the Babylonian exile and the Hasmonean period (tenth to first centuries BCE), the Temple Mount in Jerusalem was a relatively small platform built on top of Mount Moriah and its highest point was the Stone of Foundation; this was the site of the Temple. King Herod's greatest building project was to double the area of the Temple Mount by incorporating part of the hill to the northwest (which had to be leveled and on which he built the Antonia Fortress) and by filling up parts of the surrounding valleys. Herod transformed the Second Temple into an edifice of splendor and surrounded the Temple Mount on its four sides with massive retaining walls. The walls, founded on bedrock, were built of large ashlar stones with beautifully dressed margins. Each course was set back about 2 - 3 cm. from the course below it; the stones weigh some five tons each, the corner blocks tens of tons.
The Temple Mount, the buildings and the Temple itself were completely destroyed by the Roman legions in 70 CE. The lower part of the Temple Mount walls was preserved and its remains are still standing.
Long sections of the southern wall of the Temple Mount and its southwestern corner were exposed during the 1970s, furnishing a comprehensive picture of the monumental Herodian walls surrounding the Temple Mount and the vast, planned areas of public construction outside of them.
The western wall of the Temple Mount, inside today's Old City of Jerusalem, is the longest — 485 m. Most of its construction features, including the foundations and the four gates once located in it, are now known. Not far from the southwestern corner of the Temple Mount, the remains of “Robinson's Arch” can be seen projecting from the wall. This arch once supported a monumental staircase which gave access to the Temple Mount from the main street below it.
Best known of the remaining Herodian Temple Mount constructions is the traditional Jewish prayer area of the Western Wall (the “Wailing Wall”) which has stood exposed, above ground level, for two thousand years. The Six-Day War provided an opportunity to explore along the continuation of the Western Wall from the prayer plaza northwards.
Entering a tunnel at the prayer plaza, one turns northwards into a medieval complex of subterranean vaulted spaces and a long corridor with rooms on either side. Incorporated into this complex is a Roman and medieval structure of vaults, built of large dressed limestone. It includes an earlier Herodian room, constructed of well-dressed stones, with double openings and walls decorated with protruding pilasters. Ch. Warren, who surveyed the area in the 19th century, erroneously named it the “Masonic Hall.”
The vaulted complex ends at Wilson's Arch, named after the explorer who discovered it in the middle of the 19th century. The arch, supported by the Western Wall, was 12.8 m. wide and stood high above the present-day ground level. Josephus Flavius mentions a bridge which connected the Temple Mount with the Upper City to the west during the Second Temple period. This bridge once carried water via a conduit from Solomon's Pools; it was destroyed during the Jewish Revolt against Rome (66-70 CE) and rebuilt during the early Islamic period.
Beyond Wilson's Arch, a large cruciform hall, part of a Mamluk period construction, was cleared of debris and a large water cistern was removed, revealing the Herodian Western Wall in its full glory.
From this point, along the outer face of the Herodian western wall of the Temple Mount, a long narrow tunnel was dug slowly and with much care under the supervision of archeologists. As work progressed under the buildings of the present Old City, the tunnel was systematically reinforced with concrete supports. A stretch of the western wall — 300 m. long — was revealed in pristine condition, exactly as constructed by Herod.
At the end of this man-made tunnel, a 20 m. long section of a paved road and an earlier, rock-cut Hasmonean aqueduct leading to the Temple Mount were uncovered. Today one can proceed along it to a public reservoir and from there, a short new tunnel leads outside to the Via Dolorosa in the Muslim Quarter.
http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Archaeology/wall.html
The Western Wall and its Tunnels
From the times of King Solomon to the return from the Babylonian exile and the Hasmonean period (tenth to first centuries BCE), the Temple Mount in Jerusalem was a relatively small platform built on top of Mount Moriah and its highest point was the Stone of Foundation; this was the site of the Temple. King Herod's greatest building project was to double the area of the Temple Mount by incorporating part of the hill to the northwest (which had to be leveled and on which he built the Antonia Fortress) and by filling up parts of the surrounding valleys. Herod transformed the Second Temple into an edifice of splendor and surrounded the Temple Mount on its four sides with massive retaining walls. The walls, founded on bedrock, were built of large ashlar stones with beautifully dressed margins. Each course was set back about 2 - 3 cm. from the course below it; the stones weigh some five tons each, the corner blocks tens of tons.
The Temple Mount, the buildings and the Temple itself were completely destroyed by the Roman legions in 70 CE. The lower part of the Temple Mount walls was preserved and its remains are still standing.
Long sections of the southern wall of the Temple Mount and its southwestern corner were exposed during the 1970s, furnishing a comprehensive picture of the monumental Herodian walls surrounding the Temple Mount and the vast, planned areas of public construction outside of them.
The western wall of the Temple Mount, inside today's Old City of Jerusalem, is the longest — 485 m. Most of its construction features, including the foundations and the four gates once located in it, are now known. Not far from the southwestern corner of the Temple Mount, the remains of “Robinson's Arch” can be seen projecting from the wall. This arch once supported a monumental staircase which gave access to the Temple Mount from the main street below it.
Best known of the remaining Herodian Temple Mount constructions is the traditional Jewish prayer area of the Western Wall (the “Wailing Wall”) which has stood exposed, above ground level, for two thousand years. The Six-Day War provided an opportunity to explore along the continuation of the Western Wall from the prayer plaza northwards.
Entering a tunnel at the prayer plaza, one turns northwards into a medieval complex of subterranean vaulted spaces and a long corridor with rooms on either side. Incorporated into this complex is a Roman and medieval structure of vaults, built of large dressed limestone. It includes an earlier Herodian room, constructed of well-dressed stones, with double openings and walls decorated with protruding pilasters. Ch. Warren, who surveyed the area in the 19th century, erroneously named it the “Masonic Hall.”
The vaulted complex ends at Wilson's Arch, named after the explorer who discovered it in the middle of the 19th century. The arch, supported by the Western Wall, was 12.8 m. wide and stood high above the present-day ground level. Josephus Flavius mentions a bridge which connected the Temple Mount with the Upper City to the west during the Second Temple period. This bridge once carried water via a conduit from Solomon's Pools; it was destroyed during the Jewish Revolt against Rome (66-70 CE) and rebuilt during the early Islamic period.
Beyond Wilson's Arch, a large cruciform hall, part of a Mamluk period construction, was cleared of debris and a large water cistern was removed, revealing the Herodian Western Wall in its full glory.
From this point, along the outer face of the Herodian western wall of the Temple Mount, a long narrow tunnel was dug slowly and with much care under the supervision of archeologists. As work progressed under the buildings of the present Old City, the tunnel was systematically reinforced with concrete supports. A stretch of the western wall — 300 m. long — was revealed in pristine condition, exactly as constructed by Herod.
At the end of this man-made tunnel, a 20 m. long section of a paved road and an earlier, rock-cut Hasmonean aqueduct leading to the Temple Mount were uncovered. Today one can proceed along it to a public reservoir and from there, a short new tunnel leads outside to the Via Dolorosa in the Muslim Quarter.
http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Archaeology/wall.html
endtimesdeut32/70AD
Member
These various aspects and angles of disagreement would be better addressed if they were in seperate threads. That way, they could be more quickly reviewed for previous responses. For instance, the language describing "The great trubulation" was shown to be a hyperbole, The addressees were the generation and audience to whom he was speaking and the context was from their subjective perspectives.
JBL,
I also observe that your response of "the prince who is to come" as causing the sacrifice and oblation to cease in 70 AD, is different from your previous statement that Jesus ceased the sacrifice and oblation.
It seems too easy to change ones answers (or change the principles of inductive study) to make them fit ones indoctrination, beliefs or Paradigm. The same tendency was noted in the dismissing of scriptures in Genesis which spoke of the lifting of the curse on the earth and the statements by God after the flood that he would NOT curse the earth anew. The response was that God meant that he had never lifted the curse on the earth and was saying that he did not have to curse the earth again, because the original curse remained.
Its as if some have a paradigm (or even wish) of continued wrath, judgment, condemnation, and "end of the world" mentality, and then fit these literary records, which spoke of a different event, to support that mentality. And this mentality and spirit is in direct contrast and opposition with the statements and intents of Christ at his coming in John 3:17 and elsewhere.
Anyhow, until some of the aspects of these topics find their own threads, it seems there will be a continued repeating of information.
Here is a repeat of the examples of hyperbole in the OT.
It was indeed the greatest tribulation [testing and pressing] in the lives of those peoples [and the nation] who experienced it;
AND it forever established the ordinances and favor of the kingdom of Christ [Grace and truth] even against tremendous persecutions, pressings and testings. Those positive laws revealed and established through this time period remain established forever inviolate and can never be re-established through the same events, though perhaps tested, re-proved and opposed repeatedly. Of the increase of his government, there shall be no end. These events, and these ordinances, is the time of, and the establishing of the positive ordinances of the forever kingdom of God/Christ to all peoples languages and tongues prophesied in Dan 7:14,21.
JBL,
I also observe that your response of "the prince who is to come" as causing the sacrifice and oblation to cease in 70 AD, is different from your previous statement that Jesus ceased the sacrifice and oblation.
It seems too easy to change ones answers (or change the principles of inductive study) to make them fit ones indoctrination, beliefs or Paradigm. The same tendency was noted in the dismissing of scriptures in Genesis which spoke of the lifting of the curse on the earth and the statements by God after the flood that he would NOT curse the earth anew. The response was that God meant that he had never lifted the curse on the earth and was saying that he did not have to curse the earth again, because the original curse remained.
Its as if some have a paradigm (or even wish) of continued wrath, judgment, condemnation, and "end of the world" mentality, and then fit these literary records, which spoke of a different event, to support that mentality. And this mentality and spirit is in direct contrast and opposition with the statements and intents of Christ at his coming in John 3:17 and elsewhere.
Anyhow, until some of the aspects of these topics find their own threads, it seems there will be a continued repeating of information.
Here is a repeat of the examples of hyperbole in the OT.
It was indeed the greatest tribulation [testing and pressing] in the lives of those peoples [and the nation] who experienced it;
AND it forever established the ordinances and favor of the kingdom of Christ [Grace and truth] even against tremendous persecutions, pressings and testings. Those positive laws revealed and established through this time period remain established forever inviolate and can never be re-established through the same events, though perhaps tested, re-proved and opposed repeatedly. Of the increase of his government, there shall be no end. These events, and these ordinances, is the time of, and the establishing of the positive ordinances of the forever kingdom of God/Christ to all peoples languages and tongues prophesied in Dan 7:14,21.
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The only disagreement is you disagreeing with the plain straightforward language of Jesus and the Apostle John.
The Great Tribulation is just what it says Great, as in Huge and far reaching on a large scale.
To teach that the great tribulation as such as has not been, to be confined to Jerusalem, is totally and completely ridiculous.
JLB
Hope of glory
Member
JLB, I have answered you using scripture from Math.24 and the "very real words" of Jesus. Jesus told his first century disciples that THEY ("you will see the AOD) and that THEN
would be "great tribulation" and the only geographical area mentioned in the context is
JUDEA!
I'm sorry if you don't like Jesus' words brother.
We have already also been over "hyperbolic language" and how the same language used in Math.24 was also used in Daniel, isaiah, Joel, Amos ect....to describe judgment and tribulation.
Also Math.24 is the only place the phrase "great tribulation" is found. Show me in Rev.6:12-17 where the words "great tribulation" are found since you say it is the "same event".
I answered your question, accurately, and biblically, now please answer mine. Here it is again:
You say in Math.24 "this generation" (v34) refers to 1 single generation (the generation to see the AOD and Jesus coming in the clouds), and "all these things" in verse 34 refers to both the AOD and Jesus coming in the clouds.
But, in Luke 21 you say "this generation" (v32) refers to "multiple generations" (the generation to see the destruction of Jerusalem and the generation to see Jesus coming in the clouds), and the word "all" in verse 32 refers to the destruction of Jerusalem but not to Jesus' coming in the clouds.
It seems as though you are not being consistent in your interptetation with the words "this generation" (meaning singular and multiple generations), and the word "all" (meaning "all" and "some").
I ask you this one question regarding what I have posted and your interpretation "inconsistencies":
Question:
Why do interpret "this generation" in Math.24:34 as a "single" (one) generation, but not in Luke 21:32, in which you say "this generation" means "multiple" or more than one generation?
Thank you in advance JLB for your answer.
Hope of glory
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Deborah13
Member
and v 42 Jesus said to them, "Have you never read in the Scriptures: 'The stone which the builders rejected Has become the chief cornerstone. This was the Lord's doing, And it is marvelous in our eyes'?
The first quote answers the question in the second quote, I think.
The kingdom of God was taken from the Jewish nation. The kingdom of God was given to the Jew and the Gentile Church through the death and resurrection of our Lord. Was it not?
You have already admitted that the AOD does not take place in 70 AD!
You yourself stated that the 70 th week ended in 34 AD!
The events of the 70th week are not associated with the events of 70 AD.
The AOD happens in Judea from the Temple and results in the Great Tribulation which has been shown to you as world wide.
Luke 21 shows the effects of a world wide Tribulation, -
25 "And there will be signs in the sun, in the moon, and in the stars; and on the earth distress of nations, with perplexity, the sea and the waves roaring; 26 men's hearts failing them from fear and the expectation of those things which are coming on the earth, for the powers of heaven will be shaken. Luke 21:25-26
The signs that Jesus gave are for the generation that see the signs.
JLB
No such phrase as Jew and Gentile Church.
So, because the kingdom was taken from them, now, are you saying, they finished transgressing? No, they are still transgressing.
You actually made my point.
JLB
Hope of glory
Member
JLB, stop avoiding the question. Answer it please, you are making me repeat myself.
Here it is again:
You say in Math.24 "this generation" (v34) refers to 1 single generation (the generation to see the AOD and Jesus coming in the clouds), and "all these things" in verse 34 refers to both the AOD and Jesus coming in the clouds.
But, in Luke 21 you say "this generation" (v32) refers to "multiple generations" (the generation to see the destruction of Jerusalem and the generation to see Jesus coming in the clouds), and the word "all" in verse 32 refers to the destruction of Jerusalem but not to Jesus' coming in the clouds.
It seems as though you are not being consistent in your interptetation with the words "this generation" (meaning singular and multiple generations), and the word "all" (meaning "all" and "some").
I ask you this one question regarding what I have posted and your interpretation "inconsistencies":
Question:
Why do interpret "this generation" in Math.24:34 as a "single" (one) generation, but not in Luke 21:32, in which you say "this generation" means "multiple" or more than one generation?
(Your comment: "The signs that Jesus gave are for the generation that see the signs" is a most obvious statement, but does not address my question at all)
Please answer my question, thanks
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Do you presume to know what every Jew has done since the destruction of the Temple.
Here's what we do know, there is about to be a third temple built.
Do you know what significance does this has on end time prophecy being fulfilled?
JLB
If you want me to answer a question, then ask a question, don't form some question then put your own answer in place and say that is what I said.
Ask one question, if you want me to respond.
JLB
He is the corner stone Praise the Lord
1Pe 2:4 To whom coming, as unto a living stone, disallowed indeed of men, but chosen of God, and precious,
1Pe 2:5 Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.
1Pe 2:6 Wherefore also it is contained in the scripture, Behold, I lay in Sion a chief corner stone, elect, precious: and he that believeth on him shall not be confounded.
Do we look forward to the Temple of God or the temple of man?
Hope of glory
Member
The generation that sees the signs of the sun, moon and stars, will see the son of Man coming in the clouds.
Luke 21 has language that pertains to 70 AD, but as the scripture shows, the the sign of the sun, moon and stars is separated by the time-frame called the times of the Gentiles.
These scriptural signs are both common in Luke 21 and Matthew 24, and both apply to those who see these signs -
25 "And there will be signs in the sun, in the moon, and in the stars; and on the earth distress of nations, with perplexity, the sea and the waves roaring; 26 men's hearts failing them from fear and the expectation of those things which are coming on the earth, for the powers of heaven will be shaken. 27 Then they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. Luke 21:25-27
and -
29 "Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. Matthew 24:29-31
As you can see from both Matthew and Luke, the signs of the sun,moon and stars are seen by all the tribes of the earth and all the tribes of the earth that see these signs, will witness jesus Christ coming in the clouds with power and great glory.
What makes Luke unique is the phrase times of the Gentiles.
What makes Matthew unique is the phrase Abomination of Desolation.
JLB
There is only One who can make anything holy. The Holy One of Israel.
If He does not make it holy, then it will not be holy.
JLB