About how many here hold some preterism views?

[Deborah13]

That is what a person must understand about the phrase AOD in order to understand what Jesus taught in Matthew 24.

Why was the temple in 70 AD destroyed?

Can you explain to me how any future temple could be defiled?

 

[JLB]

That is what a person must understand about the phrase AOD in order to understand what Jesus taught in Matthew 24.

Why was the temple in 70 AD destroyed?

Can you explain to me how any future temple could be defiled?

This point is critical to understanding what Jesus taught, hence the Phrase "let the reader understand".

Do you see that the Abomination of Desolation happens in the 70 th week?

The sequence of events is laid as :

Messiah The Prince.

Messiah is cut off.

The city and sanctuary is destroyed.

The AOD, in the 70th week.

Is this evident to you?


JLB

 

[Hope of glory]

That is what a person must understand about the phrase AOD in order to understand what Jesus taught in Matthew 24.

Why was the temple in 70 AD destroyed?

Can you explain to me how any future temple could be defiled?

This point is critical to understanding what Jesus taught, hence the Phrase "let the reader understand".

Do you see that the Abomination of Desolation happens in the 70 th week?

The sequence of events is laid as :

Messiah The Prince.

Messiah is cut off.

The city and sanctuary is destroyed.

The AOD, in the 70th week.

Is this evident to you?


JLB

JLB you must stop trying to interpret Jesus' words by Daniel, and let our Lord Jesus interpret what Daniel said.
This statement and question will end all AOD confusion as to when it takes, by the authority of our Lord.

Statement: In Math.24:15 when Jesus said "... YOU shall see the AOD, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place...", he was of course speaking to his disciples.

Question: In Math.24:15 did Jesus tell his first century disciples whom he was speaking to, that THEY would see the AOD standing in the holy place? Yes or no

This is my one question JLB, can you answer it please and thank you.

Hope of glory

 

[Deborah13]

Do you see that the Abomination of Desolation happens in the 70 th week?

I see the 70th week, as verse 27.

Will you answer my question please?

 

[Hope of glory]

Deborah, Would you comment on this subject we are discussing in Daniel 9:26-27.

Hi JLB, I'll do my best to show you what I see, but I stress that this is what I see. Please bear with me as this is new to me.

Daniel 9:25-27

King James Version (KJV)

25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, andthreescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.

First there is a period of 7 weeks, then a period of 62 weeks, totally 69 weeks. I think these are spoken of together because they run concurrently, the first 7 weeks it appears that would be when the temple construction took place.

26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

At the end of the second period, which was for 62 weeks is when our Lord was crucified for us. Now we know that the temple and sanctuary was not destroy until about 40 years later. So there has to be a gap of time between the cross and
the destruction completed in 70 AD. We see also that there is war until the determined desolations are completed. 69 weeks have been fulfilled, approx. 30 AD

27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in
the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.


So now I see the final week of 7 years. This is where I see the people of the prince shall come, the destroying armies. This prince cannot be the Messiah for His covenant is eternal not for a week so this prince must be someone else. History says that not only were the Roman armies part of this siege but others. 3 1/2 years into the final 7 years it appears that is
when they had done enough damage that the sacrifices ceased but the war would continue another 3 1/2 to complete the destruction of it all. Like Jesus said, not one stone would be left...The abomination would have been that that was done to the temple (overspreading of abominations or 'wing') making it unholy (desolate). I see that the desolation in v27 is spoken if in v26 as being determined.
We can only imagine what types of abominations may have gone on by the destroyers just the bloodshed in the temple would have done this alone.

When v26 says "shall be a flood" this reminded me of the verse in Matthew 24 where it speak of the times of Noah and then goes on about one taken and one left. Well during the times of Noah the righteous were protected by the Lord and it was the evil ones that were taken away. This is how this time was. Jesus warned them to flee so that they would not be in
Jerusalem when this destruction took place. I think it was Josephus who wrote that during that time the Christians fled to a town named Pella.

I had already determined that the approx. 40 yrs. between the cross and the destruction of the temple was significant.
Like the 40 yrs between Egypt and the Promised Land. Time to get the Egypt out of them. But since I have studied this I also think this was the time of the Gentiles. Paul said there is no Jew or Gentile in Christ because of Him we are all of one family and one tree. I think the 'time' of the Gentiles was fulfilled in 70 AD. Now we are all the same in Christ.
This last part about the Gentiles is completely my own thoughts so I can't point you anywhere.

To get to this understanding I studied out where and when the futurist view (dispensational) came from and when it became popular and what was the view of the church before this time, the historical view.
That's it. I have changed my view. I know the history of the Jews has repeated itself many times but before, was before Jesus. Any temple that the Jews built now would not be Holy anymore than the one destroyed by the Lord in 70 AD. They can't undo what Jesus did no matter what they build now. And so if it would not be Holy how could it be violated no matter who stood in it?

Blessings to you, JLB

Deborah13

I am glad to see that you have rejected the "futurist" position. "Hope deferred makes the heart sick"

You are right in saying that the 70th week is not future, but why do you say that the 70th week was in 70ad?
70ad far exceeds the 490 year scope of Daniels prophecy, so why do you insert a "gap" between the 69th and 70th week?

 

[Deborah13]

but why do you say that the 70th week was in 70ad?
70ad far exceeds the 490 year scope of Daniels prophecy, so why do you insert a "gap" between the 69th and 70th week?

Historically it appears that the actual start time of the building of the temple would have been around 457 BC. If the first 7 wks commenced then and then another 62 wks would put the wks at 69 wks total when Messiah was cut off in about 30 AD. That would be 483 yrs. We know that the city and temple destruction was finished in 70 AD. That last week would have had to have occurred the 7 yrs. just prior to 70 AD.

This is just my own thoughts from here on.
That gap or that generation between the Messiah cut off and 70 AD I believe was the time of the Gentiles. The church was young but growing. This was the time of spring 32 "Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:"
You've already read my other thoughts about the 40 generation.

How do you line up the years?

 

[Deborah13]

This point is critical to understanding what Jesus taught, hence the Phrase "let the reader understand".

JLB, I had forgotten about this, you may find it interesting. This form is something we had discussed on another thread.

Historicist William H. Shea notes that verses 25-27 forms a chiasm:[2]
A. Daniel 9:25a (ASV) Jerusalem Construction:Know therefore and discern, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem
B. Daniel 9:25b Anointed one:unto the anointed one, the prince, shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks:
C. Daniel 9:25c Jerusalem Construction:it shall be built again, with street and moat, even in troublous times.
D. Daniel 9:26a Anointed one:And after the threescore and two weeks shall the anointed one be cut off, and shall have nothing:
C'. Daniel 9:26b Jerusalem Destroyed:and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and even unto the end shall be war; desolations are determined.
B'. Daniel 9:27a Anointed one:And he shall make a firm covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease;
A'. Daniel 9:27b Jerusalem Destroyed:and upon the wing of abominations shall come one that maketh desolate; and even unto the full end, and that determined, shall wrath be poured out upon the desolate.

A chiastic structures is a literary device to place an emphasis upon the statements at the center of the chiasm. In this chiasm the central point or apex is the death of the Messiah. Thus the chiastic structure of this prophecy emphasizes the importance of His death.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prophecy_of_Seventy_Weeks#Literary_structure

 

[George Muller]

but why do you say that the 70th week was in 70ad?
70ad far exceeds the 490 year scope of Daniels prophecy, so why do you insert a "gap" between the 69th and 70th week?

Historically it appears that the actual start time of the building of the temple would have been around 457 BC. If the first 7 wks commenced then and then another 62 wks would put the wks at 69 wks total when Messiah was cut off in about 30 AD. That would be 483 yrs. We know that the city and temple destruction was finished in 70 AD. That last week would have had to have occurred the 7 yrs. just prior to 70 AD.

This is just my own thoughts from here on.
That gap or that generation between the Messiah cut off and 70 AD I believe was the time of the Gentiles. The church was young but growing. This was the time of spring 32 "Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:"
You've already read my other thoughts about the 40 generation.

How do you line up the years?

Did you know that the fig tree produces fruit twice in a summer season? Early then late. Early rain and then a latter rain of figs

 

[JLB]

That is what a person must understand about the phrase AOD in order to understand what Jesus taught in Matthew 24.

Why was the temple in 70 AD destroyed?

Can you explain to me how any future temple could be defiled?

This point is critical to understanding what Jesus taught, hence the Phrase "let the reader understand".

Do you see that the Abomination of Desolation happens in the 70 th week?

The sequence of events is laid as :

Messiah The Prince.

Messiah is cut off.

The city and sanctuary is destroyed.

The AOD, in the 70th week.

Is this evident to you?


JLB

JLB you must stop trying to interpret Jesus' words by Daniel, and let our Lord Jesus interpret what Daniel said.
This statement and question will end all AOD confusion as to when it takes, by the authority of our Lord.

Statement: In Math.24:15 when Jesus said "... YOU shall see the AOD, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place...", he was of course speaking to his disciples.

Question: In Math.24:15 did Jesus tell his first century disciples whom he was speaking to, that THEY would see the AOD standing in the holy place? Yes or no

This is my one question JLB, can you answer it please and thank you.

Hope of glory

No. Here are the scriptures that make it clear that Jesus was teaching His disciples privately, so that they would teach their disciples all things that He taught them.

To think that the things that Jesus taught His disciples privately were only for them and would never be taught to any other disciples is ridicules.

as he said in the Great Commission - 19 Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age." Amen. Matthew 28:19 - 20

Furthermore, in the same discourse, Jesus makes it clear that all who read these words about His Coming, are to watch FOR THE SIGNS THAT HE GAVE THAT WOULD HAPPEN JUST BEFORE HIS RETURN.

Watch therefore, for you do not know when the master of the house is coming--in the evening, at midnight, at the crowing of the rooster, or in the morning-- 36 lest, coming suddenly, he find you sleeping. 37 And what I say to you, I say to all: Watch!" Mark 13:35-37


So the answer is No!


JLB

 

[JLB]

JLB you must stop trying to interpret Jesus' words by Daniel, and let our Lord Jesus interpret what Daniel said. This statement and question will end all AOD confusion as to when it takes, by the authority of our Lord.

Jesus Christ Himself directed us to UNDERSTAND from the words that Daniel wrote.

Daniel, wrote as a Prophet, words that He was given by the Lord Jesus.

The Lord sent Gabriel to personally deliver this important prophecy to Daniel.

The way to understand what Jesus was teaching us in Matthew 24, is to obey what Jesus directed us to understand in Daniel.

Based on Daniel 9:26-27, it is clear that the Lord laid out the future events so that we could know and understand.


26 After those 62 weeks the Messiah will be cut off and will have nothing. The people of the coming prince will destroy the city and the sanctuary. The end will come with a flood, and until the end there will be war; desolations are decreed.

Temple destroyed - 70 AD


27 He will make a firm covenant with many for one week, but in the middle of the week he will put a stop to sacrifice and offering. And the abomination of desolation will be on a wing of the temple until the decreed destruction is poured out on the desolator."

Abomination of Desolation - 70 th week.

... destruction is poured out on the desolator." Jesus personally destroys him.

[ Note: Titus was not destroyed as he returned to Rome and became Emperor.]

The Abomination of Desolation happens in the 70 th week.

The Abomination of Desolation happens after the events of 70 AD.


JLB

 

[JLB]

This point is critical to understanding what Jesus taught, hence the Phrase "let the reader understand".

JLB, I had forgotten about this, you may find it interesting. This form is something we had discussed on another thread.

Historicist William H. Shea notes that verses 25-27 forms a chiasm:[2]
A. Daniel 9:25a (ASV) Jerusalem Construction:Know therefore and discern, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem
B. Daniel 9:25b Anointed one:unto the anointed one, the prince, shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks:
C. Daniel 9:25c Jerusalem Construction:it shall be built again, with street and moat, even in troublous times.
D. Daniel 9:26a Anointed one:And after the threescore and two weeks shall the anointed one be cut off, and shall have nothing:
C'. Daniel 9:26b Jerusalem Destroyed:and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and even unto the end shall be war; desolations are determined.
B'. Daniel 9:27a Anointed one:And he shall make a firm covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease;
A'. Daniel 9:27b Jerusalem Destroyed:and upon the wing of abominations shall come one that maketh desolate; and even unto the full end, and that determined, shall wrath be poured out upon the desolate.

A chiastic structures is a literary device to place an emphasis upon the statements at the center of the chiasm. In this chiasm the central point or apex is the death of the Messiah. Thus the chiastic structure of this prophecy emphasizes the importance of His death.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prophecy_of_Seventy_Weeks#Literary_structure

So Jesus sets up the Abomination of Desolation?

No thank you.

Messiah was cut off. - 33 AD

Temple and city destroyed. - 70 AD

Prince who is to come, AOD - 70 th week.


JLB

 

[Deborah13]

Did you know that the fig tree produces fruit twice in a summer season? Early then late. Early rain and then a latter rain of figs

Clever George, ;)
I didn't know that...but I have heard of seasonal rains.

 

[Deborah13]

So Jesus sets up the Abomination of Desolation?

I don't agree that last point either, the last point should be a opposite in my view, which you would have seen in my post #37. Which you may not have read, it is quite long.

the prince who came would have been Titus, I believe, historically he was the one in charge of the Roman army and again we can read Josephus to learn about him and the army being in the temple. As I read it Titus really tried to stop his soldiers from desecrating it but it was to late.

 

[Hope of glory]

but why do you say that the 70th week was in 70ad?
70ad far exceeds the 490 year scope of Daniels prophecy, so why do you insert a "gap" between the 69th and 70th week?

Historically it appears that the actual start time of the building of the temple would have been around 457 BC. If the first 7 wks commenced then and then another 62 wks would put the wks at 69 wks total when Messiah was cut off in about 30 AD. That would be 483 yrs. We know that the city and temple destruction was finished in 70 AD. That last week would have had to have occurred the 7 yrs. just prior to 70 AD.

This is just my own thoughts from here on.
That gap or that generation between the Messiah cut off and 70 AD I believe was the time of the Gentiles. The church was young but growing. This was the time of spring 32 "Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:"

You've already read my other thoughts about the 40 generation.

How do you line up the years?

Answer
457bc-34ad
457bc-408cb (1 week) "Jerusalem restored"
408bc-26ad (62 weeks) "until Messiah the Prince"
It was 483 years from the decree to restore in 457bc until Jesus walked down in the river Jordan to be baptized (until Messiah the Prince) 26ad
The 70week began as Jesus walked out of the river Jordan
For 1 week Jesus confirmed the (new) covenant (already promised in Jer.31) with "many" Jews
In the midst if the 70th week Messia was cut off, and by his perfect sacrife he caused all animal sacrifices and oblations to "cease" (rendering them unnecessary)
Jesus had confirmed the covenant for 3.5 years until his death
After his resurrection, the Spirit of Christ was now deposited within believers
For the remaining 3.5 years it was "Christ in his Church" which continued to "confirm the (new) covenant" with the Jews only.
The 70 years culminated in the stoning of Stephen in 34 ad.
The gospel would now go unto Gentiles also.

With this interpretation, one can stay within the "limits" of the 490 year scope of this prophecy. There us no reason for a gap, and we must not insert one.

It is evident that the destruction of Jerusalem is "parenthetical" to this prophecy, although reference to it is made, it was not part of the 70 weeks.

Jesus made this clear when he said to his disciples ...YOU shall see the AOD....(math.24:15) and "this generation shall not pass until ALL THESE THINGS (including the AOD) be fulfilled" (Math.24:30

 

[Deborah13]

... destruction is poured out on the desolator." Jesus personally destroys him.

the Hebrew says for 'he' = mshmm = one-making-desolate

But for 'poured upon the desolate' = shmm = one-being-desolate = verb

'he' makes it desolate, what did he make desolate, the temple.
http://www.scripture4all.org/OnlineInterlinear/OTpdf/dan9.pdf

Your translation says, 'desolator' but the Hebrew does not translate that way.

In Matthew 23:38 Jesus says to the Pharisees....

38 Behold, your house is being left to you desolate!

If I were to spank a child, I would be making him sad.
But I am not the one who is being sad, he is.


Nehemiah, who lived about fifty years before the coming of Christ, declared the time of the Messiah, as signified by Daniel, could not be protracted longer than those fifty years (r). The Jews also say the world is divided into six parts, and the.
.((r) Apud Grotium de Ver. Rel. Christ l. 5. sect. 14

http://gill.biblecommenter.com/daniel/9.htm

last part is from Daniel to the Messiah. The Messiah came but they refused Him.

 

[Hope of glory]

This point is critical to understanding what Jesus taught, hence the Phrase "let the reader understand".

Do you see that the Abomination of Desolation happens in the 70 th week?

The sequence of events is laid as :

Messiah The Prince.

Messiah is cut off.

The city and sanctuary is destroyed.

The AOD, in the 70th week.

Is this evident to you?

JLB

JLB you must stop trying to interpret Jesus' words by Daniel, and let our Lord Jesus interpret what Daniel said.

This statement and question will end all AOD confusion as to when it takes, by the authority of our Lord.

Statement: In Math.24:15 when Jesus said "... YOU shall see the AOD, spoken of by
Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place...", he was of course speaking to his disciples.

Question: In Math.24:15 did Jesus tell his first century disciples whom he was speaking to, that THEY would see the AOD standing in the holy place? Yes or no

This is my one question JLB, can you answer it please and thank you.

Hope of glory

No. Here are the scriptures that make it clear that Jesus was teaching His disciples privately, so that they would teach their disciples all things that He taught them.

To think that the things that Jesus taught His disciples privately were only for them and would never be taught to any other disciples is ridicules.

as he said in the Great Commission -
19 Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,
20 teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age." Amen. Matthew 28:19 - 20

Furthermore, in the same discourse, Jesus makes it clear that all who read these words about His Coming, are to watch FOR THE SIGNS THAT HE GAVE THAT WOULD HAPPEN JUST BEFORE HIS RETURN.
Watch therefore, for you do not know when the master of the house is coming--in the evening, at midnight, at the crowing of the rooster, or in the morning-- 36 lest, coming suddenly, he find you sleeping.
37 And what I say to you, I say to all: Watch!" Mark 13:35-37

So the answer is No!

JLB

Response

You said "No. Here are the scriptures that make it clear that Jesus was teaching His
disciples privately, so that they would teach their disciples all things that He taught them"

I agree, Jesus told his disciples that "THEY" would see the AOD (Math.24:15) "SO THAT" the disciples would teach others this truth.

You said "as he said in the Great Commission - 19 Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you; and lo, I am

with you always, even to the end of the age." Amen. Matthew 28:19 - 20"

I also agree. The disciples were commanded to teach "all things that Jesus commanded". One of those "things" was the truth that Jesus said "that generation" ( his disciples of the 1st century) would see the AOD (Math.24:15)

You said "To think that the things that Jesus taught His disciples privately were ONLY for them and would never be taught to any other disciples is ridicules"

To this I also agree. The things which Jesus taught were FOR HIS DISCIPLES whom he spoke to and also are for all believers. (The words of Jesus had a "historical application" fo
his first century hearers and also have a "prophetic" application for the Church in all generations.

So according to your words "To think that the things that Jesus taught His disciples privately were ONLY for them and would never be taught to any other disciples is ridicules", here is my next question.

How did Jesus' words "YOU shall see the AOD... stand in the holy place..." apply to his 1st century disciples who he spoke these words to?
Do you actually believe that when Jesus told his disciples that THEY would see (YOU shall see) the AOD, that he actually MEANT that they would NOT see it?

 

[Deborah13]

For the remaining 3.5 years it was "Christ in his Church" which continued to "confirm the (new) covenant" with the Jews only.

I have looked at it this same way and I think it could be a valid interpretation, I too was thinking of that second 3.5 yrs as ending with the stoning of Stephen.
It was after this that Paul/Damascus road happened and the Gospel brought to the Gentiles. I been thinking about for the last couple of hours and looking at the Hebrew but I don't know the grammar rules. I'll have to look further.

But I can see that "on the wing of abominations" could be seen as speaking of future. In other words rather like "waiting in the wings" or "wing as an extended arm even".

 

[JLB]

So Jesus sets up the Abomination of Desolation?

I don't agree that last point either, the last point should be a opposite in my view, which you would have seen in my post #37. Which you may not have read, it is quite long.

the prince who came would have been Titus, I believe, historically he was the one in charge of the Roman army and again we can read Josephus to learn about him and the army being in the temple. As I read it Titus really tried to stop his soldiers from desecrating it but it was to late.

Titus was not destroyed, but rather returned home a conquering hero and went on to be Emporer.

So it is clear he is not the one making desolate.

Again, the AOD occurs after 70 AD according to Daniels prophecy.

If you refuse to see that simple truth, then you are free to wander about always trying to make sense of things, when the key has been given to you by Jesus.

JLB

 

[Lloyd]

What concerns me slightly is why so many of the preterist views hang on a historian, Josephus. It's as if they try to validate scripture against his writings - they make the Bible fit what he wrote. The Bible is our authority, not this historian.

If this Josephus character was such a significant player in Bible history, then I'm pretty sure he may have had a place in the Bible itself as according to preterists, this guy actually writes about the entire end times in vivid detail. After all, it's not like Satan to twist the truth ever so slightly is it?

Pick up your Bible and stop using your Bible to validate this historian.

 

[smaller]

What concerns me slightly is why so many of the preterist views hang on a historian, Josephus. It's as if they try to validate scripture against his writings - they make the Bible fit what he wrote. The Bible is our authority, not this historian.

If this Josephus character was such a significant player in Bible history, then I'm pretty sure he may have had a place in the Bible itself as according to preterists, this guy actually writes about the entire end times in vivid detail. After all, it's not like Satan to twist the truth ever so slightly is it?

Pick up your Bible and stop using your Bible to validate this historian.

Any historical critical method of approach to scripture has severe issues, least of which is that history for the most part is entirely subjective. We all know the victors write the history books as well. And that reams of data is destroyed if not in the interests of the victors.

IN short, nearly worthless. And agree even moreso on trying to hang any end time guessing on Josephus.

s