Abraham, Saved by Belief Only?

[Jethro Bodine]

Great wisdom brother. Keep it up!!

Thanks, bro.

 

[JLB]

Which definition of 'justified' are you referring to? The definition Paul uses, or the definition James uses?:

"21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered up Isaac his son on the altar?" (James 2:21 NASB)

The definition Paul uses is the definition that James uses.

Faith without the work of obedience is incomplete...

as Paul plainly says believe in your heart and confess with your mouth.

9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.
10 For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. Romans 10:9-10


Like taking a quarter and splitting down the middle where you have a head and a tail...

You wont buy a thing with a half a quarter, as it is a complete quarter that has any value at all.

Likewise an incomplete faith, a faith that does not obey, is incomplete and is dead, just as a body without a spirit is dead.

Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead. James 2:17

For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also. James 2:26

You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe--and tremble! But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead? James 2:19-20

Are you teaching us demons are righteous, because they believe.


Believing all by itself gives you the same result as demons have.

22 Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect?
23 And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, "Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness." And he was called the friend of God. James 2:22-23

Abraham obeyed when he left his fathers house...

Abraham had walked in obedience to the Voice of God already when the scripture says Abraham believed God...

Your doctrine is incomplete because you refuse to reconcile the whole account of Abraham's life and what the scriptures teach, in favor of an incomplete doctrine that teaches an incomplete Gospel.

By faith Abraham obeyed when he was called to go out to the place which he would receive as an inheritance. And he went out, not knowing where he was going. Hebrews 11:8

Abraham was justified when he offered Isaac...

Abraham walked in the obedience of faith, that results in salvation by faith.

Believing all by itself results in the same salvation that demons have... Even the demons believe--and tremble! James 2:19



JLB

 

[Jethro Bodine]

The definition Paul uses is the definition that James uses.

Then you put them in direct contradiction to each other.

Let's insert Paul's use of the word 'justified' into James' teaching and we'll see how you do just that:

"24 You see that a person is justified (made righteous) by what he does and not by faith alone." (James 2:24 NIV)

"5 However, to the man who does not work but trusts God who justifies the wicked (makes them righteous through their trust, not their work), his faith is credited as righteousness." (Romans 4:5 NIV)

You can't have it both ways. Either faith by itself makes a person righteous, or faith in conjunction with what they do makes us righteous. But this contradiction does not exist if you understand from the context that James is using the word 'justified' in regard to showing oneself to be righteous by what they do, not making oneself righteous by what they do:

"Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by what I do." (James 2:18 NIV)

 

[dadof10]

I wish all of us were more careful to distinguish between 'justification' and 'salvation' in these 'what saves' threads.

Justification is entirely on the basis of trusting God (Romans 4:5 NASB).

Salvation, on the other hand, is given on the Day of Wrath to those who have works as the evidence of that faith (James 2:18 NASB).

Now I will read the rest of the OP

Justification is by faith, all by itself.
Salvation is granted to those who show they have that faith by what they do.
Dead faith--a 'faith' that can not be seen in what it does--can not save. For a person to be saved on the Day of Wrath, they must be, both, justified (made righteous) by faith, and justified (shown to be righteous) by works.

Justification is a process, not a one time event, as is salvation. The case of Abraham makes this point very well.

Abraham was justified, as Paul says, in Gen.15:6

"For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. For what does the scripture say? 'Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness'" (Romans 4:2-3 RSV)

He was also justified before this in Gen. 12:1-4. Hebrews says:

"By faith Abraham obeyed when he was called to go out to a place which he was to receive as an inheritance; and he went out, not knowing where he was to go." (Heb 11:8 RSV)

This is a clear example of obedient faith, the faith that justifies. But, he was also justified after he "believed God", in Gen. 22, when he offered Issac on the altar.

"Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he offered his son Isaac upon the altar? You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by works, and the scripture was fulfilled which says, "Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness"; and he was called the friend of God." (Jas 2:21-23 RSV)

I was reluctant to post the last example because I know your view of James 2, "said" faith as opposed to "saving" faith and all that. But certainly Abraham was justified in Gen. 12, long before his faith was "reckoned to him as righteousness". We know this because the author of Hebrews says the "by faith Abraham obeyed". It must be that he had a "saving faith" in Gen. 12 and was justified. He was also justified again (reckoned righteous) in Gen. 15, when he "believed God". Hence, justification is a process, not a one time event. I know you believe that salvation can be lost, then regained. Do you believe the same about justification, or do you hold that it's a one time event?

 

[dadof10]

Then you put them in direct contradiction to each other.

Let's insert Paul's use of the word 'justified' into James' teaching and we'll see how you do just that:

"24 You see that a person is justified (made righteous) by what he does and not by faith alone." (James 2:24 NIV)

"5 However, to the man who does not work but trusts God who justifies the wicked (makes them righteous through their trust, not their work), his faith is credited as righteousness." (Romans 4:5 NIV)

You can't have it both ways. Either faith by itself makes a person righteous, or faith in conjunction with what they do makes us righteous. But this contradiction does not exist if you understand from the context that James is using the word 'justified' in regard to showing oneself to be righteous by what they do, not making oneself righteous by what they do:

"Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by what I do." (James 2:18 NIV)

They aren't contradicting each other if we interpret the word "works" properly, as "works of the law" not "all deeds done"....and here we go....

 

[smaller]

Romans 4:
6 Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,

 

[dadof10]

Then you put them in direct contradiction to each other.

Let's insert Paul's use of the word 'justified' into James' teaching and we'll see how you do just that:

"24 You see that a person is justified (made righteous) by what he does and not by faith alone." (James 2:24 NIV)

"5 However, to the man who does not work but trusts God who justifies the wicked (makes them righteous through their trust, not their work), his faith is credited as righteousness." (Romans 4:5 NIV)

One more point here. The word for "what he does" in the NIV translation is "ergon", same as in Rom. 4 and everywhere else. It seems as thought the translators of the NIV were engaging in a little bit of interpretation. The word should properly be "works" (as in "of the law") instead of "what he does" (as in "all deeds"). It's translated as "works" everywhere else and in every other version.

 

[dadof10]

Romans 4:
6 Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,

Here is the context of Rom. 4:

"Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin. Commeth this blessedness upon the circumcision only, or upon the uncircumcision also? for we say that faith was reckoned to Abraham for righteousness. How was it then reckoned? when he was in circumcision, or in uncircumcision? Not in circumcision, but in uncircumcision." (v.7-10 KJV)

Notice Paul is making a direct connection between "works" and circumcision, even going so far as to say that Abraham's "reckoned righteousness" was "not in circumcision, but in uncircumcision". As I've been saying, by the word "works", Paul means "works of the law", not "all deeds". "Works" does not include baptism, keeping the commandments, charity or any other good deed that the Bible specifically says "saves".

 

[smaller]

Here is the context of Rom. 4:

"Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin. Commeth this blessedness upon the circumcision only, or upon the uncircumcision also? for we say that faith was reckoned to Abraham for righteousness. How was it then reckoned? when he was in circumcision, or in uncircumcision? Not in circumcision, but in uncircumcision." (v.7-10 KJV)

Notice Paul is making a direct connection between "works" and circumcision, even going so far as to say that Abraham's "reckoned righteousness" was "not in circumcision, but in uncircumcision". As I've been saying, by the word "works", Paul means "works of the law", not "all deeds". "Works" does not include baptism, keeping the commandments, charity or any other good deed that the Bible specifically says "saves".

Believers have turned many matters of faith into laws with penalties, that don't exist. These merely turn faith into potential condemnation. No one "works" themselves into a sinless condition and none of such works are sufficient for eternal life. God owes no man anything based on man's works. He is not "indebted" to us on the basis of works.

Righteousness is an attributed matter, Him to us.

Paul points, specifically, in Romans 4, that works are not what saves us.

Romans 4:
6 Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,

Seeing that every last one of you "works for salvation" adherents also openly dangle potential wrath above believers, we may as well pick this one up as well:

1 Thessalonians 5:9
For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

24 Faithful is he that calleth you, who also will do it.

What God in Christ will do is this:

Philippians 3:21
Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself.

And it was exactly this same belief, that Abraham held, and showed, in his own life.

 

[dadof10]

Paul points, specifically, in Romans 4, that works are not what saves us.

Romans 4:
6 Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,

Let's see if I can get you to stick to the topic. What does the word "works" mean here and why?

 

[smaller]

Let's see if I can get you to stick to the topic. What does the word "works" mean here and why?

Your attempt was to direct away from "iniquities and sins" and redeploy to a section regarding works of the law, via circumcision. The ploy doesn't work.

Romans 4:
6 Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,

7 Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.

I'll also remind you that I started this thread with the specific intention to show "what" Abraham believed, wherein the righteousness of faith, was attributed or imputed to him.

And it is the exact same belief that Paul held out to the church, in Philippians 3:21, above.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

One more point here. The word for "what he does" in the NIV translation is "ergon", same as in Rom. 4 and everywhere else. It seems as thought the translators of the NIV were engaging in a little bit of interpretation. The word should properly be "works" (as in "of the law") instead of "what he does" (as in "all deeds"). It's translated as "works" everywhere else and in every other version.

I normally quote the NASB, but for some reason the online Bible I use keeps resetting back to NIV. But anyway, this makes the contradiction all the more evident if one insists that justified only has one meaning and James and Paul together are using the word to mean 'make' one righteous.

"24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone." (James 2:24 NASB)

I'm not able to spend much time on line today. So I can't address much at this time.

 

[dadof10]

Your attempt was to direct away from "iniquities and sins" and redeploy to a section regarding works of the law, via circumcision. The ploy doesn't work.

Romans 4:
6 Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,

7 Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.

Or your attempt was to distract away from what Paul means by "works" with talk about "iniquities and sins". You posted a verse assuming works means "all deeds" (at least I think that's your point). All I want you to do is tell me why I should read "baptism, charity, etc." into the word "works" in Paul's letters, that's all.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

They aren't contradicting each other if we interpret the word "works" properly, as "works of the law" not "all deeds done"....and here we go....

Well, you'd have a point if Paul compared faith with other works besides works of the law in his teaching on what can and can not justify a person. As it is, he contrasts works of the law with believing God. See the point? Believing what God said has nothing to do with works of any kind, in or out of the law. It stands alone as that which can make a person legally righteous (justified) before God.

"5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness" (Romans 4:5 NASB)

His faith, his believing, is what was credited as righteousness. Not what he did. The only justification that what he did did accomplish was justify him in regard to how James uses the word--to SHOW one to be righteous. That's not the same as being MADE righteous, the way Paul uses the word. Justified really does have at least two very distinct definitions and the context of James' and Paul's letters indicate which definition they are teaching about. To say they are using the exact same definition is to put them in direct contradiction to each other.

 

[smaller]

John 6:29
Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

John 6:47
Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life.

 

[dadof10]

I normally quote the NASB, but for some reason the online Bible I use keeps resetting back to NIV. But anyway, this makes the contradiction all the more evident if one insists that justified only has one meaning and James and Paul together are using the word to mean 'make' one righteous.

"24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone." (James 2:24 NASB)

I'm not able to spend much time on line today. So I can't address much at this time.

No problem. Brains come before theology...

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Justification is a process, not a one time event, as is salvation. The case of Abraham makes this point very well.

You have it exactly reversed.

Justification is the one time event that happens the instant we believe (Romans 10:10 NASB).
Salvation begins from that moment forward and is completed on the Day of Wrath when we are delivered (saved) from the wrath of God against all of mankind (1 Thessalonians 1:10 NASB).

 

[smaller]

Or your attempt was to distract away from what Paul means by "works" with talk about "iniquities and sins". You posted a verse assuming works means "all deeds" (at least I think that's your point). All I want you to do is tell me why I should read "baptism, charity, etc." into the word "works" in Paul's letters, that's all.

How you and I hear matters of baptism, charity, will obviously vary as we see differently, that being, I see no condemnation possible to any believer and you hold those conveyances to condemn believers.

John 5:24
Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

The first things christian religious sectarianism does is to potentially condemn these, in their rituals for not doing so. And in this they are fatally wrong, and have done what Jesus said will not happen.

Those who believe, their iniquites are forgiven, their sins are covered, and these have eternal life by the attribution of Christ and our faith that HE IS ABLE to perform, what He has promised.

We await the final "change" out of our vile body. That body that people seek to justify by works is, as a matter of fact, vile regardless of any works.

 

[JLB]

Then you put them in direct contradiction to each other.

Let's insert Paul's use of the word 'justified' into James' teaching and we'll see how you do just that:

"24 You see that a person is justified (made righteous) by what he does and not by faith alone." (James 2:24 NIV)

"5 However, to the man who does not work but trusts God who justifies the wicked (makes them righteous through their trust, not their work), his faith is credited as righteousness." (Romans 4:5 NIV)

You can't have it both ways. Either faith by itself makes a person righteous, or faith in conjunction with what they do makes us righteous. But this contradiction does not exist if you understand from the context that James is using the word 'justified' in regard to showing oneself to be righteous by what they do, not making oneself righteous by what they do:

"Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by what I do." (James 2:18 NIV)

You put them in contradiction by saying they are teaching different precepts of "another" righteousness other than the righteousness of faith.

Paul teaches believing with obedience.

James teaches believing with obedience.

Are demons righteous because they believe?

JLB

 

[Jethro Bodine]

You put them in contradiction by saying they are teaching different precepts of "another" righteousness other than the righteousness of faith.

I have no idea what you're talking about.

Paul teaches believing with obedience.

But he does not teach that the obedience is the actual part that makes one legally righteous. He teaches that the believing part does that (Romans 10:10 NASB). This is the point you seem to be failing to acknowledge and address.

James teaches believing with obedience.

He does, but James does not teach that the obedience itself makes one legally righteous, but rather shows one to be righteous (James 2:18 NASB).

Are demons righteous because they believe?

They don't believe unto justification. How do we know? They do not have works to validate their 'faith' as the faith that makes a person legally righteous in God's sight. Even if they did, their works would not be what makes them righteous. Believing does that all by itself. Works would only show them to have the righteousness that comes by believing apart from works (Romans 4:6 NASB). This is James' point. Works are necessary for salvation because the faith that justifies apart from works can not be separated from the works that faith produces.