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There's no need to change it, since the Bible is completely compatible with evolution. It would have to be; they were both made by the same Person.

The bible tells us Eve was made after Adam and from Adams rib...how is that compatable with the bible?



Adam and Eve disobeyed God. No problem for evolution there, either.

Yes, the Adam and Eve mentioned in the bible. The Theo-Evos believe in a different non-biblical Adam and Eve.

It should be interesting to see how you get yourself out of this mess.
 
IF you want to believe God did it, ok I'm fine with that. I'm not sure what you are getting at with science of the gaps. Science is an ever ongoing process of research. Its a method, not an all encompassing answer book. :tongue

I have no reason at all to believe organelle and their complex sophistication evolved. None.
 
I have no reason at all to believe organelle and their complex sophistication evolved. None.
Sure I can understand that on an every day usage and with your faith it doesn't matter if they evolved or were created. I get that most science to the every day person isn't all that useful. My entire point of why I have discussions in this science forum is to just explain why science as a concept and how its taught doesn't simply use ID. I just try to clear up misconceptions with how science works and what has been said vs some of the conspiracy theory stuff I've heard from some evangelical and apologetic groups that spread misinformation and lies about what the theory actually says and how its used.
 
Sure I can understand that on an every day usage and with your faith it doesn't matter if they evolved or were created. I get that most science to the every day person isn't all that useful. My entire point of why I have discussions in this science forum is to just explain why science as a concept and how its taught doesn't simply use ID. I just try to clear up misconceptions with how science works and what has been said vs some of the conspiracy theory stuff I've heard from some evangelical and apologetic groups that spread misinformation and lies about what the theory actually says and how its used.

Well, considering ID is a possibility...and I believe it to be the truth...it can be and is science.
 
The bible tells us Eve was made after Adam and from Adams rib...how is that compatable with the bible?

Because parables and allegories are commonly found in the Bible. So it's not an error.

Yes, the Adam and Eve mentioned in the bible. The Theo-Evos believe in a different non-biblical Adam and Eve.

Christians who accept evolution believe they were the two original people who disobeyed God. What do YE creationists believe?

It should be interesting to see how you get yourself out of this mess.

It's only a mess for YE creationists. If you're willing to accept the Bible as it is, without the modern revisionism of YE creationism, there's no mess at all.
 
I can do the same thing with a fork, spork and spoon.

Nope. here's why. Artifacts are designed, not evolved. You picked artifacts, because if you used living things, your belief wouldn't work.

So let's take a look:

What organelle would be absolutely essential to a living organism, say a single-celled organism? What could not do without?

Obviously, the cell membrane. Without something to define "inside" and "outside" there can be no life. So it's not unexpected that the cell membrane is the simplest organelle,and can spontaneously self-assemble. It's also made from materials that would be readily available in pre-biotic Earth.

Want to learn more?
 
Because parables and allegories are commonly found in the Bible. So it's not an error.
Then why did Paul in his letter to Timothy present it as historical and literal?


Christians who accept evolution believe they were the two original people who disobeyed God. What do YE creationists believe?

They believe there was ONLY two...with Eve being the mother of all. I understand Theo-Evos don't accept that view. Their view slanders the bible with their Adam and Eve being part of a population already in existence.



It's only a mess for YE creationists. If you're willing to accept the Bible as it is, without the modern revisionism of YE creationism, there's no mess at all.

A mess for YE creationist? Eve was made from Adams rib.....how is that a mess for YE creationist and not Theo-evos?
 
Nope. here's why. Artifacts are designed, not evolved. You picked artifacts, because if you used living things, your belief wouldn't work.

So let's take a look:

What organelle would be absolutely essential to a living organism, say a single-celled organism? What could not do without?

Obviously, the cell membrane. Without something to define "inside" and "outside" there can be no life. So it's not unexpected that the cell membrane is the simplest organelle,and can spontaneously self-assemble. It's also made from materials that would be readily available in pre-biotic Earth.

Want to learn more?

And if organelle had wings they could fly.
 
Barbarian offers:
No. According to the guys who invented it, it's a religious doctrine. Would you like me to show you?

Sure, show me.

From the "Wedge Document", meant to be internal only, accidentally released:

Governing Goals
• To defeat scientific materialism and its destructive moral, cultural and political legacies.
• To replace materialistic explanations with the theistic understanding that nature and human beings are created by God.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wedge_strategy

For example, the question of why whales swim with up-and-down motions, while fish swim with side-to-side motions:

Scientific explanation: Whales evolved from legged mammals which swam in a modified running motion.
ID explanation: God designed them to swim that way.

The first depends on evidence and leads to new discoveries. The second is a religious belief.

There are many IDers (mostly the few biologists in the movement) who acknowledge the fact of evolution, but add their religious ideas into it in various ways. Michael Behe, for example, says common descent is a fact, but God had to step in and make a few miracles every now and then to make it work.

IDer Michael Denton, who seems to be a deist of sorts, says:
It is important to emphasize at the outset that the argument presented here is entirely consistent with the basic naturalistic assumption of modern science--that the cosmos is a seamless unity which can be comprehended in its entirety by human reason and in which all phenomena, including life and evolution and the origin of man, are ultimately explicable in terms of natural processes. This is an assumption which is entirely opposed to that of the so-called "special creationist school." According to special creationism, living organisms are not natural forms, whose origin and design were built into the laws of nature from the beginning, but rather contingent forms analogous in essence to human artifacts, the result of a series of supernatural acts, involving God's direct intervention in the course of nature, each of which involved the suspension of natural law. Contrary to the creationist position, the whole argument presented here is critically dependent on the presumption of the unbroken continuity of the organic world--that is, on the reality of organic evolution and on the presumption that all living organisms on earth are natural forms in the profoundest sense of the word, no less natural than salt crystals, atoms, waterfalls, or galaxies.


In large measure, therefore, the teleological argument presented here and the special creationist worldview are mutually exclusive accounts of the world. In the last analysis, evidence for one is evidence against the other. Put simply, the more convincing is the evidence for believing that the world is prefabricated to the end of life, that the design is built into the laws of nature, the less credible becomes the special creationist worldview.

Michael Denton Nature's Destiny

Both of these biologists are members of the Discovery Institute, which is the organization promoting the doctrine of ID. Obviously, a creationist of the normal YE variety could not consistently support ID. But few of the faithful know about the deistic roots of ID.
 
And if organelle had wings they could fly.

But in the early earth seas, there were lipids and phosphates and these can self assemble into closed vacuoles.

There are probably more efficient possible cell membranes, but once established, it seemed impossible for organisms to evolve a better one, because there is no intermediate form. So we retain this very simple and primitive cell membrane in every living thing in the world.
The work-around are protein molecules which can embed in the cell membrane and actively transport materials in and out of the cell.

Would you like to learn more about the evolution of organelles?
 
Then why did Paul in his letter to Timothy present it as historical and literal?

He didn't. He presented it as the Bible does, as figurative. He never said it was historical or literal. That's your addition to his words.

They believe there was ONLY two...with Eve being the mother of all.

Which is nicely consistent with evolutionary theory.

I understand Theo-Evos don't accept that view.

Most Christians who acknowledge the fact of evolution think we started with a single pair of humans. Even creationists agree with that.

Their view slanders the bible with their Adam and Eve being part of a population already in existence.

Mankind came from two humans to whom God gave immortal souls and who became aware of good and evil. Whether they were poofed into existence magically or came from an existing population does not matter.

A mess for YE creationist?

Yep. And so to make their new story credible, they have to keep inventing new, non-scriptural miracles to cover the problems.

Eve was made from Adams rib.....how is that a mess for YE creationist

X and Y chromosomes. Of course you can just pull another miracle out of the hat and declare that God poofed another X chromosome into each cell, and removed all the Y chromosomes. But there are deeper problems with that, so you'll need a few more new miracles. And probably more, as we learn more about the genome.

But if you accept the way He actually did it, you don't need to invent miracles or rewrite the Bible. You can just accept it as it is.
 
Barbarian offers:
No. According to the guys who invented it, it's a religious doctrine. Would you like me to show you?



From the "Wedge Document", meant to be internal only, accidentally released:

Governing Goals
• To defeat scientific materialism and its destructive moral, cultural and political legacies.
• To replace materialistic explanations with the theistic understanding that nature and human beings are created by God.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wedge_strategy

For example, the question of why whales swim with up-and-down motions, while fish swim with side-to-side motions:

Scientific explanation: Whales evolved from legged mammals which swam in a modified running motion.
ID explanation: God designed them to swim that way.

The first depends on evidence and leads to new discoveries. The second is a religious belief.

There are many IDers (mostly the few biologists in the movement) who acknowledge the fact of evolution, but add their religious ideas into it in various ways. Michael Behe, for example, says common descent is a fact, but God had to step in and make a few miracles every now and then to make it work.

IDer Michael Denton, who seems to be a deist of sorts, says:
It is important to emphasize at the outset that the argument presented here is entirely consistent with the basic naturalistic assumption of modern science--that the cosmos is a seamless unity which can be comprehended in its entirety by human reason and in which all phenomena, including life and evolution and the origin of man, are ultimately explicable in terms of natural processes. This is an assumption which is entirely opposed to that of the so-called "special creationist school." According to special creationism, living organisms are not natural forms, whose origin and design were built into the laws of nature from the beginning, but rather contingent forms analogous in essence to human artifacts, the result of a series of supernatural acts, involving God's direct intervention in the course of nature, each of which involved the suspension of natural law. Contrary to the creationist position, the whole argument presented here is critically dependent on the presumption of the unbroken continuity of the organic world--that is, on the reality of organic evolution and on the presumption that all living organisms on earth are natural forms in the profoundest sense of the word, no less natural than salt crystals, atoms, waterfalls, or galaxies.


In large measure, therefore, the teleological argument presented here and the special creationist worldview are mutually exclusive accounts of the world. In the last analysis, evidence for one is evidence against the other. Put simply, the more convincing is the evidence for believing that the world is prefabricated to the end of life, that the design is built into the laws of nature, the less credible becomes the special creationist worldview.

Michael Denton Nature's Destiny

Both of these biologists are members of the Discovery Institute, which is the organization promoting the doctrine of ID. Obviously, a creationist of the normal YE variety could not consistently support ID. But few of the faithful know about the deistic roots of ID.

I can brush all of your hog wash away in one sweep.....Mt Rushmore was intelligently designed....and there was no religious doctrine in determining that.

NEXT
 
When i asked....Then why did Paul in his letter to Timothy present it as historical and literal?
The reply was...
He didn't. He presented it as the Bible does, as figurative. He never said it was historical or literal. That's your addition to his words.

Why would Paul instruct women on how to act based upon something that was figurative? Something that never happened?

2 Cor 11:3 also presents Genesis as historical and literal...But I am afraid that as the serpent deceived Eve by his cunning, your thoughts will be led astray from a sincere and pure devotion to Christ.

Did I mention that verse also describes part of the fall?...something Theo-evoism can't.

Oh, one more thing...where did Paul say it was figurative? That seems to be your addition to the bible.
 

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